Traveler

Nice post CH. I believe the point of the parable of the 10 virgins is not to try to know the moment (year or decade) when Jesus comes but to have prepared well in advance, all needful things. There are two keys: First is the contemplating of what comprises needful things and (second) knowing the difference between needful things and what are the un-needful things that constitutes excess burden. When I was a scoutmaster I would always point out to my scouts that being prepared is the heart of scouting and one of the greatest “secrets” of life. Often when we were camping and a scout would complain about the particular “bad” weather we were having I would respond with a particular phrase: “There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad equipment, bad preparation and bad choices as the weather changes.” One of the greatest learning experiences for my scouts was the “50 miler” backpacking expedition. The reason I like it so much it because the boys quickly learned what was necessary and sufficient to have in their back pack and what was useless extra dead weight – and I would not have to say a thing, by the end of the first day they all would have come to the same conclusions. I could lecture and provide lists of things and even have pack inspections that would not change even one mind – but one day of carrying their pack convinced them of what is needed and what is excess. What is the oil? We could talk this to death and it will not change even one mind. I wonder what we must face (activity our master has cooked up) to convince us of what is needed in our back pack and what is excess? The Traveler

I think that there is a great misunderstanding in human nature. I do not believe that culture diversity has anything to do with social distrust and fragmentation – now or ever. The breakdown, fragmentation and distrust are all symptoms of a social structure that has lost the ability to meat justice to all its citizens. The first obligation of a social structure is to protect the innocent. The second (secondary) is to punish the guilty. This is the very heart of why vengeance creates more distrust and fragmentation. Under vengeance the goal becomes to punish the guilty even at the expense of some collateral innocence. Even in a brutal police state there will not be distrust and fragmentation if such justice is meted to all. It is only when some are awarded “privilege” that resentment and fragmentation really take place. What is interesting to me is that so many seem to think they deserve some unearned “privilege” just for them and not for others – this is the heart of distrust and fragmentation. Even with in the landscape of religion there is resentment when some of one religion touts unearned eternal privilege before G-d that will be withheld from others, based not on personal merit and investment but on specific conceptual affiliations. The Traveler

I am not sure but I may be beating the parable of the 10 virgins to death. If anyone has attempted to use the ancient lamps mentioned in the parable they would have a better understanding of what is going on with the oil. Most likely the lamps Jesus referred to are small, do not hold very much oil and do not give off much light. There is a handle at one end by which the lamp is held, a large opening on top and a spout or small hole opposite the handle. A wick is placed in the spout or hole and is lit for the light. The lamps are somewhat difficult to light (even with a match which they did not have them) and will go out in any wind. (Just a side note here – anciently many pagan religions had rituals and prayers for lighting a lamp because of the difficulty – some believed that only by appeasing a light g-d would a lamp successfully be lit and provide light. Therefore a lighted lamp was often used to symbolize someone pleasing or acceptable to the g-ds. I wonder if Jesus used this concept in presenting his parable. If so it is a concept mostly lost in time.) I have wondered if this concept does apply in that the effort, belief and faith of some is not acceptable (as per the sacrifice of Cain) where such effort, belief and faith of others, is acceptable (as per the sacrifice of Able). Seldom do the lamps hold much more than about an hour worth of oil – which means that the lamps often run out of oil and need replacement and often must be relit. It is interesting that in the parable the virgins seemed to be required to keep their own lamp lit and not work as a team. The Traveler

Think again, the polar ice in Antarctica is on land not water. When that ice melts, where will the water go? How thick is the polar ice in Antarctica? And what % of the earth does it cover and what % is the earth is currently ocean? The estimate is that if the ice melts in Antarctic the ocean will rease from 12 to 20 feet. It may not flood the whole earth but it will flood enough of the earth that the populations concentrated in costal areas near sea level will be flooded. The ocean will run past its boundries.The Traveler

PC. Thanks for your input - you know that I always enjoy conversing with you on subjects. It means a lot to me because I know your heart is good even thought you have different views. As we have talked on this subject of virgins - I wonder??? Could it be the the virgins are believers and that their hearts have the spirit and that they are converted. But 5 are not completly converted - they are not whole in their beliefs. But they do believe and the spirit has witnessed to them. The Traveler

This is a most interesting question Ray. To be honest I had not considered this part of the parable until you asked the question. According to Jesus as he gave the parable - you purchase the oil from those that sell it. In other words you must pay for it. I had not thought of that before but the ancient concept of paying for something did have ancient significance related to worship. For example to give money to observe the epoch of Baal was considered a form of worship and those of Israel that did such were reproved by prophets of G-d for their failure to not worship other G-ds. The Traveler

Two factors deter me from believing that the virgins were all believers, but that the five lacked something. A. It would be common for the friends of a couple getting married to be virgins. After all, they were not married, and I doubt that 95% of New Testament unmarried people had premarital sex. B) B. The rejection of the 5 who lacked oil would seem quite harsh and definite, if these were 'believers' who lacked something. The missing 'oil' is very likely the Holy Spirit, and these 5 virgins were those who believed, but did not have intimacy with Jesus. From a conversation with a Jewish Rabbi I was given to understand that the ancient term "virgin" implied one worthy and clean and able to perform rituals and ordinances at the temple (among other sacred things that required cleanlyness). It meant cut off from the world and all worldly things (unspotted by the things of man). The concept of sex and only sex is a modern interpertation according to my Rabbi friend. This is also backed up with documents I have read from the Dead Sea Scrolls which are from the exact same time period. I agree that the result is quite harsh but I think Jesus is making a most important point - to which we ought to pay attention and above all else be sure that we are not foolish and make sure our lamps have oil. I think he is saying that at least 50% of those that think they have all that is necessare are 100% wrong. The Traveler

Outshined and a few other seem to be only the right track. The earth is getting warmer but so is the sun. The sun is the cause of current and past global warming. I agree that we all should be prudent and avoid waist. But lets us not convict anybody to death based on faulty testimony. If we are going to outlaw or think we must change something or die we must have better that circumstantial evidence. The earth has gone through many cycles of global warming and cooling without man messing up the climate. Until we know and account for what caused it in the past - we will not and cannot change anything for the better in the future. The Traveller

It's my understanding that they knew ofChrist, but did not have a true relationship with him. On optimistic view is that once the rapture takes place, many with Christian knowledge will realize the truth of it, and will repent and truly give their lives over to Jesus. Most of these will likely be martyred during the seven years of tribulation, but they will have a place of honor in the kingdom of God. Just a follow up because I am not connecting the dots I think I see. Jesus himself is presenting the parable of the 10 virgins. Had he used a term other than "virgin" I could understand in part your interpretation. It is my interpretation that because Jesus used the term "virgin" that all 10 had a very personal relationship with Jesus. It is also my impression that the five foolish should have known better. The amount of oil for the ancient lamps is almost trivial. It appears to me that Jesus is making a very important point. Why would anyone bring their lamp without any oil? Mere is my problem – the five foolish would not have come and waited half the night without a personal relation to the groom. They could have stayed home and sleep without exposing themselves. But oil is what makes the lamp work and oil is not provided by G-d or anyone else. I think Jesus is saying that to be a “virgin” taken into the wedding feast that a believer must be invested beyond believing, having faith or even a personal relationship. I think oil is symbolic of something else. I think the error is ascribing anything specific as being the oil. I think Jesus is indicating that we should be careful and make sure we are fully or completely invested and not compare what we have to what other’s have (everyone could see the lamp – but not the oil. Therefore the foolish virgins “look” and appear like the wise (growing among the wheat) and do not know they are not complete – and will not abide tribulations – perhaps thinking they need not prepare for tribulations. The Traveler

Great post - my experience is different and at the same time similar. My father and mother are the best parents one could have. My father was well respected and honored in the community. I thought I understood what a family meant - I learned much more when I became a parent and father myself.The Traveler I am sure I asked this before but I am not sure why and how you think or believe that G-d loves your individual sole. Does he love your sole because you are a Christian? Is there a sole he does not love and value? I may be bating you with these questions because I have a very strong opinion on this matter and I am seeing if you and I can find another thing to agree on. The Traveler

I have heard about the concept of a (rapture) but I have never been able to connect the dots. For example in the parable of the 10 virgins I see the faithful in Christ waiting until he comes but some (half) lack oil - is it your understanding that when they go into the wedding feast that the rapture is taking place? It is believed that anyone left behind is not worthy and will not be part of the kingdom that Jesus will bring? I have always had problems with the parable of the 10 virgins because it is my understanding the symbol of virgins is those that are dedicated and sanctified as "TRUE" believers in Christ. I do not understand how they could be virgins and lack the Holy Spirit. Just for fun here is a possible scenario for an end of time disaster. Just within the last 10 years a “super” volcano, the world’s second largest was discovered beneath the ice cap of Antarctic. The volcano was discovered trying to trace down a 3 degree rise in temperature that was thought due to global warming. This volcano is increasing in activity and from the latest data will erupt sometime within the next 500 years. When this volcano erupts it will melt enough ice to raise the level of the oceans throughout the world from 12 to 20 feet. This will displace 80% of the world population in less then 48 hours. I believe the scriptures talk about the oceans “overflowing” their boundaries. If you are one of the “left behind” you can join me in helping as many and as much as we can. The Traveler

I think this is talking about a "King" and "Kingdom" not theocracy. The problem with kings overseeing a kingdom on earth is that righteous kings are few and far between. Even in a democratic republic - how many good representives can we find? The Traveler

I will speak for myself - which may or may not be the concept of all LDS or all Christians. I believe that we all must choose. I believe a chose is not in ignorance but is made from knowledge and that knowledge is not faith. I believe that every person will know of that glorious place where G-d dwells and that many will look upon such a heaven and say “This is not what I want for all eternity – is there not something more suitable for what I desire?” To which G-d will respond, “Yes my child that I love so dearly – I have prepared a place that is an exact match for what you desire. I would that you would desire to live with me as I live but since your heart is not in such things you shall receive according to what your heart desires.” I believe this because I see it happen every day, people do what “they” want to do. Doing what G-d want seem to be a path few take, even among those that say they love doing according to G-d’s will and commandments. I do not believe that any person, that G-d loves, that looks upon that heavenly kingdom where G-d dwells and with all their heart desires to be there – That G-d will cast them into an eternal hell and be happy about it. I believe that the only souls in hell are the souls that want to be is such a place and believe they should have what they want. Heaven knows we all believe what we want. The Traveler

When the Scripture says that every eye will see him, and every knee will bow and every tongue confess, I presume that there won't be anything to debate. Jesus will reveal himself in undeniable Son of God fashion. Sorry I took so long - please let us consider some ideas together. The scripture that indicates that we will see him is in Matt 24:30. But what we will see is much more than Jesus. This is why I ask if we (you) have a clear idea of exactly what you expect to see or if you are not really sure but think you will know when something quite spectacular occurs. (This is not meant to be flippant – I am just trying to pick your brain because to be honest I am not quite sure on this myself). The scripture of every knee shall bow and every tongue confess is in Isaiah and it is my impression that this is speaking of another event that will take place at another time and place (ie. The final judgment). I am asking you to be as specific as you can concerning your opinion of what you mean by “Jesus will reveal himself in undeniable Son of God fashion”. (Matt 24:27 should be a clue but I do not know what that means.) As far as natural disasters, I believe that Matt 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be." Is a clue that something out of the ordinary as far as disasters will take place. If you like I could post some possibilities that are quite close but I do not think anything I have experienced in my lifetime is even close to being a real indication. One of the indications from scripture that concerns me is the parable of the 10 virgins. My understanding is that virgins refer to someone that believes and has faith in the coming of Jesus. It is also my understanding that a virgin is someone that thinks they are looking for his coming with joy in their heart. They are believers and they have faith - or they would not be call virgins and would not gather for his coming. But they were not ready. They lacked oil. Everyone I talk to on this matter thinks they have oil and it is someone else that does not understand what needs to be prepared. I am inclined to believe that no less than 50% of us that think we are ready and have prepared every needful thing will have forgotten something and we will have something to acomplish. The Traveler

As always you see well beneath the surface of things. The power of creation given by G-d to covenant parents married according to G-d's plan may be the most boldly taking of the L-rd's name possible. Likewise it could be the most blasphemous and vain taking of the L-rd's name to abuse the marriage covenant.The Traveler

Yes. How I don't know. He could simply be televised. Or, he could simply reveal himself physically for all to see. God's never been bound by human technology or limitations. This is in part exactly why I ask. If we do not know exactly what it is we expect to see - how will we be sure when we see it or something that is not really it but that many many people seem sure that it is? I have an idea of the signs but I do not see that big of changes from history to say that there really are more and more powerful earth quakes. That war is involving more of mankind and the nations of mankind. That famines and disease are killing more people than in the past. Or that wickedness has reached the point that it is a definite sign. The two signs that I feel are taking place is a “restitution of all things” – in process but not complete. And the gathering of the Jews to Jerusalem – also in process but not complete – most Jews have not returned to Jerusalem and the rest of the tribes of Israel are still lost (ie the gathering by the house of Joseph). The Traveler

So, how about you. Which church teaching touches you the most? Which do you find compelling or fascinating? </span> I agree with your observation - that man lived a premortal existance in the presents of G-d, they we are G-d's spiritual offspring, and our destiny is to <span style="color:#993399">return to that presents of G-d, clothed with a resurrected physical body (the same as Jesus - which is the example of the Father).The Traveler

Allow me to edit: Thought - love is what makes and defines <strike>a</strike> G-d. To which I respond: And, as his creation, I am honored to be a vessel of that love. Followup: I do see where you're going with this Traveler. You believe that G-d is teaching us to become what He is, and that He's not merely after submissive worship, but desires to empower us to so that we can become what He is. As always you know me quite well (you should also know I am not trying to "put something over on you") - but if you would allow me to also followup and respond: I believe that G-d (as properly understood) is the "Image" or "Model" of exactly the destiny G-d has planned for man and the reason for man's creation and that defines the very difference between the creation of man and the the rest of creation. It would appear to me that G-d intends that we inherit all his attributes (including power and creator of life or "Father") - I cannot perceive of a single possibility of a difference that would separate or differentiate the saints that are "one" with G-d from G-d. Therefore I see nothing to differentiate - which I believe both defines and recognizes G-d's "unlimited" love. The Traveler

Traveler, it's quite appropriate to spell out His full name, God, so long as it's not being used to defile him. To me, writing "G-d" belittles who He is. He is our God. You may have to classify the ancient scriptures and those prophets and scribes that wrote and maintined the sacred text as avoiding the appropriate spelling of G-d. There was not a single reference that followed your guidelines. The Traveler

What exactly will they see? I know the scriptures says they will see Jesus but do you really think that the saints of New England will see the same details as the saints of Florida? As far as signs of his coming. If you are referring to historical events taking place - what events are so different from events of history that you feel the second coming of Christ is eminent? Myself, I feel his coming is approaching but I do not feel that it is imminent. Perhaps we should define imminent. I would define imminent as within 10 years. There are two interesting scriptures in Ecclesiastes. The first is 3:1. This indicates that the things of G-d unfold in a predetermined order and are groped according to the "season" of that order.The second is 1:9. This indicates that the things of G-d occur like the seasons in cycles and that the events of the past are a templet of what is to come. One thing I find quite interesting is the lack of communications (scriptures) between G-d and man prior to Christ's first coming. It would appear to me that not only is it important for devout believers (10 virgins) to prepare but to know when to prepare and what to prepare. The Traveler

There are 3 excellent books that have influenced my thinking on the subject of Law, justice, morals and the evolution of political thinking. The first book is a short and a 1 day read titled "The Law" by Frederic Bastiat. This nifty little book deals with justice and what is just law and what is abuse of law. I first read this book over 30 years ago and have never found a better reference for dealing with politics. The book was recommended to me by a friend in Law school (studying US constitutional law) that was required reading for him. The Second book is a big read “Generations” by Neil Howe & William Strauss. This book deals with the evolution of government (politics) through eras (generations) that cycle because of different values that are stressed in different generations. The final book is titled “Values and Teaching” by Louis E. Raths. This is a most interesting book and deals with how children develop and clarify values and morals. It is a rather interesting book that deals with what can be called the “back lash” effect which occurs when a proctor of values places themselves outside, exempt or above of the moral landscape of the student – like the parent that says, “I’m the parent, I make the rules and you must do as I say or I will punish you; only if you do as I say I will reward you.” The more advanced point is that life is an experience of learning eternal values and morals. By definition if a person is limited in what they can learn and achieve that is a “damned soul”. The scripture John 8:32 talks about freedom. But other than G-d – who is really free? My thought is that G-d loves us and intends to make us free; not on a level of that which is created but on a divine, eternal level – as only he is free. Whenever there has been an effort to free people throughout the history of man there has been civil war to accomplish liberty of the people. It would seem that those that covet power cannot believe that the power of liberty should be given to all. Even in heaven there was civil war over the eternal liberty of man. As long as the power to govern rest on one or a few there is no liberty for all. Only if G-d is willing to make us as equal can there be liberty in eternity. If G-d intends to make us free – there must be equality. If he is the exception then Jesus lied when he said truth would make us free – ether that of Jesus did not really mean what I understand concerning liberty and freedom “on earth as it is in heaven”. The Traveler

Thought - love is what makes and defines a G-d. The Traveler

There is tension and harmony between the ideas of liberty and protection of the innocent. The article does not pretend to comprehensively address this tension, other than to argue that morality is strongest when our default position is to embrace liberty (vs. coercion). When I served as a missionary my mission president once told me: "There is no pressure when the resistance is gone." Jesus said: "My peace I give unto you." Liberty is not an individual thing in that no one can take liberty from someone else for any effort to do so will only end in their loss of liberty. I do not believe a person is making a "liberating" choice if they allow the innocent to go unprotected or the guilty to go unpunished. What many do not seem to understand is the difficulty in understanding what is innocence and what is the guilty. Equal access does not come through the courts - when there is equal access it comes from a democratic people. Democracy is not just about voting - is is a process of the people in control. Nazi Germany came into being through the illusion of democracy. The very fact that the majority of the people did not approve on the Nazi but did not stop the Nazis is prof that the process sprang from something other than democracy. In other words what they chose was not what they got - that is not democracy. Perhaps the problem here is the ill use of the term "Tyranny". The definition implies that the power is with the few - not the many. Tyranny implies secrets, betrayals and a enslaved people which is the opposite of democratic people. 1. Jesus did not come to set us free but to teach us how to free ourselves. (my understanding of John 8:31) 2.I agree with you input to justice - my question concerns if G-d is just and if so does he require that those that believe in him believe in his justice? What is the justice of G-d??? - many talk about his forgiveness and grace but they leave out his justice. Let me ask this another way - Does G-d's justice appoint blessings to those that do nothing to "earn" them? Or must justice be earned? 3. About Equality - G-d asks us to think in terms of equality but does he ask of us what he is unwilling to submit to of himself. Does G-d exclude himself when it comes to thinking and teaching of equality? BTW - I am not attempting to set a trap for you - I think you know me better than that. I am trying to determine your personal beliefs concerning - liberty, justice, morals and how your religion influences your understanding. The Traveler

I would not drink - I do not like stimulants or drugs. Even when I go to the dentist to have an new filling I request no drugs. I would rather have the pain than the effects. I know this is extreme but I have learned (through meditation) to place mind over matter and I do not like being disconnected from or not aware of the physical experience G-d has given to me. I understand that we all make choices - if someone values their choices and has no desire to change them - I do not condemn them - the outcome is their choice. If they want to change something, I feel that I should help them but if they know what they desire out of life it is also my duty to realize that is their right. The Traveler

We are his creation--one that He was proud of. But everything is his creation -- he is proud of all his creation. Why of all his creations is man different? or is there no difference in how G-d expresses his love to man (Sorry this is such a loaded question - but I do not buy into the idea that he only loves us because he created us. I think the most critical piece of the puzzle is missing) These two questions actually go together. The first part of 1 Cor. 13 informs us that the fruit of the Spirit is love. So, if we are to live in (and live out) God's love, we need to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and allow him to work out his love in us. So, our love does not compete with God's love. Rather, God's love becomes our love. Let me ask the same question with different words - If we love as he loves are we equal to G-d? Or is loving as G-d loves a fantasy that can never be? It would seem to me that the gospel is about much more that believing in G-d - it is the ultimate prof. The Traveler