Average Joe

Sorry...I shouldn't have let you in on our secret...but like J. Golden Kimball, I repent to fast

Most of us are familiar with baptism. When we look for the proper form we think of these scriptures: Days of Enoch And he gave unto me [Enoch] a commandment that I should baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, which is full of grace and truth, and of the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son. Moses 7:11 After Christ appears in the new world And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. 3 Ne. 11:24-25 Modern era The person who is called of God and has authority from Jesus Christ to baptize, shall go down into the water with the person who has presented himself or herself for baptism, and shall say, calling him or her by name: Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Doctrine and Covenants 20:73 Pretty standard fare. So what are your thoughts on Alma the Elder? And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. Mosiah 18:12-13

secret code for those awaiting "the call out"

I find this paragraph from Roberts to be along my line of thinking in that an intelligence is capable of informed choice between what is bad or good in terms if him/herself and being capable of such reasoning must have a reason to do so for what would an option-less eternity be but hell? "There is in that complex thing we call man an intelligent entity, uncreated, self existent, indestructible. He--for that entity is a person, because, as we shall see, he is possessed of powers that go with personality only, hence that entity is "he," not "it,"--he is eternal as God is; co-existent, in fact, with God; of the same kind of substance or essence with deity, though confessedly inferior in degree of intelligence and power to God. One must needs think that the name of this eternal entity--what God calls him--conveys to the mind some idea of his nature. He is called an "intelligence;" and this I believe is descriptive of him. That is, intelligence is the entity's chief characteristic. If this be a true deduction, then the entity must be self-conscious. He must have the power to distinguish himself from other things--the "me" from the "not me." He must have power of deliberation, by which he sets over one thing against another; with power also to form a judgment that this or that is a better thing or state than this or that. Also there goes with this idea of intelligence a power of choosing one thing instead of another, one state rather than another. These powers are inseparably connected with any idea that may be formed of an intelligence. One cannot conceive of intelligence existing without these qualities any more than he can conceive of an object existing in space without dimensions. The phrase, "the light of truth" is given in one of the revelations as the equivalent for an "intelligence" here discussed; by which it is meant to be understood, as I think, that intelligent entities perceive the truth, are conscious of the truth, they know that which is, hence "the light of truth," "intelligence." Let it be observed that I say nothing as to the mode of the existence of these intelligences, beyond the fact of their eternity. But of their form, or the manner of their subsistence nothing, so far as I know, has been revealed, and hence we are without means of knowing anything about the modes of their existence beyond the fact of it, and the essential qualities they possess, which already have been pointed out."

welcome back at ya :)

From the King Follett Sermon: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. " From Lorenzo Snow we have the following couplet: "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'' This being true, Heavenly Father at one point must have passed from being an intelligence, a spirit, a mortal and a Celestial Resurrected being. John 5:19 states: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." Again from the King Follett Sermon: "The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again." Finally in the King Follett Sermon we read: " If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. [from Rev. 1:6 "...And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father."] Long story short, even God began as an intelligence before being spiritually begotten by a heavenly Father, successfully progressing through mortality to become a celestial resurrected God in his own right.

OK, I see what your saying :) For me it seems that if there are tests/choices between right and wrong in mortality, and the were tests/choices between right and wrong in premortality, that there should also have been some kind of tests or choices as intelligences - not as you say, "the full spectrum" - in premortality how could we know what mortality would be like with the veil in place over our minds? Yet, the decision made there cost 1/3 of the host of heaven a chance at mortal life.

Thanks, several including yourself have contributed good ideas here. And yes I realize it is speculative but I find good conversation followed by prayerful pondering often sheds new light on things. I appreciate you B.F. Roberts url, I'll need to read it through a couple of times before commenting on it :)

So your saying that intelligences have always been aware of good and evil but they feared to try either, and so without experience they had no knowledge? If that's what you meant, how could there be progression?

Birth is without a doubt when sin conceives in us in mortality. However, as Mormon points out: "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them...And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world." (Moroni 8:11-12) As I pointed out elsewhere, Christ's disciples certainly thought it was possible to sin in pre-mortality. And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" John 9:2 Obviously the disciples felt that there was pre-mortal sin or they wouldn't have asked the question that way. In the Pearl of Great Price we read: "For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." Moses 5: 24 To be perdition "before the world" you certainly had to sin. So we can see that the atonement must apply to both mortality and pre-mortality. And I have a feeling we had a disposition to good or evil as intelligences before being born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father...but that's just my opinion.

And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?" John 9:2 Obviously the disciples felt that there was pre-mortal sin or they wouldn't have asked the question that way. In the Pearl of Great Price we read: "For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." Moses 5: 24 So we can see that the atonement must apply to both mortality and pre-mortality. Now D&C 88:37-38 states: "And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions." So apparently your "Laws induce opposition" are in effect and Joseph Smith taught “Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. . . . Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.353-354). I lean towards intelligences having good or evil dispositions prior to being born as spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

lol...on this I don't know that there's a "right" answer unless somebody has had a vision or revelation their not sharing with the rest of us

In my navy days we could see stars from one end of the horizon to the other...but it still wasn't worth the lack of land. Welcome aboard!

D&C 88:37-38 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. ​There is a Celestial law all must abide by to enter into the Celestial kingdom after the resurrection. No unclean thing can enter into the Celestial kingdom after the resurrection. There is still agency but all there have yielded their will to the Fathers. There are none to tempt or entice the spirit children to do evil there...unless you believe in rogue celestial beings willing to be cast out of the Celestial kingdom; or perhaps at certain stages of development we were given Adam and Eve type choices designed to lead us toward or away from God. On one hand there's wisdom or the ability to discern between good and evil. Is it like the other talents we develop to a greater or lesser extent before coming to mortality? Were some so lacking in wisdom that pride so easily lead them astray? On the other hand, our intelligence, that which makes us who we are...we know there were various levels of intelligence like plants, animals, human...Could our pre-spirit life intelligence been prone to unrighteousness? There must needs be opposition in all things. If our Heavenly Father knew of and dealt with "intelligences" then wouldn't a source of evil also needs be allowed to give opposition?

Just curious to see if anyone has any thoughts about this. When did evil first conceive in us, as intelligences or as spirit children of our Heavenly Father?

lol, thanks. Rather be out hiking than anywhere else but lately seldom get the chance :)

not that I know of

lol, "sort of" made my day! sounds like you know me!

There is that which seeks to draw us out Out of our comfort zones And then which seeks to draw us in Shadow cast And sunlight dappled The forest steeped in green I love the gold-green of sun touched leaves Which lie darker in the shadows below And the soft rustle of leaves upon the breeze Aflutter on swaying boughs Mingled with the chirp and whistles of birds Which call from tree to tree It is here that I hear my God speak He who is natures God

The Infinite Atonement by Tad R. Callister of the Seventy is an insightful look at various aspects of the atonement if your looking for something to supplement your studies.

Hi there! Just dream big, live large and stay humble - and keep a bowl of ice cream handy and life can be good

Haven't been out that way in years, at least back before the temple was built. Luckily there are temples in Georgia, North and South Carolina now so I don't have to move unless I want to.

Guess what? They (like all of us one day will) died. Guess what else, Millions, maybe billions never heard the gospel even when the church/priesthood has been on the earth. You know what else? They died too. If a day is a thousand years to God then mortality is the twinkling of an eye. Guess what else, through the atonement of Christ children under 8 years old are saved in Christ, all those who were unaccountable in life are saved in Christ, and all the those who would have accepted the gospel if they had been permitted to receive it and live it faithfully in mortality would be saved. Joseph Smith saw a vision of the future in which his parents, who were still alive at the time were in Heaven with Alvin (his older brother who had died previous to the vision). He was puzzled that Alvin could receive the highest level of exaltation without having been baptized, but in the vision, he was assured that those who died faithful would be rewarded with exaltation. There are a few million LDS and a few billion non-members in the world today. The greatest missionary work has always taken place on the other side of the veil. Temple work will the great work of the millennium here on earth. In that respect I think your comment is very short sighted. God's plan foreknew and planned for the apostasies of this world.

lucky your not me, that could get awkward for both of us!

Thanks. Avoided the temptation of Utah living I see