WillowTheWhisp

It's hard to answer this thread without testimony coming into it. Many years ago, not long after we were baptised, my late husband and I left the church. We didn't go inactive. We left. We had our names deleted from the records. We'd been married and sealed in the temple but we lost all that when we had our names removed. We didn't leave because we no longer thought the church was true. I never once doubted that the church was true, and my husband still used to carry a Book of Mormon around in the car. If anyone brought up any anti-Mormon subjects we would be quick to defend the truth. So why on earth did we leave? For me it was a mixture of things. The first was that as new converts we were overwhelmed with the image of perfection which was placed before us of what we ought to be - and I tried to be everything all at once, including an immediate 12 months storage which cost a fortune and then left us with credit card bills which were another 'sin'. Sisters who had been in the church 40 years or more were held up as an example of what I should be like, but then I saw one of these 'perfect' women laughing at a crude joke which I found embarrassing. I served on the RS Presidency and was shocked at the way two sisters in a position of responsibility criticized another sister in the Ward. There was a priesthood holder who drove me up the wall with his nit picking and fault finding. Finally I drew two conclusions - one that I would never be able to reach this goal of perfection because I always failed in one way or another, and two that if the Celestial Kingdom was going to be populated by the hypocrites I'd found in the church then they were welcome to it because I didn't want to spend eternity with them! All the time I was not a church member I never actually doubted that Joseph Smith was a prophet or that the Book of Mormon was true. My husband and I even went to other churches trying to find somewhere where the members were 'human' like us but wherever we went they didn't believe the things we believed. They didn't believe in the pre-existence. They didn't believe God is our literal Heavenly Father and Jesus our brother. They didn't believe that those who have died without hearing the gospel are still able to hear and accept it in the spirit world. Some didn't even believe that Satan was a real individual. There was nowhere else which taught the full truth and we knew what the truth was. We were still in touch with some church members and one day when helping out one sister we met a missionary couple who asked us which ward we belonged to. When we told them we weren't church members they looked surprised because we obviously knew and agreed with everything they believed. That was when we realised that we had left the church because of people and yet we had joined the church because of Christ. We were re-baptised and eventually had our temple blessings restored and our children were born in the covenant. The hypocrites - well some of them are still hyprocrites, some have changed and grown spiritually, some have themselves left the church. I am no longer here because of people and I will never leave because of people. I'm here because it's true, because I know it's true and nothing anyone says or does will ever change the fact that it's true. The only person I hurt by leaving the church was me. I was saddened to read in a previous post of a sister who makes another sister's life a misery by her appalling attitude and actions. I'm even more saddened if I have read and understood correctly that the Branch President does not want to know about these problems because they want a spiritual branch and facing these problems reduces the spirituality. Oh how very wrong. It is not facing up to such problems which reduces the spirituality. Glossing over them and pretending they do not exist is Satan's way. The Lord's way is to face them and solve them and by doing so you grow stronger. The sister who is doing these despicable things is doing nothing for her own spirituality and needs to be helped to recognise this. I have known many people who seemed 'holier than thou' but were in fact totally lacking in humility, teachability and spirituality. It's a bit like climbing up a rameumptum and letting people see how holy you are instead of bowing your head in humility before the Lord and admitting how holy you aren't. Don't stay in the church, or leave the church for people around you. Do it for yourself and for the Lord.

In all my years in the church I have never been asked for proof of income when attending tithing settlement. My Bishop just asks if I'm a full tithe payer and I say 'yes'. He then shows me the record of what the church acknowledges as having received from me so that I can check up on the church, not the church check up on me. It's so that I can see that everything I have paid in has been received and none gone astray. There was one time when something did go astray, or at least didn't show up on my tithing settlement and we worried about what on earth could have happened to it. I later discovered the envelope had slipped down behind a fire surround and got lodged between it and the wall. It had never been opened. Once discovered, that was added to my current tithing and all was well. It didn't stop me being classed as a full tithe payer but it did show how important it was to check up on these things. I am currently married to a non-member and do not pay tithing on his income, only on mine.

But he prophesies of Christ - or are you saying that Isaiah was referring to some other Messiah? Is this why the Jews are still waiting for him to come?

Before I joined the church I used to dread trying to read Isaiah because I couldn't make head or tail of a lot of it. Now it makes a lot more sense to me because I understand when he is talking about. It makes all the Messianic prophecies all the more beautiful.

I agree with what Loudmouth Mormon says. You need to make it perfectly clear to him, her and the Branch President that you are offended by him and his appalling treatment of his wife. I'm also a bit surprised that someone would quit a mission to come home and marry and that someone would expect someone to do that. I would have more admiration for a person who would encourage the missionary to complete their mission and 'return with honour'. If there's a lesson to be learned here too it is to stay well away from married men bearing cookies

Have you actually prayed to know if Joseph Smith is a prophet? Have you prayed to know if the Book of Mormon is true? For every person who can 'prove' something to you there is another person who can 'prove' the opposite. The only way you can know for sure is by the Holy Ghost. It took me about a year to figure that one out.

Well if I had your calling and someone said that to me I would probably reply, "I don't know sister, how do you think I can help you? Will you help me to learn what I should do?"

I can relate to where you're coming from. I did exactly the same thing. I didn't want to be taught by missionaries who in my opinion had been trained to brainwash people. I wanted to find out for myself by reading as much as I could. I read the Book of Mormon. Then I borrowed a book from our local library about Brigham Young called something like "The Lion of Judah". The next thing I read was "Truth Restored" by Gordon B. Hinckley. If you want to look for LDS books online check out this site.

Well the great thing about baptism is that it washes away all past transgressions and gives you a whole new start. That's an amazing thing. The Saviour takes upon himself the responsibility for everything you may have done wrong so that you no longer have to worry about it - and nor should anyone else.

I eat plenty of garlic so I should be safe.

I didn't think a Bishop could do that. When my late husband was WML if the Bishop met with someone before Baptism it was only on a sociable getting to know you sort of level, not an interrogation to see if they were worthy. The Baptism interview was always conducted by a missionary.

It all depends on your perspective I suppose. There are some Wards where white people are in a distinct minority.

Wanderer, if you have not yet been baptised then as far as I know you have no need to discuss any past transgressions with your Bishop. When you are baptised, baptism washes away all past sins and you get a clean slate.

From what I've been taught, if you don't marry you can't achieve exaltation in the highest degree of glory but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to settle for the first available marriage partner. I've told my girls to look for someone they can go to the temple with and be sealed to for eternity.

Where did you get that information from Stampede? I'm really curious because I'm sure the one on our temple has been changed. I'll have to take a compass with me next time I go. if I can remember.

If the water level is normally set on high then person A should have reset it. If the water level is changed often then person B should have checked it.

Thanks for that. I think I must have been carried away with the susquecentennial stuff here when all that was going on.

Pushka's baptism! :) What a sweet spirit filled service and what a lovely lady. There should be a photo coming soon as one of the elders took one or two (one with me and my daughter with Pushka) Oooh I'm so excited. I love baptisms. It reminds me of how I felt when I was baptised and to feel so excited about the Gospel. One of the elders played some beautiful violin music of the hymns whilst waiting for Pushka to get changed. That was so lovely. It was funny explaining to people who we were and how come we came to be invited. I'll leave Pushka to tell you more about the baptism itself. I'm sure she's still on cloud 9. :)

I hope one day that you can tell her. It's important that you tell her, that she knows ................... knows because she hears it from you and can be touched by that knowing just as you are obviously so touched by this and have touched others by what you have shared here.

Can somebody give me some more detailed information about this Hoffman? It seems like over there in the US you guys know things that we don't get to hear about over here. So I'm totally ignorant about most of this discussion and would love to know more. Are there any on-line links you can post so I can read up on it?

I'm not sure I've ever come across anyone who was 'scandalised' - if I disagree with someone who is equally firm in their beliefs then we just agree to disagree. There really isn't any other way to behave is there?

He called them gods to whom the word of God came Of course, because only those to whom the word of God comes will receive exaltation and become gods. Makes perfect sense to me.

That is anti. It isn't a question. It's a disagreement. I haven't seen the originl post or how people responded to it but I do find it very surprising that two missionaries could be reduced to tears by the posters friend and father-in-law, unless it was tears for them because they couldn't accept the truth of the Gospel.

This is a very busy forum and with the best will in the world the moderatos can't always read every post. That's why there is a report button, so that things can be brought to their attention. I'm a moderator on two forums and we appreciate the members reporting things which concern them. It may be that we don't consider the post to be a problem, in which case we take no action but it may well be that we feel some action needs to be taken and appreciate having the matter brought to our attention.

If people have genuine questions which we can answer and perhaps enlighten them on something they may have misconceptions about then I think it's valid. If they are just posting criticism for the sake of tearing the Church to shreds then you have a point.