the Ogre

Denying science is a dangerous as accepting agnosticism and as much a cop-out.

Personally, I see most of this discussion as trying to find out how many angels waltz on pinheads and if it really is the waltz and not really the fox-trot, the polka, or crumping. Smoking pot and shooting up are against the WoW, but neither are mentioned in the scripture. Pull out your personal Liahona and move-on.

Oh well . . . See its like this, inquiry means being able to investigate, without bias, every possible point of view. Agnostics typically are either afraid to, don't care to, or just like to stick it to the man. Personally, I see agnosticism as a cop-out: "I'm open to faith, but don't expect me to waste my time finding out for sure." Abandoning the search is one of the best examples of closing down one's mind and beginning the starvation of the soul. I see your declarations as nothing more then trying to stab all those who oppressed you in the past in the eye. Stab away then, but at the same time remember always it is not G-d who was your personal oppressor. The church is not G-d. It is a bunch of people who for the most part act like a bunch of idiots and would close all their meetings to those that did not fit in with them if the L-rd did not command them to keep the doors open. The next thing about agnostics is that they look upon all the people who are educated and quite reasonable as delusional and can not see how being religious and conducting life through faith can somehow be possible without surrendering that part of the mind that requires mental agility. Reason is not the opposite of faith, I told you what is: apathy. Instead of saying you don't believe because you are so smart say that you just don't care and that you don't want to waste your time and more people will believe you otherwise you will forever lack credibility by saying "God just made me this way." How ever, convincing the uber-intelligent of a possible truth they did not discover by themselves through their pride is like convincing a profitable pornographer that what they are doing is wrong. Good luck and have fun with agnosticism and like I said: Oh well . . .

I am glad that you posted on this site. I love faux-reason and pseudo-intelligence. Please, grow-up a little. The L-rd will still be there.I know you will not like how I have responded to your post, but there is a point when silliness just simply can no longer be ignored. Aaron the Ogre

I don't.If the US were as righteous a nation as it once was, then I think you might be correct, but our society and nation is beginning to slide into the pit. I think a young man should choose to save souls over serving his nation. Don't get me wrong. I'm a vet and I am very proud of my service, but my four years in the Army do not equal the two years I should have served as a missionary. I would have done more good as a missionary and the Army would still have been there if I had gone on a mission first. Serving in the military does not equal serving G-d ever.

That Buttars guy is really annoying. Unfortunately, I know people who do not think he did anything wrong.I think the legislature (Utah's) needs to do something to push him out. His brand of bigotry and ignorance smears everyone from Utah.

There has been a bit of holobaloo locally about some folks that left the church to avoid church disciple for disagreeing with church [CES policy to be more accurate] policy. Personally, I think it is essentially a tempest in a teapot, but these things normally are. I read the following in the Trib: I really like Kirby. I totally agree with the assertion: "What I do know is that I certainly don't plan on bailing out of all that I love about my church simply because some things (and plenty of people) in it drive me nuts. I find a way to cope with what I don't like in order to get what I want."The church is true as is the gospel. I hate it when pride gets in the way. Aaron the Ogre

I have the amazing ability to see the present. Right now [on the internet, I am always in clairvoyant mode], I see this big white rectangle.

There was an important part of this thread that went missing: what happens to a woman who is married in the temple and then goes though a civil divorce? Can the woman remarry? The answer is yes, but it takes a bit of work. The bishopric is the place to start and from there being sincere about the second marriage.

CK: everyone in chemo gets that answer. Who wants to go through that stuff, but if your doctor says to get on with it, do what he says.

Seeker: Sorry about the divorce. Mine happened at the 15 year mark as well. I am active in my ward and always have been. I don't want to blow bubbles in your direction neither do I want to be overly negative, but in saying the divorced people in the church generally have a decent reception at church is true, there are times that being a divorcee can be [heck]. To be honest, I am not the best example: I don't put up with people being stupid, but the church can not tell you to never come back just because one is a jerk or even divorced. I love the church and the gospel and my L-rd and S-vior, its the other members that I have trouble with, but then I live in Utah Valley where some truly world-class narrow minded people reside. The church thinks divorce is wrong, but like Chr-st, it recognizes the world is a wicked stinking place where people just stop being good or just plain decent (my ex decided she liked this other dude [and then later on a bunch of other dudes and booze and . . . ] more then me) and so it happens and so it goes. Remember G-d loves you (even if you never become LDS) and wants you to be happy and whole and as such you (like me) have to give up the anger that came from the divorce and redirect that energy into loving your children and being a good parent. Good luck. Aaron the Ogre

T: C'mon, you meant to say the church was restored here because the cheese-burgers in Europe are terrible and who likes bangers and mash anyway? AtO

CK: Dude, that rocks my socks!!! I am totally impressed. Now you'll really find out why the church is true and stop guessing. Aaron the Ogre

Well years of careful research went into this declaration obviously. I wonder though, if Joseph was a treasure hunter are all Latter-day Saints doing the same? If so, why ain't we covering more of this in EQ?

I don't like either punishment (hot sauce or soap). It trivializes what they are doing wrong. Removing privileges works well, if they know why you are doing it and if you are being consistent.

El: I agree, this is an incredible announcement, but I disagree with the quote you included. Historians are such a conceited bunch. The truthfulness of "Mormonism" has little to nothing to do with early church history. Truthfulness is personal, or rather understanding of truth is different from person to person making it obviously relative (and why everyone's testimony is different). What is true to one person is not so for another. The truthiness of any religion can only be found through faith and not the facade of religio-historicity. You know a lot about the history of the LDS church and the Mormon people, but you do not find religious value in anything you have studied (otherwise you would drop the atheist stuff).

PC:I can hear the critics, but I am glad that the church has not switched to another translation. I like the KJV, but also use the NIV for research purposes. Both are quite nice and informative, especially for the purposes of comparison and contrast. Regarding the missional idea, I think it blows. The older language is working fine and if you think the critics would be bad regarding the KJV or NIVish retranslation, the redux of the BoM would just drag them out from every little rock.

T:I am so sorry. That is absolutely horrible. I hope everything works out for the best. Sincerely, Aaron the Ogre

That banned bad-boy Jason has a good point: conversion is a continuing process, but I do not think one has to convert from one faith to another for that process to work. My conversion is on-going and quite critical. I do not take anything for granted.

How about scholars that are not a part of some type of vanity-press?

Okay-my thoughts (ignore if you like): 1. Evolution and the Adam & Eve doctrine/mythology (Adam and Eve as actual people v. the concept of men with one fewer ribs--doctrine or myth) are red-herrings and I have said so here before. 1a. Red-herrings are interesting and fun distractions, but only that and as such given as little attention as possible. 2. G-d will one day let us know what happened (goodness, H- gave us the BoM and toothpaste), but right now I doubt we could handle it. Evolutionary theory, I believe, is closer to actuality than current creationist-science, but who cares? Evolutionary theory is itself an evolving creature little past the single-cell stage (and only a speck of the total cosmological picture). When are we going to get to the vertebrates!?! 3. Religious-agnosticism is for wimps. 4. Atheism is a cop-out, but at least a smidge better than agnosticism (rather then a religious-agnostic, I am a philosophical-agnostic thinking philosophy is possible, but will only believe it when I see it--though, now, there is a lot of smell in philosophy, I still need something more practically applicable but I have faith that one day philosophy will more then stink). Aaron the Ogre

Me too! and I'm even a BYU fan. The cheek of these people. I however get along alright with my elders quorum (the RS pretends I do not exist). I cherish the blessing on my head, to my family, to my friends, and to my soul from the members of the PH in my community, work, and life (even the ding-dongs at work and church who think I'm just a little to radical to be LDS). Aaron the Ogre

Yep, only men.

PC, good point about the goals of EV efforts among inactive mormons, but I think they will always fail until they can stop coming across as being extremely hateful. Aaron the Ogre

Four of my coworkers are recent immigrants from Argentina and love drinking matte'. I love the slow pace of their conversation and speech. My dad went on his mission there. While there he also learned to speak Italian and Portugese (he now speaks seven and is trying to learn gailic). In South Korea, I used to purchase Argentine beef as often as possible because the flavor was superior to all varieties except Kobe beef which I couldn't afford anyway.