Average Joe

I'm thinking that perhaps you read too little. Since you apparently don't want to concede that the gentiles in America are Americans or that the native Americans are of Lamanite descent perhaps reading this will help your education: "A Mission to the Lamanites."

My view on faiths has always been that if your going to be a mormon, catholic, baptist, methodist, evangelical, Buddhist, hindu, whatever, you need to be the best (most righteous) you can be according to the light your given...and if you are you'll be lead to greater light.

I had heard last Sunday but couldn't find a news report...thank you for sharing this.

A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God-he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body. It is my judgment that any man or woman can do more to conform to the laws of God in one year in this life than they could in ten years when they are dead. The spirit only can repent and change, and then the battle has to go forward with the flesh afterwards. It is much easier to overcome and serve the Lord when both flesh and spirit are combined as one. This is the time when men are more pliable and susceptible. When clay is pliable, it is much easier to change than when it gets hard and sets. "The Three Degrees of Glory", Elder Melvin J. Ballard (Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles) - (Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, p.234-261, Delivered at the Ogden Tabernacle )

we all struggle in our own areas but your reply touched on a point I had often wondered about lately. How many of us are just "living the gospel" (going through the correct motions) and how many are "living the gospel" with the desire to see our callings and elections made sure...? Obedience is good. Obedience coupled with desire is better. Just a thought I've been having...or as Joseph Smith put it: "After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, which is the first comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other comforter, which the Lord has promised the Saints." Joseph Smith – TPJS, p. 150.

Close but not exactly. We believe that all children who died under 8 years old are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom, and we believe that all who died without accountability [the mental capacity of an 8 year old] are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom. We also believed that all [regardless of religion or lack thereof] who would have accepted the gospel with all their heart if they had been able to hear it will be saved in the Celestial Kingdom. We believe that after death all who have lived on earth will be taught the principles of the gospel and have the ordinances preformed for them by proxy - for them to accept or reject, their choice - after which they will be assigned the kingdom their lives merit. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed on their behalf (having not rejected the gospel in life) and have lived a life worthy of the Celestial Kingdom shall enter into it. Therefore the celestial kingdom may not be as small as we tend to think,

This is true. However, I was going by D&C 76:103 [which I had not included in my original post] which referred to those of the telestial kingdom as: "These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie".

They are in essence building blocks, one adding upon the other with baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost when one is confirmed a member being the only ordinances we are sure are accomplished by LDS members assigned telestial glory. Again, I was looking at D&C 76:101 "neither the [singular/all encompassing] everlasting covenant." as meaning the ultimate summation of - temple marriage - being the largest reason for being assigned a telestial glory...but this is just conjecture on my part.

I'll spring for the dessert and the non-alcoholic beverage of his choice.

I considered this in the light of what it said about the terrestrial kingdom. Obviously they received baptism for membership. Did they reject receiving the priesthood? Possibly. A lack of valiance in it leads one to the terrestrial kingdom. But again, rejecting the priesthood or endowment is ultimately rejecting the opportunity for the marriage covenant. Just some thoughts I had...

Well, it was the prime spiritual directive mentioned in creation: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth…” (Gen. 1:27-28).

Just a couple thoughts about what is mentioned concerning the LDS of the terrestial and telestial kingdoms in D&C 76. Terrestial v. 79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. Apparently these are not valiant [showing courage or determination] in church service and so the question becomes, what is valiance – serving until one’s caling and election is made sure? Telestial v. 101 But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Marrying outside the covenant or not marrying [in the covenant even] when opportunity is present is enough to also keep one out of the Terrestial kingdom. If commission of sexual transgression [fornication and adultery] are like unto murder in seriousness, not being married in the everlasting covenant seems to be the sin of omission side of the coin. Any thoughts?

Not only does 3 Nephi chapter 21[vs 12] speak of a remnant of Jacob" being in the midst of the Gentiles/Americans, "as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver." The prophecy given 25 December 1832 reads [D&C 87] : 1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war. 5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants [of Jacob] who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. 6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; 7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. 8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. However, the prophecy does not tie slave rebellions directly to the Civil War. After discussing the call on other nations for assistance, the prophecy reads: 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.(D&C 87:4) The phrase "it came to pass," and related forms generally indicates a transition in subject or time. The prophecy is clear that the revolt of slaves will come "after many days," which in scriptural language (which sees Jesus' second coming as "near," and "even at the door") generally suggests a fairly long period of time. Elder Joseph L. Wirthlin suggested a further fulfillment: “I believe, brethren and sisters, that it was intended that this referred to slaves all over the world.” Elder Wirthlin mentioned specifically the inhabitants of the former Soviet Union and its satellites and other parts of the world “where the rights and the privilege to worship God and to come to a knowledge that Jesus Christ is his Son is denied them” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1958, p. 32).

I imagine its quite the gathering considering how many lives he's touched in 92 years.

lol, nice try On the bright side I think the Lord appreciates a good sense of humor :)

My prayers are with his family and the prophet right now... I wonder if he's challenged Gordon B. Hinckley and David Haight to a race yet? :).

I'm a redneck, but I'm an honest redneck so I'll just say that scripture doesn't really bother me. Repent or be cursed. If the righteous marry outside of the covenant and marry those who are living contrary to the commandments of God, they too shall be cursed. I realize your personal situation lies outside the living the commandments of God in certain areas. I suspect that's why you feel that it could offend but I don't know..however, I'll just be honest here and say I think your caught in the horns of a dilemma as Elijah put it in 1st Kings 18:21: "How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word." The spirit is working on you to get your life back in line with what the Lord deems acceptable, and as long as you continue to hesitate between two opinions Satan will continue to to throw false narratives at you to cause you to justify not ultimately coming to a decision on the side of the Lord.

Your right. We tend to gravitate to certain ones who speak while others put us to sleep...perhaps the best reason for reading the conference issues of The Ensign, black and white is a great equalizer. And I also extend my prayers to both Elder Perry and his family, and the prophet as he ponders the Lord's will for the future of the quorum of the twelve apostles.

scriptures may have two (or more) meanings such as Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Here Lucifer is symbolic of both Satan and the king of Babylon. With Joel: “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: “And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. “And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come." (Joel 2:28–31). The words "And it shall come to pass afterward" find fulfillment in the fact that both Peter and President Hinckley lived in times when the fullness of the gospel was restored with all its authority and ordinances. Peter in the last days before the Great Apostasy and G.B.H. in the last days before the second coming. “…the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Rev. 19:10). Visions and dreams are gifts of the spirit which according to Job chapter 33: 15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; 16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, 17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. 18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword. Scriptures are often referred to as "a type of things to come" as in a current incident is a type of a future incident such Abinadi telling king Noah whatever punishment was given to him would be returned on those inflicting the punishment. Just because two prophets in different eras said a scripture was fulfilled doesn't make one wrong and the other right.

Google: Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote - A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives. Next Google: An interview by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer. Pick whichever sources seem the most or least reputable to you, whichever you prefer. Once you have done that prayerfully read 3 Nephi chapter 21 including the chapter heading. What does it say is going to happen to an unrepentant America?

You either have not read or have not understood 3 Nephi chapter 21. Take some time off away from the links and give it a prayerful read.

The Book of Mormon says your wrong. 3 Nephi Chapter 21 Israel will be gathered when the Book of Mormon comes forth—The Gentiles will be established as a free people in America—They will be saved if they believe and obey; otherwise, they will be cut off and destroyed—Israel will build the New Jerusalem, and the lost tribes will return. About A.D. 34. 11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant. 12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. 13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off. 14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots; 15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds; 16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers; 17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands; 18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities. 20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel; 21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. //// 12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Who are the Lord's people who are a remnant of Jacob? Native Americans and Hispanic Americans, the descendants of the Lamanites. So when you watch or read the news about open borders what you are witnessing is the the unfolding of prophesy - the remnant of Jacob who the Lord is placing in the midst of the Gentiles, who as the chapter heading states: have been established as a free people in America...Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles [Americans] except they repent.

Thanks for the recommend. I too believe a 2nd Civil War and WW3 are coming. I also believe that true power of the priesthood will be manifest during these trials. It won't be enough to be a priesthood holder, one will need to be a priesthood bearer.

A couple of observations: 1. Joseph Smith seemed to link it with crop failure and famine. 2. Orson Pratt and Spencer W. Kimball indicated manufacture and stores will cease operating for the most part. Service providing jobs made up 79.9% of the U.S. Employment by major industry sector (source). 3. In addition to dollar depreciation, based on Census Bureau data, the number of Americans on welfare in the fourth quarter of 2011 totaled 108,592,000, adding up to 35.4 percent of Americans. 4. For now, 58.7 per cent of American adults are working if the actual employment-population ratio is taken into consideration, leaving about 82 million, or almost 41 per cent of people unemployed. Only 8 per cent, however, are even interested in work, leaving 33 per cent of Americans not only jobless — but with no desire for work.

Any thoughts on the 2nd U.S. Civil War? This was a letter from Nephi Packard to A. Milton Musser on July 24, 1896: "... My brother, Noah Packard, says that he heard the Prophet Joseph say that the next great (U.S. civil) war after the war of the rebellion (the Civil War of the 1860's between the North and the South) would commence in a little town now called Chicago but at that time it would have grown to be a very large city. And another brother told me that the Prophet said that the cause of the next great trouble of the United States would be the depreciation of the currency of the United States. I believe I have given you all the facts in as short and concise manner as possible." Second Great Rebellion or Chicago Quote - A. Milton Musser papers, LDS Church Archives. 1913 is when the Federal Reserve, which is actually a privately-owned central bank, took over the US banking system. The purchasing power of the US dollar since 1913 has been pretty much downhill since the Fed took over. In fact, the dollar has lost over 96% of its value. That means today’s dollar would be worth less than 4 cents back in 1913 (Source). The dollar is also losing its reserve currency status (see this). Another quote regarding the Civil War itself comes from an interview by Dr. Poulson with David Whitmer, printed in the Deseret News on Friday, August 16, 1878: Question: When will the temple be built in Independence? Answer: Right after the great tribulation is over Question: What do you mean by that? Answer: A civil war more bloody and cruel than the rebellion. It will be the smashing up of this nation, about which time the second great work has to be done, a work like Joseph did, and the translation of the sealed plates and peace all over. “What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South. Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture, there will be too much bloodshed--too much mobocracy--too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms and they will remain uncultivated, and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent.” - O PRATT, JD 20:151 “The little gardens and a few trees are very valuable. I remember when the sisters used to say, `well, but we could buy it at the store a lot cheaper than we could put it up.' But that isn't quite the answer, is it, Sister Spafford? Because there will become a time when there isn't a store.” - Spencer W. Kimball (General Conference, April 1974) I saw men hunting the lives of their own sons, and brother murdering brother, women killing their own daughters, and daughters seeking the lives of their mothers. I saw armies arrayed against armies. I saw blood, desolation, fires. The Son of man has said that the mother shall be against the daughters, and the daughter against the mother. These things are at our doors. They will follow the Saints of God from city to city. Satan will rage, and the spirit of the devil is now enraged. I know not how soon these things will take place; but with a view of them, shall I cry peace? No; I will lift up my voice and testify of them. How long you will have good crops, and the famine be kept off, I do not know; when the fig tree leaves, know then that the summer is nigh at hand. - J SMITH, TPJS :161