JojoBag

First off, I'll go my Elder Bednar's definition of intelligence, as in "the glory of God is intelligence." Intelligence consists of three things. 1. Gaining spiritual knowledge. There is a lot of useless knowledge out there, especially many things taught in school. 2. Receive an understanding of that knowledge through the Holy Spirit. 3. Implementing that knowledge and understanding in your life. Regarding modesty, what I've done s make an observation and compared it to the genuine church standards. I see a major difference between what most LDS think is modest and what is actually modest. I'll say it again. Look on the church web site to see what the standards are. The so-called "standards of modesty" the majority of men and women in the church keep are heavily influenced by the world. I believe the reason for this is a lack of knowledge. As for the food storage, one thing I forgot to say was that the Elders making the comments started out with, "I don't need wheat," just prior to their comments about alfalfa and cows. Again, they lack knowledge. One of the prophecies for the last days was that live stock would be wiped out. This has started. If you know anything about what is happening in the poultry industry, you will realize that the bird flu has resulted in nearly 100 million birds being killed in the U.S. and it's getting worse. The vast majority of LDS simply have a very serious lack of knowledge. It is going to cost them their eternal salvation.

As I was reading the 28th chapter of 2nd Nephi in the Book of Mormon this morning, I was struck by how well many Latter-day Saints are fulfilling the prophecies in this chapter: “All is well in Zion.” I've lived in three different countries and the attitude is the same no matter where I've been. It doesn't change from country to country or ward to ward. All too many members are content with believing that they will learn everything they need to know to gain their exaltation from attending church. I like to talk to various members regarding various points of doctrine and principle. I listen to comments made in priesthood and Sunday school and it's pretty much the same thing. Many members are uninformed as to what has been taught by church leaders in the past and even now. They do nothing to gain knowledge and intelligence. For that matter, they don't even know what is the definition of intelligence. When I moved back to the U.S., the first thing I did was to implement a crash program to get my food storage and ordered a lot of wheat. I made announcements in Elder's Quorum that I was trying to get orders to make up a large enough order for the wheat to be delivered directly to my home. I made this announcement more than once. Not one single person was interested. My neighbor did make a sizable order. What I did get were some comments that left me shaking my head. The Elder's Quorum president said that he had a bunch of alfalfa and then one of his counselors said he had a couple cows and they could trade. Other comments involved hunting, etc. When I talked to my neighbor and asked about buying one of their calves to raise and slaughter, she told me her husband wouldn't even slaughter one for his own family. He got too much money for each cow and they could buy their beef from the store. All was well in Zion. This is the prevailing attitude in every single ward I've ever been in. There is an interesting correlation that may or may not mean anything, but it is interesting. I was reading the book, “Life Everlasting,” by Duane Crowther and came across a quote by Elder Heber C. Kimball. He doubted that more than 5% of Latter-day Saints would enter the Celestial Kingdom. Then, several months later, I read a conference report that cited a 1976 study from the University of Utah regarding the food storage of LDS. Only 5% had a year supply of grain products. By itself, this correlation doesn't mean all that much, but when I look at other items, I begin to think that Elder Kimball was right. The activity rate of the church is somewhere around 35% and among the YSA it is only 15%. I look at the home teaching rates, which aren't very good at all. In the last 22 years I've only had one consistent home teacher. I hear the same thing, time and time again from other members. In the past three months, I've asked the Elder's Quorum president four times for a home teaching route and have yet to be assigned one. Then I look at things like modesty. Modesty is the foundation stone of chastity. What I see are women and the men who condone it, dressing to what they think is modest, yet is against what you see as examples on the church web site. What I see among the members is modesty according to the world. I also see members, both men and women who have the latest, fancy fashions thinking they are being modest. This goes completely against scripture. What do your clothes look like? I see both sides of the coin. The world tells men and women, “dress for success, dress for attention, to look sharp, to stand out from the crowd; if you've got it, flaunt it, etc.” Then I see those who don't care one bit what they look like. You get the 300 pound woman in yoga pants or the 400 pound man in Speedo's and tank top that doesn't cover his belly. Then there are those who dress, not to conform, not to get attention, but to conceal their body. It isn't that they are ashamed of their bodies, but they respect the temple God gave them. Their dress demonstrates their inner commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I'll once again go back to one of my pet peeves with the LDS: lack of knowledge. One of the most prevalent things I have found among the LDS is a contentment with thinking that they will be taught everything they need to know in Church: the basics. They don't come right out and say this, but it is obvious when I listen to their comments. Joseph Smith said that knowledge is salvation. The basics only give you a foundation for the necessary higher knowledge. The basics are attending church each week, reading the scriptures daily and praying twice each day. That's it. Saying that doing the basics are enough is like saying the average sixth grader knows enough to graduate from high school. What about the advanced subjects like regular temple attendance, faithful home/visiting teaching, family history work, church assignments, charity, etc. How about the one temple recommend question that always makes me think before I answer it: Are you honest in all your dealings? And then, there is faith. You can be a very nice person: giving, charitable, attend church, yadda, yadda, yadda, but if you don't have the necessary faith, you won't return to your Heavenly Father. Our faith is to be childlike. A child believes anything you tell him. Do we believe the correct principles we are taught or does our worldly education get in the way? We believe in Christ, but do we believe Christ? Do we believe that he can and will heal us? Do we believe that he his atonement will save us? I doubt my own ability to return to my Heavenly Father. I'm pretty sure that Elder Kimball was right.

Questions: 1. What is another name for America, authorized by the Book of Mormon? 2. Is a “seer” and a “prophet” the same thing? 3. Who is Zelph? 4. Where did Adam first offer sacrifice after he was cast out of the Garden of Eden? 5. In the D&C Section 61, it states that “no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.” What was one part of the fulfillment of this prophecy? 6. What is the name of God in the Adamic language? 7. What are the names of Noah's three sons and what geographical areas did they settle in after the flood? 8. What is the meaning of the name, “Israel?” 9. Which of the Twelve Tribes of Israel was Moses from? 10. How many elders make up a quorum? 11. What are the three elements of baptism? 12. What is the first principle of the gospel? 13. What are the three grand orders of the priesthood? 14. What are the three independent principles taught by Joseph Smith? 15. Satan can appear as an angel of light. Can he also appear in the sign of the dove? 16. Must a person hold the Melchizedek Priesthood in order to cast out evil spirits? 17. What is the meaning of Salvation? 18. What is the greatest and most important duty of the Church? 19. What is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven? Answers: 1. Land of Joseph Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 34 2. No. Mosiah 8:15-17 3. A white Lamanite In 1834, while the "Zion's Camp" expedition" was on its way to Missouri, some of the party exhumed from an ancient mound the skeleton of a man having a stone-pointed arrow between two of his ribs. The Prophet, in a vision of the past, discovered the identity of this skeleton, and informed his brethren that the man's name was Zelph, that he was "a white Lamanite," and had been killed in battle by the arrow found between his ribs." Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pgs. 45-46 4. Spring Hill, MO) In 1838, after the main body of the Church had moved to Missouri, the Saints built several towns and projected others in Caldwell and other counties of that State. One of those towns was at Spring Hill, Davis County, where the men who made the survey for a new settlement came upon the ruins of an ancient altar, situated on a wooded hill overlooking- the surrounding country. Straightway they reported to the Prophet their interesting find. He, upon beholding it, said to those who were with him : "There is the place where Adam offered up sacrifice after he was cast out of the Garden." Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 46, 5. Submarine warfare According to Elder Orson F. Whitney, submarine warfare during WWI was one part of the fulfilment of this prophecy. Saturday Night Thoughts, Pgs. 63-65 6. Ahman JD2:342 Orson Pratt, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 114 7. Japheth peopled Europe. Shem Asia, and Ham Africa. 8. Prince of God (Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 124) 9. Levi 10. 96 11. Spirit, water, blood. The Lord explained this principle to Adam thus: "Inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water and blood and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven, of water and of the spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten ; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory: "For by the Water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the Blood ye are sanctified." Orson F. Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, Pg. 255 12. To know for a certainty the character of God It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 13. 1. Melchizedek Priesthood 2. Patriarchal Authority 3. Levitical Priesthood Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and HC 6:249-254 14.The Spirit of God, the spirit of man, and the spirit of the devil. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 15. No. HC 5:260-61 16. No. Joseph Smith taught that the only qualification for casting out evil spirits is that a person be baptized into the Church and given the Gift of the Holy Ghost. HC 4:603 17. It means a man's being placed beyond the power of all his enemies. HC 5:392 18. To preach the gospel. HC 2:478 19. Knowledge given through Jesus Christ. (HC 5:388-89.)

Right on!

I fully understand your feelings. I am rather conflicted myself when it comes to things like depicting war. You are absolutely right when you say that people should study these things. I did serve in the Army and I was in law enforcement for 13 years. I've seen some of the worst possible side of life and I've seen the best. There is a very, very fine line when it comes to how much to teach your kids and how soon (how old). It's better for them to learn it from you, than from the world. As a kid, I studied WWII history. I read Guadalcanal Diary by Edward Tregaskis and every other book I could get my hands on. It gave me a very good idea of what war was like. I took my kids on ride-alongs while on patrol. My son is a black belt in Taekwondo and I even used him as back-up when I had a crowd of trouble makers. I didn't shelter my kids from the bad things of the world, but I tried to put those things in their proper perspective. I think one of the problems I have with movies is that it is a quick and dirty form of education. I would much rather have my kids read to learn. Then maybe watch the movie.

I haven't even gotten to this point in my comments. I completely agree with you. However, the media in its many forms is the major source of conditioning children to accept the world's standards. It's the Hollywood propaganda that promotes much of this. Then there is the fashion industry, which really is nothing more than an extension of Hollywood.

I can't avoid immodesty out in the world, but I can, for the most part, keep it out of my home, nor do I need to go fill my head with it by going to movies. The home is the cradle of virtue. It is where young minds are shaped and where the most important instruction goes on. If you start properly when your children are young, you will at least give them a better chance. I heard a song on the Mormon Channel that said that even though your children may disobey, they are always listening to what you say and watching every single thing you do. What you do speaks louder that what you say. The best possible instruction you can give your children is if the example you set is the same as what you say.

My number one complaint with the overwhelming majority of all movies, no matter their rating, is the lack of modesty in dress and speech (primarily dress). I do not swear and I'm trying to eliminate substitute swear words from my vocabulary. I cringe whenever I hear people swear. I feel diminished whenever I'm around bad language and I feel like getting a hefty shot of something spiritual to get rid of the residual bad feelings. The problem with watching movies that have inappropriately dressed characters is the same problem in the vast majority of TV and even animated movies. The Parent's Television Council did a study and found that 99% of supposedly “family friendly” TV shows contained adult content. If you think you can just ignore the “inappropriate” content without damage to your spirituality, I would suggest you reconsider this position. The problem with thinking that you really aren't paying attention to the immodestly dressed characters is that you are desensitizing yourself to immodesty. What is even worse, is that you are teaching your children that immodesty is really not necessary. Look at all the new Disney animated movies. There are plenty of cleavage shots, mermaids swimming around with nothing but a couple of shells covering their breasts and all the clothing hugs the figures of the heroine. All of it is designed to make them look “sexy.” If you are letting your children watch this stuff, you are responsible for desensitizing them and are conditioning them into accepting immodesty as normal. It won't matter what you may say regarding dressing modestly, your actions speak louder. You also condition them that it's OK to compromise the Gospel standards by modifying them or mingling them with the world's standards. This also will carry on into compromising other Gospel standards. Once girls and boys view immodesty as normal, the door is open to accepting other compromises into the law of chastity and other commandments. Both girls and boys begin thinking that they have to be sexy to be accepted and to be sexy, you have to dress and act sexy. As they get older, they come under more and more peer pressure to compromise more and more aspects of chastity until it is considered old fashioned. Another problem with allowing your children to look at inappropriate entertainment is that you are creating the foundation for the acceptance of and indulging in pornography. I say that because once you've desensitized them into accepting immodesty as normal, you've opened the door into viewing women/girls as objects. The problem of pornography is rampant in the church. I read a Deseret News article that said that 1 in 3 referrals to LDSSS is for pornography problems. I also have a report that says that as high as 60% of evangelical Christian men have a problem with porn; 30% for women. What does that say for the Church. I would consider the LDS to be in the evangelical category. It all stems from desensitizing your kids into thinking that immodesty is normal.

What about R-rated and PG-13 movies? Can we watch any of them, some of them or none of them? Personally, I don't watch any R-rated movies and the overwhelming majority of PG-13 movies. For that matter, I don't watch the majority of PG movies. Why, you might or might not ask? Because by my estimate about 99.9999999% of R-rated movies, 99% of PG-13 rated and 95% of PG movies contain inappropriate content. I guess, I should define what I consider “inappropriate content.” Anything that does not conform to the Gospel standards is inappropriate. Pretty simple, huh? Probably the single biggest offender is how the characters are immodestly dressed. Let me also define what is immodest. I'm not talking about the definition used by the world or even by many church members who are influenced by the ways of the world. I'm talking about the definition as demonstrated by the Church leaders. Clothing that is tight, as in anything that, because of the type of fabric, cut, and style, is designed to show off the figure, curves, shape, whatever of a man or woman (which is the vast majority of all clothing); clothing that is above the knee when a person sits down or shows too much chest (male or female), even if it does not show cleavage. Other inappropriate things are swearing, gratuitous violence, sexual innuendo, vulgarity, etc. I figure that if something is inappropriate for a child of any age, it is inappropriate for an adult. Especially since we are to become like a child.

I've wondered about the same thing, but my conclusion is that it is more symbolic in nature. It goes back to more than just shaking hands. If you recall, just prior to Adam being tossed out of the garden, we are taught that Satan intends to possess the bodies of the descendants of Adam and Eve. In fact, possession of the bodies of the human race by evil spirits in one of Satan's three main purposes. While the temple ceremony teaches us that Satan wants to possess human bodies, it also teaches us how to cast him out and away from us. Another reason for why Peter was shaking hands was to demonstrate that he was a true messenger, not a false spirit sent from Satan. Joseph Smith was so concerned about false spirits that he wrote a very long editorial in the Times and Seasons called, "Try the Spirits." It can be found in the History of the Church, Vol. 4, Pgs. 571-581.

Some advice I read and some that was given regarding our spouses bad habits was this: will that habit or "problem" keep him out of the Celestial Kingdom or is it something that just irritates you? Only you know the entire situation, so, for me personally, I use that advice to determine if I should say something or not.

There are no medical tests that can diagnose most mental illnesses. If there is actual brain damage that can be seen on an MRI or CT scan, that's different. There also are observations that seem to be pretty universal, however, there is no way to test the actual brain chemicals themselves. Doctors are shoveling psychiatric drugs down people's throats without really knowing what the true problem is other than by observation. The idea that there is a problem with the serotonin levels is simply a theory, nothing more. To say that a person is born homosexual is totally wrong. Our spirit determines our personality and our gender. Elder Packer said, “Your gender was determined in the premortal existence. You were born a male [or female]. You must treasure and protect the masculine [or feminine] part of your nature.” (Ensign, May 2009, Pg. 50) And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. (Ether 12:27) Homosexuality is nothing more than a spiritual weakness that we must overcome. It has nothing to do with our body.

I have not read all the responses, but I'm quite sure that many have stated that caffeine drinks other than tea and coffee are not prohibited by the WoW, so you won't lose your temple recommend. Personally, I have no doubt that consumption of caffeinated beverages violates the spirit of the WoW. I recommend you read this article from the Dec 2008 Ensign. https://www.lds.org/ensign/2008/12/the-energy-drink-epidemic?lang=eng

I've been trying to help my son through an addiction. One of the things I've tried to get him to understand is how to demonstrate sincerity so that the Lord can bless him for his efforts. I've tried to explain that half hearted efforts, only telling part of the truth, lack of accountability, etc. do not demonstrate sincerity. What are other examples on how to demonstrate sincerity?

The last thing the LDS consider when it comes to their trials and problems in life is the relationship of evil spirits and their effect on those trials in spite of the teachings of the church that the Devil is the source of all evil in this world. To the above average LDS, all Satan does is tempt and influence. I'm willing to bet that he loves this interpretation. The single most clever thing Satan has done is to convince people he doesn't exist. For many LDS, he has convinced them that he's mostly a symbol of evil who only tempts and influences. The idea is that what we are really dealing with is nothing more than the evil passions of men. Satan doesn't really have anything to do with that; people can just be bad. And, when it comes to homosexuality, we are just born that way. Again, I'm willing to bet that Satan snickers when he hears that. I, personally, know different. I am a male survivor of rape; it started when I was a little boy and continued for about 4 or 5 years. Consequently, I developed serious homosexual feelings that stayed with me most of my life. I'm not going to go into all that happened since it would fill up a book. I was healed from this and a couple other serious problems by my bishop. My wife had been telling me for nearly a year that I was possessed by evil spirits. Although I didn't tell her of my predilection for homosexuality, she knew and kept trying to get me to get help. Finally, after a year I listened to her and went to my bishop. He gave me a blessing after I told him of my wife's suspicions. He then proceeded to cast out several evil spirits from me. When he said the words, “Jesus Christ,” I felt what I can only describe as an angry boiling sensation churn up inside me and then was expelled from my body. I felt them leave. I have never been the same since. Any interest I had in homosexuality left with the evil spirits. I have spent many hours researching the subject of evil spirits since then and here is what I have learned and deduced. When possessed, you give up part of your free agency. And, because the victim doesn't know he is possessed, he takes on the characteristics and attributes of the spirits possessing him. He has weird and strange thoughts, feels weird and abnormal things and thinks they are his own thoughts and feelings because it comes from within him. The victim doesn't realize that it is the thoughts and feelings of the evil spirit. Here are some teachings from Parley P. Pratt. Everything we know about evils spirits was originally taught by Joseph Smith. In fact, Elder Pratt got the title for his book from the Lectures on Faith when Joseph Smith said that “faith is truly the first principle in the science of theology....” (Lectures on Faith, Lecture Seventh, Pg. 62) In 1853, the Deseret News had editorials on how not to become possessed. In his book, “Gospel Truth, Vol. 1” Elder George Q. Cannon taught that the spirit of anger, lust, adultery, theft, etc., were all evil spirits who were assigned those specific tasks by Satan. When it comes to homosexuality, here is what I have concluded based on what I have researched and my own experience. This is my own conclusion and not taught by the Church or anyone else. Open homosexuality is first a weakness or curiosity in homosexuality or cross dressing, etc. This weakness is exploited when that person then becomes possessed by an evil spirit of the opposite sex. The victim thinks all these thoughts and feelings are his own, but are actually the thoughts and feelings of the evil spirit possessing him. I strongly recommend that you do your own research and reach your own conclusions. Here are some sites for you to look at. http://gospelink.com/ This is my top site for research. It costs $5 a month but it's worth every penny. You can look up just about anything gospel related. If you put in “evil spirits” in the search box, it brings back 1196 pages of references. http://www.lds-general-conference.org/x.asp This site is from BYU and you can search every general conference ever published from 1880. It has a tutorial and I recommend you watch it before using it. http://jod.mrm.org/1 This site is a searchable Journal of Discourses. It is on an anti-Mormon web site, but it's the best site I've found for searching the JOD. https://archive.org/index.php From this site you can download public domain copies of every single conference report ever printed, all the older church magazines, newspapers and books pre-1970, many old books published by early church leaders, the Journal of Discourses (26 vol), History of the Church vols 1-7 and much, much more. In the search box, preface your searches with, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” When you do your own research, keep an open mind. I have found with many LDS that they have ideas they think are "doctrine," but are actually based on tradition and/or secular education and not the truth. It's the philosophy of men mingled with Mormonism. If you reach the same conclusions that I've reached and you decide to try and discuss with others what you've learned, you will be mocked, ridiculed and scoffed at. Be warned.

For the definition of the basics, I'm using the definition used by the Church: scripture study and prayer. I'm beginning to wonder with all the knee jerk traditional answers I keep reading.

I've done a great deal of searching on the church web site and so far, I have been unable to find a single instance in which any church leader from the prophet on down who has stated or even hinted that the "basics" are enough to gain the Celestial Kingdom. What I have found in several articles and talks is that the basics prepare you for learning what you do need to know to gain the Celestial Kingdom. Saying that the basics are enough is like saying a kid just graduating from elementary school knows enough to graduate from college. Saying that the basics are enough is nothing more than saying you need no more knowledge. "A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible." It's like saying, “I believe that Jesus is my personal Savior,” and then believing your are born again, and you have to do nothing else. Therefore, you are saved. That is not enough to gain the Celestial Kingdom. What the basic do is it puts you in a receptive spiritual frame of mind to learn what you do need to know to gain the Celestial Kingdom. You must gain knowledge to gain your salvation. The following are quotes from Joseph Smith. Does anyone here do any research into their beliefs to find out whether or not they are tradition or truth?

I strongly recommend you read this paper by Ron Poulton. http://tamarasbook.blogspot.com/2008/12/fascinating-paper-on-evil-spirits.html

It will be inappropriate until someone walks into a chapel and starts killing Mormons because he was set up to do it. Once that happens, you can be guaranteed that the Church will change its policy. At that time, any former military or law enforcement will be asked to provide security. I would not be surprised to see this happen within the next year.

NO! I don't need to pray for trials. It seems I do a good enough job on my own without asking God for more.

So, are you saying that because this quote is from the Journal of Discourses it is not valid? If that is the case, why then do many church leaders quote from it? Maybe you'll be happier if I also tell you the quote can also be found in, "The Discourses of Brigham Young," Pg. 395.

That's fine that you disagree, even if it is wrong. Let me once again give you two quotes. Whether or not you believe or agree with the prophet and the apostle who made these statements is not my problem. "It is your duty to study to know everything upon the face of the earth, in addition to reading those books. We should not only study good, and its effects upon our race, but also evil, and its consequences." Brigham Young JD 2:93-94 This counsel, to "study...evil and its consequences" was repeated by Elder James E. Faust; not once but twice and it was also included in the Aaronic Priesthood manual. This counsel was given in his talk, "The Great Imitator," Ensign Oct 1987, and was so important that it was the First Presidency Message, Ensign Jan 2007. In this talk he went against the traditional Mormon "doctrine" and explained what evil we are to avoid getting involved in. I suggest you read both Brigham Young's sermon and the Ensign articles.

Let me take your questions in order. "But does he know the future?" Well, I figured this to be self-evident, but I guess you don't know the answer to your own question. The answer is, "No." "Why?" This question goes back to one of several problems with the LDS: the "all is well in Zion" syndrome. I've heard in church more times than I can count that we don't need to know the signs of the times. That is not only wrong, but stupid. I read a conference report that related a study about food storage from the University of Utah. Only 5% of LDS had one year worth of grain and less than 3% had meat, vegetables, etc. Those who don't have food storage fall into one of two categories: 1. sincerely cannot afford it, which would be very few LDS. 2. All is well in Zion crowd. That's the crowd that will get cleansed and I don't want to be part of that group. Studying the signs of the times will let me know what is coming as each sign presents itself. "Including the devil?" As I stated, the Devil tells the truth when it suits his purposes, always to deceive. However, Brigham Young told us to "study...evil and its consequences." As for taking the Devil's word for anything, nope, I don't go there.

I understand why Davis is making a stand for what she believes is right, and I sympathize with her. However, Elder Oaks is right and we need to obey the law of the land, even if it actually is based on a deliberately false premise.

Don't get me wrong. I agree with much of the sentiment expressed about Koyle. However, even the Devil will tell the truth. And yes, he always does that to get in a lie. What I'm attempting to do is correlate true prophecies from church leaders with some of the things he has stated. If something does not agree with what has already been revealed, I ignore it as not truthful. And, of course, the only way to keep from being deceived is to follow the true prophet, not a false prophet. I consider many sources in my quest for knowledge. Simply because a person was eventually excommunicated does not mean that everything he stated is false. If that were the case, we need to disregard everything any former, excommunicated GA has ever stated as false, starting with Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer and their testimonies of the Book of Mormon. I'm also under the impression from the responses that some of you think we should never listen to the inspired words of the ordinary, nobody person in church. I also take it from these responses that some of you think only an apostle or the prophet can receive revelation. And before anyone starts in, I know all about it being "personal" revelation when it comes from a nobody church member. What I have a problem with is that too many LDS think that if something is "personal revelation," it is only true for that specific person. When it comes to personal problems, personal circumstances, I agree with that, but when it comes to an eternal gospel truth, the "personal revelation" from a nobody member is true for everyone. I realize it is not a nobody member's privilege or right to publish it as a revelation intended for the entire church; that comes only from the prophet, but that does not invalidate the truthfulness of that person's revelation. When the Spirit confirms another person's "personal revelation" to me, then I accept it as truth. just as I would when the Spirit confirms to me the truthfulness of what the Prophet teaches. I do not take another person's word for something unless I have implicit trust in them (not always then either), especially things I hear during church (not general conference; I accept that). I investigate it to see if what I heard agrees with what is already revealed. All too often I find some things said were tradition and not truth. This is the case with many of the Koyle "prophecies." I'm interested in finding out the truth. We are expected to find out things for ourselves, to seek out knowledge and understanding, and to gain intelligence. If we sit back and wait for the prophet to tell us what to do, we are in serious trouble.