WillowTheWhisp

I don't think anything that is blatantly anti-Mormon would be permitted to remain on the forum. The moderators are usually pretty hot on editing and removing things like that. I think the same should also apply if it's anti-anything. We can air our views and discuss different beliefs without becoming offensive about someone who believes something different to our own beliefs. The only time I feel there could be a problem is when members disagree with something which is taught by church leaders. They really should make it clear that it's a personal opinion and they know they are going against the official church line. I don't know where the forum stands on that. We have come close to it several times and the discussions been allowed to remain, perhaps because there is a moderator within the thread who has/shares the unofficial viewpoint. On the other hand if we don't have and use our own minds we get accused of being brainwashed.

For me it was a feeling of recognising something I already knew.

What an awful vision to have experienced. What a dreadful thing to go through for those who will do so. I hope I won't be there. I hope my children won't be there.

Do let us know how you get on when you contact the missionaries or visit the church. If it's anything like our Ward they'll be only too pleased to welcome you and help you with any questions you may have.

It's strange how people will more readily believe something they want to believe when it enforces a negative stereotype than believe something positive when it is presented by someone who was actually there.

At what age do they suggest it becomes inappropriate? I have seen 8 - 12 year old girls at church wearing strappy sun tops and short skirts and I find it embarrassing. My girls have never worn anything like that and have never expressed any desire to do so. In fact because they have grown up wearing modest clothing they have never had any issues with it. They have looked at those wearing skimpy things and said that they do not like how it makes them look "trashy"

That accent is so familiar to me - we've got a Scottish Stake President! He's brilliant.

But isn't that exactly the point? MOF is talking about repentance and forgiveness which is what the Atonement is all about. Jesus didn't say don't come to me having sinned, I would rather you were dead than repent and ask forgiveness.

Tell critics that you respect their right to have an opinion and ask them to respect your right to have yours. You don't have to agree with each other, just accept each other. I found that it also helps if people are being very hurtful about your beliefs to remember something Jesus said, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (Matthew 5:11-12)

Wasn't there a war in Heaven and a third of the spirits followed Satan and the rest of us who didn't have passed onto the next stage by coming to earth to receive a body? That's what the missionaries teach.

I've just been reading a news item which includes psychiatric report on the effect this will have had on the children. It's heartbreaking, and even so there are people who say flippant things like "well at least they got to play outside and ride bikes" which shows the ignorance of the life the children did lead on the ranch. They were not imprisoned indoors there! I've also noted the comparison with the previously mentioned "Short Creek" raid in the 50s where the children were actually allowed to stay with their siblings and mothers unlike this recent situation. Those children were badly effected in spite of that so how much worse is the effect going to be of having been torn away from anyone and everyone they love?

Could you clarify that Hemi? I know a few handicapped people who have been baptised. Do you mean mentally handicapped people who have a mental age of under 8?

As others have already said, people don't convert other people the Holy Spirit does that. Be a friend. Be willing to answer questions. Be an example. Let your friend see how your life has changed. Pray for your friend.

Yes the three are VERY different, but to a child brought up in a society which regards the body as sacred and not to be touched in private places by anyone other than a spouse after marriage. the clinical examination by a doctor after the child has been removed from home and parents and would already be under a great deal of stress due to that, is a lot closer to a traumatic violation than it would be to someone who may have experienced previous clinical examinations by strangers and have been accompanied in the doctor's surgery by their loving mother. To have total strangers examining and touching their intimate areas would be totally unthinkable for these children. They probably do feel violated. I have a friend who was raped as a child. She was taken to the police station by her mother and subject to medical examinations which in her memory are just as traumatic to her as the rape itself. How can you say the children will not be affected by these examinations when nothing was ever done to them before? It will not seem platonic to them. My friend being examined did not feel it was a platonic experience even though as an adult she knows it was necessary. It doesn't make it any easier to have gone through the experience of total strangers doing that.

It depends. If it's a discussion and all has been said on that subject which needs to be said then I wouldn't be offended by not getting another message. Crikey I couldn't keep up continual correspondence with everyone I've ever written to on a message board in PMs. There wouldn't be enough hours in the day. Sometimes I may not message them individually for ages but then suddenly something else may crop up on the same subject and I'll contact them again later. I personally see nothing wrong with this and am surprised if others do.

It depends on what type of abuse you are referring to. If you mean physical abuse such as beating then there probably was more of it in the past because people were afraid to speak out against it. Unfortunately I feel we have gone too far in the opposite direction and people are unable to distinguish between a light smack which hurt pride more than body and a physical beating which left a child wounded and injured. In some circumstances there can be no other way of dealing with a situation such as a child reaching out to touch a flame or banging on a window which could break. There is no time to discuss the danger with the child before they have hurt themselves. The child may even be too young to understand a reasoned explanation. A sharp tap on the back of the hand and they stop - then you can explain as much as the child is able to understand. I think a lot of society's problems with ferral children stem from the lack of discipline because people are just afraid to discipline children for fear of getting into trouble for doing so. If, however, you are referring to sexual abuse then I think there is a heck of a lot more of it nowadays and the sexual portrayal of children in the media has a lot to answer for. When I was a kid, kids in films looked like kids. They did kid things like climbing trees and getting muddy and mucky. Nowadays teenage girls on TV are all make up and adult clothing and talking about dating and boyfriends. Dating at 12/13? I was still playing tomboy games at that age. I also agree about the sort of clothing available for children these days. I was appalled to see the young girl, friend of my daughter, wearing a t-shirt with the slogan "If you think this looks good on me, it would look better on your bedroom floor" and the mother thought it was "just a bit of fun". Strappy low cut figure hugging tops and very short skirts are considered normal - people who wear modest clothing are considered "freaks". The Playboy logo has become accepted as a range of children's clothing, accessories and bedroom furniture. What message is that giving? As for the names of TV programs such as "Sex in the City" - the word "sex" was never even mentioned on TV or in films unless it was X-rated. If a love scene was shown it usually cut away from the kiss to romantic music playing whilst waves washed up onto a distant shore or birds sang in the trees, or the stars twinkled in a moonlit sky. Passionate bedroom scenes were never displayed. If couples were shown in bed then he always wore a smart set of pyjamas neatly buttoned up and she had her hair in curlers and a face mask on. How can we think that portraying so much blatant sexuality will not lead to people wanting to fulfill fantasies? We put it on open display and then appear horrified when people want it.

Sounds interesting. I hope they come here. We are certainly going to need much more economical vehicles.

Hmmmm ........... I think that sounds too much like the Islamic idea of honour for me. I would rather have a live child who could repent and then live a long and happy life.

So at 19 he married a teenage girl? Not 'at 50 he married a 14 year old'? I'm getting more and more confused by all the contradictory information being given. If adult men are having sex with underage girls then that is wrong. I don't disagree with that. It's illegal and it's wrong, just as it's wrong when all the hundreds of none FLDS people do it. However that doesn't make it any more right to have removed all the FLDS children from their parents and more than it would be right to remove all Baptist children from their families if one Baptist teenage girl gets pregnant.

Here we go again. The perpetual Myth that all teenage FLDS girls are married to elderly husbands. Labour and childbirth would have been a lot more strain on her body than intercourse for any 14 year old. I thought it was teen pregnancy which caused most physical problems.

My own GP is not quick to prescribe anti-depressants at all and when my daughter was going through her worst she would not prescribe any medication but only referred her to a (voluntary) therapist/counsellor. I don't think the medical profession here hand out tablets with as much gay abandon as they used to. I do believe though that there are times when they are necessary and should be respected just as much as medication for any other illness. It still surprises me that there are people who seem to think you can 'just snap out of it' or do something to help yourself when it is absolutely impossible to even motivate yourself to do the simplest of tasks. I went through a very bad time many years ago and it wasn't the medication which turned me into a zombie. It was the depression itself.

Yes I think they can here too. The irony is that they can be treated for something so serious without parental consent and yet they can't be given a headache tablet or even have sun screen applied at school.

I'm appalled that he has been jailed. She is obviously the one in the wrong for intentionally misleading him. As it says in the article. How many more? These two young men will now have a criminal record which I personally feel is unjustified.

This sounds very much like something I experienced in a dream where I was convinced I was drowning. At first it was a struggle as I was unable to breathe and swallowed water. My lungs hurt but then as I gave in to it the struggle was replaced by a calm peacefulness with no pain or fear. It seemed so real to me at the time that I totally lost any fear I previously had of drowning. I do not get on well with water in large quantities and waves make me dizzy so I have never mastered swimming as I just go dizzy in a pool.

Thank you for that interesting article. It makes more sense that the place names would have a relationship to places and people of the old world where the Nephites originated.