cdowis

CRITIC racism While we disagree on the past statements of church leaders, the church is in opposition to racism and intolerance, and active in assisting in black culture and communities. Apostle Opens Black Church Leadership Summit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTaE2FefAw&t=61s Self Reliance Embraced by Latter-day Saints in Accra, Ghana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6u3OnPyjSg Church Preserves Precious Records of African Nation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJyB9Nnrr0

Regarding the Book of Mormon scripture on skin of darkness, you "FORGOT" to also quote [8] O my brethren, I fear that unless ye [the Nephites] shall repent of your sins that *their skins [Lamanites] will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God* [23] For behold, thus saith the Lord: I will not show unto the wicked of my strength, to one more than the other, save it be unto those that repent of their sins, and hearken unto my words. Now therefore, I would that **ye should behold, my brethren, that it shall be better for the Lamanites than for you except ye shall repent** Also [Christ] inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and *he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female* and he remembereth the heathen; and *all are alike unto God* both Jew and Gentile. You are sooooooooo forgetful............

CRITIC Racism RESPONSE This is what we actually believe : "For a time in the Church there was a restriction on the priesthood for male members of African descent. It is not known precisely why, how, or when this restriction began in the Church but what is clear is that it ended decades ago. *Some have attempted to explain the reason for this restriction but these attempts should be viewed as speculation and opinion, not doctrine* The Church is not bound by speculation or opinions given with limited understanding. *We condemn racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church* http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/racial-remarks-in-washington-post-article Growth in Africa http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865638671/Major-LDS-growth-in-Africa-unaffected-by-priesthood-restriction-Elder-Sitati-says.html Also https://youtu.be/xYG53StGhmE http://www.ldsliving.com/Church-Announces-Temple-Groundbreakings-in-Africa-and-South-America/s/80772?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=email A contribution to Black History and Ancestry http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/historic-freedmen-records-released Elder Dube, a General Authority in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, speaking in the world-wide General Conference https://youtu.be/Ndt159Pa3J4 Humanitarian efforts in Africa https://youtu.be/h3J2vLNGdWY

CRITIC The Book of Mormon is an artifact of the 19th century == parallels his own century RESPONSE I see your point. It is called parallelism, an argument against the authenticity of the BOM. But. my friend, you have reached the wrong conclusion. Parallelism proves that this is a 20th century production. We have a band of robbers which has a standing army, and they hide in caves in the mountains. This is OBVIOUSLY a reference to the Taliban. We have blood oaths, straight out of the mobsters of the casa nostra, among other things bribing judges for a favorable judgement == sounds like the corruption found in Chicago or New York. Burning heretics comes from the play and TV production of "Joan of Arc" We can detect the popularity of TV preachers, references to Darwinism == survival of the fittest. The continual tension and hostility between the Lamanites and Nephites, the two great powers == certainly a reference to the Cold War. The refusal of the kingmen to participate in defending and fighting the bad guys == the Quakers and other conscience objectors during WW2. Where else will you find such a confluence of such events? Parallelism tells us that the Book of Mormon was a pious fraud written in the 20th century. How can you deny the obvious ==>> It all fits!!

A conversation Was the first vision a vision of an angel, angels, Jesus, or God the Father and Jesus? He was visited by God the Father and Jesus Christ. "Angel" is a generic term for a heavenly being, and there is an indications that he also saw angels in the vision. But that is not clear, since it was mentioned in only one account. Would you forget that you saw God and Jesus? He did not "forget". Each account is specific to the time and circumstances of the narrative -- such as the audience, and the purpose for relating his story. These were not designed to be published to a general audience until he gathered all the details for general publication. The point is that there is only one contradiction among all the accounts == whether he thought all the churches were wrong. If Joseph saw God and Jesus as two separate personages, why does the Book of Mormon fail to realize this? It teaches of a modalistic God. No, it does not. It indicates that those who assert this simply do not fully understand Mormon doctrine. Why did he join the Methodist church in 1828? He didn't. https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith's_First_Vision/Joseph_Smith_joined_other_churches#Question:_Did_Joseph_Smith_join_the_Methodist.2C_Presbyterian.2C_or_Baptist_churches_between_1820_and_1830_despite_the_claim_made_in_his_1838_history_that_he_was_forbidden_by_Deity_from_joining_any_denomination.3F "the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son," I am a father, I am a son, I am a grandfather, I am an uncle and a nephew. I am a brother. Christ has many titles, and He is the Father of all those who follow Him, while Eloheim is the Father of every person regardless of whether they follow Christ or not. What's more likely given the evidence? My evidence comes from reading the Book of Mormon and receiving a witness from God that it is His word. Not "just a feeling" but direct, personal revelation. You have to decide for yourself what you will accept as evidence.

DAN VOGEL I have no problem with his ability to have footnotes, but I do have a problem on his discounting extant evidence. Formulating alternative, naturalistic explanations that are devoid of evidence (and which contravene extant evidence). Read his account of the eight witnesses. He basically ignores their statement, draws from the visionary experience of the Three Witnesses. He then creates an imaginary scenario, based on pure speculation, of what happened with NO documentation to support his story. Look it up for yourself. Yes, he documented sources, but he fails to examine or question the reliability of those sources if they agree with agenda. This is a basic duty of a professional historian, source control.

Three Witness statements https://youtu.be/AvA_GDgk6xg?t=4m25s

" Here you are actually admitting that you are unwilling to accept any theory that doesn't fit your existing model." You are correct. But we are all in good company. Evolutionists have their "gap of the gods" -- phenomena which are inexplicable under evolution. A scientist will consider the imponderable contradictions of quantum mechanics with reality, such as the "spooky interaction at a distance", without wincing. Because they have tested it to their satisfaction. I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. ~Richard Feynman "Quantum mechanics....seems to violate some fundamental principles of classical physics, principles that eventually have become a part of western common sense since the rise of the modern worldview in the Renaissance." -- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy I have learned though my personal experience that Joseph Smith was called by the Lord as a prophet. I do not know all things, but of this, I have a certain knowledge. I have tested it to my satisfaction.

CRITIC The prophecy actually says that war shall be poured out upon all nations, starting in South Carolina. That did not happen. RESPONSE And that is exactly what happened, , beginning with the war that started in South Carolina. The technology and tactics developed in the Civil War made a world war possible == using railroads for logistics and troop movement, air war (beginning with observation balloons), trench warfare, iron sided warships, submarines, Sherman's march (civilians were directly attacked) The civil war was the beginning of a new era in warfare. Warfare is much more destructive than it's ever been, and, it's more global than it's ever been. Though certain parts of the world have seen very little peace ever over the thousands of years that people have been living in them, now even small wars among nations or rival groups have a global impact. That wasn't true before the Civil War This was a prophecy directly dictated to a scribe. The punctuation itself was added by the scribe. By altering the punctuation just slightly - adding a period - the subsequent wars are legitimately read as the first world war and the second world war in which the British did indeed seek help from other countries.

CRITIC Did not use the plates during translation. RESPONSE When the plates were taken from Smith because of the lost 116 pages, Smith was UNABLE to translate. It was necessary for him to have the physical possession of the plates in order to translate. Let's take a modern example. We see this with today's computers which communicate with the remote servers. Without BOTH the computer (seer stone) and the remote servers (the plates), we cannot perform our work such as writing a post in this forum. We do not see the servers, but they are necessary nevertheless. The data files are on the server, but we must have the computer, smart phone, tablet to see the data.

"A conclusion is the place where you get tired of thinking" -- Arthur Bloch CRITIC atheist argument #1 "I don't understand, therefore it is false" I do not understand why the Smiths went to revivals while at the same time JS was being persecuted by the very same people. "Yeah, right!" RESPONSE This logical fallacy is called ==>> **Argument from Personal Incredulity** Asserting that opponent’s argument must be false because you personally don’t understand it or can’t follow its technicalities. For instance, one person might assert, “I don’t understand that engineer’s argument about how airplanes can fly. Therefore, I cannot believe that airplanes are able to fly.” Au contraire, that speaker’s own mental limitations do not limit the physical world—so airplanes may very well be able to fly in spite of a person's inability to understand how they work. **One person’s comprehension is not relevant to the truth of a matter** https://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html CRITIC atheist argument #2 "If I were god, I would do things differently == world peace, no disease, no natural disasters, etc." "The god of the Bible did very bad things, and I am morally superior to that kind of god." RESONSE This is a variation on, **Argument from Personal Incredulity**. See above. CRITIC atheist argument #3 "There are so many gods, religions to choose from. That per se is an indication that god is a man made construct." RESPONSE See below, argument from ignorance CRITIC atheist argument #4 "Nobody knew of the first vision until many years later. Therefore it was a fictional story created in hindsight" RESPONSE This is an "unproven assertion" which leads to **Argument from Ignorance** Appealing to a lack of information to prove a point, or arguing that, since the opposition cannot disprove a claim, the opposite stance must be true. An example of such an argument is the assertion that ghosts must exist because no one has been able to prove that they do not exist. Logicians know this is a logical fallacy because no competing argument has yet revealed itself.

"God is spirit" The Bible says that He is a door, a loaf of bread, the truth, a fountain of water, a vine, a narrow path. After His resurrection, Christ made a point that he had a body of flesh and bones, not a spirit. Luke 24 [39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a **spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have** And Christ said "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" If Christ and the Father are ONE, the Bible tells us that they have a body of flesh and bones, that God truly created man in the Image of God. Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God. You can deny it, but the Bible teaches it, and we believe it.

CRITIC JS was a pedophile RESPONSE Many states TODAY don't have a minimum age and as recently as 2001 , a 10 year was married. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States

CRITIC Satanic symbols RESPONSE They are not Satanic symbols. They are Christian symbols == >>they represent the sun the moon and the stars of the three kingdoms of glory. 1 Cor 15 [40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

CRITIC "What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? Was he baptized? No. " (REVISED) RESPONSE Please give us the scripture from the Bible that he was NOT baptized. You are adding words to the Bible. He instantly recognized the Christ and was obviously a disciple of John. Mark 16 [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. **I am quoting the Bible, you are quoting yourself**

CRITIC Salvation by works RESPONSE "The Law" refers to the Law of Moses, and "The Law" does not save us. Mormons do not follow the Law of Moses. We do not believe that we "earn" our way to salvation with works ==>> The Savior’s Atonement makes it possible for us to overcome spiritual death. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who accept the Atonement will be saved from spiritual death (see Articles of Faith 1:3). We accept Christ’s Atonement by placing our faith in Him. Through this faith, we repent of our sins, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and obey His commandments. We become faithful disciples of Jesus Christ. We are forgiven and cleansed from sin and prepared to return and live forever with our Heavenly Father. The Savior tells us, “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer … even as I” (D&C 19:16–17). Christ did His part to atone for our sins. To make His Atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey Him and repent of our sins. https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-12-the-atonement?lang=eng

CRITIC Grace only == (revised) "what more can I offer" vs "Grace CANNOT SUFFICE without TOTAL effort on the part of the recipient." RESPONSE Let's see what Jesus said about your question Matt 25 [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: **enter thou into the joy of thy lord** [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] **And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth** "Not the work itself doing the saving. " Of course works do not save us. But faith without works is dead and dead faith cannot save us.

CRITIC No evidence for BOM RESPONSE In the Arabian peninsula and midEast ==>>NHM, Valley of Lemuel, the land Bountiful, the use of metal (gold) plates for records Ancient midEastern names ==>> sheum, Pahoran, Paanchi, Ammon(Amun), mesoamerica ==>> towers used for religious rites, sophisticated calendar, written codices, the city of Lamanai in Belize, cement cities, elephants (mastodons), language of an Indian tribe with linguistic links to Egyptian, haplogroup X (DNA) with possible link to Druze (midEast)

CRITIC Church whitewashing and hiding history RESPONSE Elder Russell Ballard gave a talk to CES employees. We call this a watershed talk because in this talk he admits that the well-meaning curriculum of the past did not meet the needs of what our youth today need. There needs to be more transparency about our past, so the Brethren are making efforts to change what maybe past leaders thought was important. They have made documents available on the Joseph Smith Papers project, the Mountain Meadows Massacre project was very transparent about what happened in an unfortunate incident. Then they brought forth the Gospel Topics Essays, where they talk about these hot button topics. They are making strides even incorporating these Gospel Topics Essays into our curriculum. So yes, perhaps they should have done more, earlier, but they’re doing the best they can right now to bring that information out. http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2017/05/24/polygamy-questions-joseph-smith/ (copied post from youtube forum)

For me, it is not so much the garments but the tokens, and, for hospital personnel in a nonLDS community, they will only notice an ordinary undershirt and boxer shorts for a very brief period of time. (no pun intended) Obviously the tokens do not show on the back.

CRITIC Temple rites are masonic RESPONSE The LDS temple has no Masonic teachings whatsoever. Do Masons do baptisms for the dead in their temple? No! Are masons into doing genealogical research for family members? No! Do masons base their ceremony around Christs sacrifice? No..Do Masons perform eternal marriages in their temple? No! The only possible similarity are the symbols and signs. But, now we find that these came from the temple of Solomon.

CRITIC Baptism in the Old Testament RESPONSE Bible 1 Corinthians 10 [1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Book of Mormon Mosiah 18 [13] And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. [150 BCE] 2 Nephi 9 [23] And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. [24] And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it. [560 BCE] Note: The Pharasees never questioned what John the Baptist was doing, and even refused to answer Christ when asked if John had the authority to perform that ordinance. They clearly were familiar with this ordinance.

CRITIC Do you know about the "believer's baptism"? RESPONSE Of course I do. It is part of the fake Gospel foisted on Christians by the Pharasees. John the Baptist Matt 16 [16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, *went up straightway out of the water* and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Christ told us very clearly John 3 [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Are you going to follow the Pharasees and their fake gospel, or Jesus Christ.

Bottom line == you are asking the wrong people. The correct answer is that you yourself must decide, and the fact that you are asking what is proper, tells me that the Lord will accept whatever answer you will give. I personally would not pay tithing on it. Missionaries are exempt from tithing, and I feel any grants to me for school falls under a similar category. But that is just me.

CRITIC Blind faith RESPONSE Read the following from the Book of Mormon which deals in an interesting way with the issues of faith vs commonsense and life experiences. An experiment ==>>>> Alma 32 [27] But behold, if ye will awake and *arouse your faculties even to an experiment upon my words* and exercise a *particle of faith* yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words. [28] Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves -- It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me. [29] Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge. [30] But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++==== You now have knowledge == based on faith and intelligence and experience. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [31] And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness. [32] Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.