JohnsonJones

On Alma 9 - We see in the preceding chapter that Amulek could have his heart changed to help Alma. It shows how the Lord knows our hearts and can help choose us to do the work he wishes to be done. So, here, Amulek has joined Alma in teaching the word to the Ammonihah. The verses of 14 - 24 speaks dire warnings to them about their wickedness after knowing the Lord and his gospel. I wonder in our day, as we see more and more of our youth fall away from the gospel (and not just us, Christianity in general is having great difficulties with it's youth falling away from Christian belief) if the Lord will visit us with wrath and destruction much as he did the Nephites (and also in Israel to the Jews when it happened with them).

So, since they are mentioned, does that raise the number of women mentioned in the Book of Mormon to +2000?

Back on topic. I've been very busy the past little while so not able to comment. With the recent events it makes me wonder if wiping out a group of people is ever justified or not? I've seen many pro-palestinian things recently and also I have seen a lot of Restraint on Israel. We speak of the terrible things the Nazi's did leading up to and during World War 2, inclusive of the Holocaust. This event was where a bunch of people blamed the Jews for many of their troubles and then proceeded to try to kill all of them within their territories, or eventually to kill all of them and wipe them out. Instead, we wiped out the Nazi's, though we didn't kill everyone, and there were still some remnants left to bring about the Nazi and Neo-Nazi's of today with their ideology. You probably will not take my word for it (very few on these forums ever do, even when I post articles or other items), but Hamas wants to genocide the Jews. They are supported by a LOT of Palestinians (enough to keep power, and from what I've seen, those in Gaza are willingly allowing them to do so and fully support them. This means that you have a group of people that would not just wipe out Israel if given the chance, but do so by killing every Jew in Israel. They would not do it humanly either (and what the Germans did would be seen as Humane if you knew what Hamas would do if given the chance to). They would torture the Jews to death for spectacle, entertainment, and revenge. They would kill every Man, Woman, Child, and Baby of the Jews. I do not see this attitude going away. How do you deal with a people that want to wipe out another from the face of the earth like a rabid animal. Are you then justified at getting rid of them? Of course, if you did that, it probably also would be seen as a genocide? How does one respond to such hatred. People try to claim that Hamas was driven to this because of Israel. I disagree. Hamas could have acted as other nations and states have. They have some of the most beautiful beach areas of the Mediterranean if they so desired to have them. They have the perfect climate for it. They could be swelling with money if they so desired. They don't desire. They only desire one thing (which I pointed out above)...the genocide of the Jews. Israel have actually dealt with this with a GREAT DEAL of restraint in my opinion. Considering what the type of group they are up against and what that group would do if the situation was reversed...it is insane to think about how restrained Israel has been. To put it in scale...because we are much larger than Israel the attack on us would need to be a LOT more violent and larger...If another nation came in and nuked the entire state of Rhode Island...literally nuked it out of existence with multiple small nukes, and then went through Connecticut door to door killing any American they could find...We would nuke the HECK out of whatever nation did that to us most likely. We wouldn't care about Human rights or niceties, we'd simply use the nuclear option once it was used on us. Israel has not yet even responded in kind like we would have. Think about that. I am solidly pro-Israel currently in this issue...but I find more and more out there are turning against them in regards to this event.

Of interest and a little off topic, top tax rate in the US for Federal Taxes is 37%. California has a Tax rate of 13.30% for it's top tax rate. That right there is 50.30% tax! Add in sales tax at 7.25% and you are talking far over that 50% tax rate. Does this mean we are in bondage?? Note: This doesn't even include other "taxes" such as property tax or social security, etc.

PS: Latest news I've heard thus far is that the Peacebrokers are trying to broker a Peace between Israel and Hamas at this point. Gaza is on the verge of running out of supplies and even the Red Cross workers there are saying they are running out. Israel is at least giving some ear to the Peacebrokers. Hamas is absolutely refusing to talk or budge or anything. It's like talking to a blank wall. I'm not sure what is up but they WANT this to happen to Gaza, or so it seems. They aren't talking. Even as Gaza is having great difficulties Hamas is the hard nose ones (well, harder nosed than the Isreali's at least) here it sounds like.

Sorry, been a little busy as of late. Actually, I have been really busy as of late and looks like I'll be continuing to work over the weekend at this rate. Anyways, I'll try to give a few sources... From Israel itself... Trump revealed covert Israeli Mission in Syria to Russians Little less from Israel israeli intelligence furious over trumps loose lips The record from the US side is less upset than the Israeli's were (who were extremely upset for some reason) and tried to play it off without showing that Israel was actually REALLY upset about it... Isreal was source intelligence trump shared with russia So...the rumor that I've heard related to that in a big chain up to this event is far more plausible than some others I've heard in thread. Anyways...I'm for a quick read of the forums and then back to work for me.

War IS profiteering in many ways. It can also create an economical lift as long as the society engaged doesn't get destroyed or hurt beyond the lift it grants. That said...I don't think Biden is involved with this. It's far more likely the classified information that Trump gave to the Russians pertaining to Israel was then given to Iran and Iran used it to help plan this attack. We don't need the war in Israel for any economic lift in the US. Unless it REALLY explodes (I don't see it doing that) it won't have that effect as far as I see. Netanyahu had a problem recently with his Justice reforms. Supposedly many officers and leaders in the military resigned over these things. Some hypothesize that this loss of experience and manpower created gaps in their intelligence gathering as well as their preparedness that allowed this attack to be as bad as it was. However, if anything this unites Israel (from it's rather divided spot over these reforms) against a common enemy. This does FAR more for Netanyahu and his political situation than it does the US. Some also hypothesize that it was a move by Iran and Hamas to derail the Arab-Israel peace process that seemed to be forming extremely well. This actually seems more plausible than any of the other ideas I've read. It probably stands a good chance of doing that, at least for the time being. The price Hamas pays for it remains to be seen though.

So, why hasn't someone chased down the lights when they appear. When they start, someone runs towards them till the get to it's source...or, if they stop, position someone down the tracks until they appear and see if the other person sees them...and evaluate what is causing them? You would think that the Scientist studying it could get someone at the source of where it originates at some point by positioning students at different areas getting closer or further as the lights go off.

This is what I was thinking about as I read the Original post as well.

So, the other day I built a Book case and put it up. Which was more important, knowing about the Book case or actually building it? The same would apply here. Without knowing about the Book Case I could have never put it up in the first place. I could have never constructed that particular Book Case if I did not even know it existed. I could not have constructed the Book Case unless I had the belief that I was able to construct it. At the same time, if ALL I had was knowledge of the Book Case and the faith I would be able to build it, but never put in the effort to actually BUILD it...the Book case would have never been made. The Book Case would not exist without my work to build it. In this instance then, which is more important? The Book case MUST have BOTH MY KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF AS WELL AS MY WORK in order to be built and exist. I'd say the same in answer to your question. You have to have both in order to have salvation. Each element on it's own does not work. One is the first STEP to Salvation, but the other is NECESSARY to actually ACHIEVE that salvation.

I know that is what they SAY, but I would argue it is fundamentally something very different. By DEFINITION, Trinitarians admit they DO NOT understand nor comprehend what and who they worship. They can understand and comprehend, but at the same time, by their own admittance (or at least those who believe in the creed above) do NOT understand their deity. THIS is the core difference. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do NOT state this. They believe that they CAN comprehend this, and then go further by DEFINING how this is comprehensible. THAT...I would say is the core sin that some Churches have against ours...or at least in their argument. THE irony is that they CANNOT actually say we are WRONG, because, once again, as pointed out, they themselves cannot define the relationship itself. It's like telling someone that you cannot calculate 2+2...you don't know the answer. You can comprehend that 2+2 exists and is a math problem, but you cannot calculate it. Then, when someone says that it equals 4...those who cannot figure out the problem say that is absolutely not the answer. HOW WOULD THEY KNOW...if they can't do the math...then HOW CAN THEY TELL SOMEONE ELSE they are WRONG? In the same way, if one cannot comprehend or understand the Trinity, how then can they tell someone else that their belief on how it works is wrong? In essence, all other things in the creed are also things that the LDS church promotes. There is MISUNDERSTANDING on the part of many Saints in that they also do not comprehend the similarities, but going down the list, they essentially believe the same as the Trinitarians with the exception of the comprehensible portion. They believe that Humanity is of a different substance than the immortal Deity. That what made Christ special is that for a brief while he shared a PART of this substance of mortality, but he was at first Divine (Being a Spirit and composed of it without any blood, the same as the Holy Spirit is, and as the Father also is not Flesh and blood but Flesh and Spirit...thus being of the Same substance as each other but not mortal as we are) and now also divine (of the same composition or type of body as his Father, being a Celestial Body or heavenly body rather than the Corruptible Mortal Flesh that we are). Thus he is the same substance, but at the same time, they are all THREE separate individuals (also something we agree upon). The question than comes on how we understand the oneness. IT IS NOT truly defined in the Creed except to show that they are one, and yet three. In this, the Saints also agree, that they are one and yet three. The GREAT SIN that those who say it is incomprehensible is that the Saints ALSO say that the way this is achieved is not just due to being of the same immortality as each other (or same substance, as differs from the substance of the mortal man) but also of the same mind, or being one in purpose rather than a more nebulous same brain in all three bodies but also different. It's that the Saints DARE to define the incomprehensible, or at least attempt to define it. And for that, many do not accept that the Saints are Christians. -------------------------------------------- The above is what we see on paper at least, and orally and vocally. The TRUTH of the matter from my perspective though is that the disagreements ACTUALLY stem from something very different, and the history is that the REAL reasons for the divide today is due to other matters. The doctrinal reasons are just the excuses that some religions have made up to try to justify the original purpose and reasons of WHY they wished to exclude the Latter-day Saints from being Christians (as if the Trinitarians can be the ones to judge rather than the Lord being the one who actually is the judge). (though in truth, and ironically, it first goes to the fact that they were polygamists and that offended them early on and so those churches sought ANY excuse to exclude the Latter-day Saints from Christianity, and later it was due to Missionaries converting members of their congregations. That the Church started converting Christians from one church or congregation into theirs was seen as scandalous and a crusade started among some of the Protestant Churches to stop this. In around the 60s and 70s you start seeing a massive movement to discredit the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and much of what I've read and heard point out that it was MORE due to the missionary efforts of the Church itself rather than actual theological disagreements at first. This is when they started truly trying to find theological differences [even turning to those who were anti-LDS at times and spouting truths mixed with lies about the church to their members and anyone who would listen in an attempt to stop those conversions. It is in some ways...extremely ironic. I see it as the fore-cursor the current problem that all Christianity in the U.S. are experiencing today, because many of the same things they used to try to dissuade people from converting to the Church could ALSO be used against them. Many of these are now the arguments which young people are also using against the Christian Majority of Trinitarians on WHY they cannot be part of those Churches. In essence, those Churches laid the seeds of their own problems for young people falling away from them decades ago).

Driven in Utah, Florida, Atlanta, California, Texas, Virginia, and Montana and can say SLC drivers ignore more of the speed limits than any of those. Traffic in SLC isn't the worst, but drivers ignoring the rules are! (also driven many other locations, SLC drivers are the worst for following speed limits than any other locations I've visited). Haven't ever driven in Boston that I can recall though, and Illinois was just through North Illinois (along I-80) so I can't comment on how they compare, but yeah, the drivers from around mid SLC on South for around 40-50 miles simply seem to drive above the speed limit with very few exceptions. Of course, Humorously speaking...the traffic is so bad in L.A. that you couldn't drive faster than the speed limit if you WANTED to. It's just one big parking lot constantly.

Well, the structure looks like it's relatively okay...but...seeing that it's in this thread chances are that there's something weird with it going on. Better to just condemn it on principle and blow it up and clean up the rubble then rebuild.

So, having vistied Utah awhile ago (and I may have mentioned this before somewhere) while those North of Salt Lake seemed to follow speed limits, it seemed almost NO one followed speed limits South of Salt Lake. I would say they already declared the speed limits null and void in the area from Salt Lake City to Spanish Fork in Utah. I've never seen a place where they so flagrantly ignored the speed limit. I was driving the speed limit and was the slowest person on the Road! I've never see any place as bad as that for ignoring speed limits (and I've been to a lot of places...some have problems, but not as flagrantly as SLC)! To me it appears as if the speed laws are already null and void in SLC! I will say humorously though that in the Middle East, especially on the Arabian Peninsula many of the family (you have those who are actually citizens, they are normally part of a tribe and many of them are extremely rich and own very expensive cars) will drive no where close to the speed limit, driving as fast as they can. At the same time the majority of the populace (who are normally foreigners...being either TPNs [which many would say are the equivalent of slaves there] or those visiting on business drive under the speed limit (the fines are extremely harsh). Citizenship wise, they probably equal South SLC for speedsters, but populace wise, no where close.

I think some of the Democrats recently criticized the Republicans about being more concerned about Party then governing. IT would appear correct to some measure. It also has four fingers pointing back to Democrats with this. They are hypocrites as well. If they were actually concerned about governing rather than trying to make political points they would not have voted out the Speaker. We have less than 45 days now to have them to stop a government shutdown. They couldn't do it with 9 months with a SPEAKER...and now they have even less time. At least the Speaker worked with them (even at the last minute). Now...no one can actually govern with the House until a new Speaker is chosen. With the Disarray of the Republicans, we don't know when that will be. With each day the time get's closer to a shutdown. If the Democrats were so concerned with governing instead of putting their party first (just like they accused the Republicans) they would have been more concerned with that. They seem to have this fantasy about having a Democrat elected speaker and that this is the way to do it. Even if that fantasy were to happen, it would probably ONLY happen if there was a time crunch before the government shut down. In that instance, the time left to work out a way to prevent a government shutdown would probably be extremely short. The chances of a government shutdown increase dramatically more each day. To me, it appears they are no more concerned with Governing than the Republicans in this instance. It's ALL ABOUT THE PARTY rather than what is good for the United States and it's citizens. They want to blame the Republicans...well...the US public has news for them. The problem isn't Republicans or Democrats...but almost EVERYONE in House because EVERYONE seems to be putting their OWN interests ahead of the nation and it's people for which they are supposed to be actually concerned about.

It's the Utes and Paiutes! Navajo also? It matches even! Salt Lake City area would be where the thin neck of land would be! Between the Mountains and the Sea at least...though not two seas. You could walk it in a day (even a normal person as long as they aren't in bad health). The gospel has definitely been spread among those tribes...probably multiple times. The impact of the Church on their lives probably has impacted them far more than any other Native Americans. I think they have cities in the rocks and high places that were used as defensive fortifications thousands of years ago. We have the Manti Temple there that was supposedly dedicated previously to be a Temple. Could it be that the Nephites lived North of the Salt Lake area up to where the Provo Area is today with the Lamanites south of that and the Land of Nephi across the Salt Lake? Is that the type of idea you are looking at??????

So, Matt Gaetz allied with the Democrats to vote McCarthy out. Great...just Great. Only 8 Republicans voted to oust the Speaker. Gaetz had more support from the Democrats than the Republicans. What a Hypocrit. And he decided to get the Speaker out because the Speaker made a deal with the Democrats? Someone remind me why they haven't kicked him out of congress yet...isn't the investigation ready to be prosecuted yet (didn't it start before Trump's...why is Trump in court before Gaetz??) PS: Just want to add, the Democrats took the bait. Because of this I expect chaos to reign in the house even more than it was. Good Luck on stopping a Government shutdown...at this rate they'll be fighting all the way past the shutdown date! If we get a shutdown, because the Democrats fully supported this mess, I expect they cannot get out of the blame now if it gets to that point. Before this, they could largely be seen as blameless. With this, it can be seen that they are only trying to continue the discord in Republicans and promote an internal strife amongst the Republican party to the loss of all. Hopefully some good comes out of it, but right now I just see a LOT of division in Congress to the point that it's not functioning.

Comic books used to be so easy to find when I was younger. The would be in stores and even gas stations. They were everywhere. The last time I think I saw comic books in the stores was at a Walmart some years ago. These days I don't see the comicbooks around like they used to be.

I do not know the source of it off the top of my head, but there is the statement that it is eternity is like a ring, one eternal round. There have also been thoughts that time does not exist in eternity. One way of viewing it is that things repeat in a cycle over and over again. Another, is that there is only ONE circle and you can go anywhere within it. If that is the case, you get the paradox where it could be that the creator created themselves. The honest things is we do not know (and at this stage, probably do not need to know) the answers to these questions. Just as you say, we do not know. We don't know anything about what came before the pre-mortal existence, and in general, before the War in Heaven.

I do not know all things. I do not know how the plan was created or how it was created, only that it is our Father's Plan of Salvation for us. Now, if it was how you describe (whether I agree or not) I have a parallel where it would STILL be his plan. Say I was a new Professor (and I was...years ago...so no longer a new Professor) and had no idea what order to teach the first class I was going into. I needed some pattern or some way to go about it. I COULD create my own, or I could turn to other Professors in the department and ask their ideas. If an elderly Professor who was about to retire gave me their entire course curriculum with the lesson plans and other materials and I used that as my plan...adjusting it as per what I needed for the class...whose plan is the class following at that point? I am the one using the plan and having it as the outline and direction for the class. It's not the older professor who is using it. As far as the students know, this is the only plan they know the class is using. As far as they can see, this is my plan that the class is following. I would posit they are correct. Now that I am using this as my plan on how my class will go, it IS my plan. My class, my decisions, my teaching, my plan. Just a thought on your thoughts on this.

Once adopted, you fall under the adopted heading, which is basically a kid with married parents.

I'd add a few more, though they would definately not be as popular as the ones you list. 7. Get rid of no-fault divorce. This would be unpopular. It would probably need to go hand in hand with protective services ramping up for woman (one reason many see getting rid of this as unpopular is because woman tend to use the no fault divorce more often and many times it is to get away from an abuser or similar things to that effect...even if it is..."no-fault"). 8. Return the stigmatization of being born out of wedlock. This is unfair. It is unfair to the kids this happens to. However, by trying to even out the field so all kids are equal, it has removed how bad it is seen to have children out of wedlock. It is even seen as preferable by some these days! 9. Reinforce Morality. I believe Homosexual Marriage is a thing because we, as a society, were already immoral. When 95% of the population has pre-marital relations...that is NOT a moral society. That's not even a Christian society. They are in no way following the commandments or instructions of the Lord. It doesn't matter if they say they have been saved, their actions say they don't even care about the Lord and his path. Adultery and Fornication are just as bad as Homosexual acts. This is the breach American society does not want to actually admit. We were already extremely immoral as a people already, even before these things happened. I recently read a type of interview paper where an individual went and talked to married couples. Anonymity was something that was given so the people could say what they wished. There was an overwhelming theme there that they didn't like that their spouse had premarital relationships with others. A few said that they didn't care, but overwhelmingly, most said it bothered them. They dealt with it in various ways. Some just tried to ignore that these things ever happened. Others tried to pretend that they were each other's first relationship of that sort and only think back to when they were married. It seemed many tried to forget, ignore, or otherwise try to pretend that such things did not happen before they were married. It was extremely sad. This was from a rather liberal crowd (and non-LDS), and they still appeared to have these feelings. Young people seem to think that there will be no repercussions from immorality these days, but from what I read on this, there are serious ramifications of their actions, but no one really wants to talk about it. No one wants to face up to it or deal with it. They realize society (as opposed to the individual) does not favor such talk these days. I think one of the first things to bring a two parent "privilege" back for more people is to bring back morality and chastity to the home, to our young people, and to American society. In the same way that could help reinforce Christianity and the Christian way of life back to America as well.

No, they are not mistaken. You would be foreordained, or given the opportunity to have certain blessings in this life predicated upon your righteousness. A poor example (though it can be somewhat related in the same way) of something that could be like it in this life...a kid goes to college to earn their degree. They desire at the time to get a Law Degree eventually. The college will not deny them such a degree as long as they work and study hard to attain it. You could even say that as they are accepted into their major they are already predicted that they will be able to obtain this degree as long as they continue to work towards it. The college is going to plan that they will succeed and offer to help along the way. They will provide counselors, study halls, study areas, TA's, and many other tools. If all goes right, the kid WILL get their degree, and then, if all goes right, they will get their Law Degree if they stick with it. We have a class of 200 students in this particular college. All of them feel that this is what they want to do on the day they start college classes. Expectations are that they will be the next graduates of Pre-Law. However, as time goes on some of them find out they have no desire to study or work. They flunk all their classes. They COULD have gotten the degree, but due to their own choices have lost the opportunity (at least temporarily) unless they go through their suspension (or probation if it wasn't quite that bad) and the penalties assigned and then re-enter (delayed from the rest of the class due to having to get the requisite scores and other items to overcome the probation or suspension). Most choose not to and they never get their degree. There are others who find out that they aren't really interested in the major. They want to study other avenues. Perhaps they want to study Art, or Music, or Physics, or some other area. They change majors and graduate with a degree in that area instead. You have those that work hard and graduate. Just as they were offered the opportunity, they graduate with a Bachelors. Now they need to take the LSAT and apply for Law School. There is probably space for all of them if they only wish to try, but some of them get discouraged because they don't have the grades or test score to get into the Law School they wanted to go to. Others push onwards and get into Law School. Some of them get into the one they wanted, others get into schools that may not be as renowned, but it's a spot. In Law School some find that this really isn't what they imagined it would be and drop out. Others continue and eventually graduate with their Law Degree. All of them were seen as being able to get the degree when they first entered the college. They were planned on being able to get them and were forecast as the incoming class of Lawyers (or future Lawyers). They were all give the opportunities. Along the way many of them decided to follow different paths. It's not the best parallel, but I think it kind of shows the idea. We are promised every blessing if WE choose to do certain things. Most of the time in patriarchal blessings, the promises are based upon us also doing certain things (normally worded in a way that says these blessings are predicated upon your faithfulness or something to that effect). We are not forced to do these things or follow the gospel if we do not wish to in this life. We have the opportunities as promised in the Church and in our blessings, but we are not going to be forced to take them. ------------------------------------- As an aside on the topic as well, I think those born into the church CHOSE this due to their desires in the pre-mortal existence. There are also those that may have wanted this as well but did not get to be born into the Church. Some of these may be our ancestors. Someone had to be there to ensure the next generation. They would have their desires known by the Lord. There are others that were probably promised that even if they were not born in the Church, the Church would come to them and if they had the true desire in their heart, they would be able to join into the Church in this life and have all the blessings those born into the church also have. When I was younger (so decades ago), there was a push for Latter-day Saint Families to have as many children as possible. One reason was so that those who WANTED to be born in the Church, or as many as wanted to be born in the church, could have that opportunity. Even with as many members as we had, there probably was no where close to enough children born to equal out to how many wanted to be Born in the church or wished the blessings of the gospel. One reason Missionary work is probably so important, to help those who have the desires in their heart to be able to find the gospel and join with the Saints and have all the blessings the Lord offers while still in this life.

And with those hands they drew him as a dog? Pluto's a dog....right? A brown, lovable pup that graces our cartoon heritage?

I don't know if everyone ever wanted all those things. I think MUCH of our choices that come in this life are a result of our choices in the pre-mortal life or pre-mortal existence. By knowing what WE would have chosen if we had full range, the Lord knows what our true desires were. This life is a time for ourselves to prove to ourselves what we want and will do. The Lord already knows us better than we know ourselves. Much of the position we find ourselves in during this life is because WE chose to put ourselves there previously. We wanted to learn lessons about ourselves, or to have opportunities, or other reasons while we experience this mortal realm. I think there were those that were unsure and didn't care which kingdom they went to as long as they were able to live in heaven. They didn't favor losing agency, but they really didn't want to have to fight for the responsibilities that would come with a greater reward. There were others who wanted to have the glories of heaven, but perhaps didn't want the responsibilities that their Father and Mother had later in eternity. There were those who sought to be just like their Father or Mother. I think there was a great range of what was desired and what we wanted to be when we grew up. Some felt in a way strongly opposed to what was taught or seen and rebelled. Between those that rebelled and those that sought to be exactly like their Parents is a wide range of desire and emotion. I feel that those born into the church today were those who desired to be born as members of the Church. They are born into the Church because that was what they desired in the pre-existence, along with all the blessings that come with it. Whether or not their heart truly desired that, however, is something that each and everyone one of them will find out in this life for themselves.