Traveler

I am sorry to do this to you but you have a problem with modern science and physics. Your thinking appears to be stuck in the “Dark Ages”. With the advent of “Relativity” we have been able to understand the paradigm model our “expanding” universe much better. When we speak of an expanding universe we are not just speaking about the universe getting bigger. Bigger is incorrect because the universe is expanding. This means that dimensional space is expanding. If dimensional space is expanding – what is it expanding into? This question can be most difficult for an uneducated mind because dimensional space is expanding into non-dimensional space. This means that what exist “outside” of our universe is non-dimensional space or singularity. To make this as simple as I can it means that all the “points” outside of dimensional space is the exact same point. I am quite sure from your “Dark Ages” arguments that you are not well versed in modern physics or Relativity. If the Celestial Kingdom (Heaven) is fashioned some what similar to our universe (why would it be less complex) you are off in a very foolish tangent with you question and are about 1,000 years displaced in time. There are so many flaws in your post I do not know where to start. Is it possible that you could limit yourself to one, perhaps simple notion and we could start from s single premises? If you are going to attempt to mix understanding of science and religion it might help if you started out with something consistent and a logical union of both. The notion of light and darkness in physics is not as simple as many like to draw the line. I suspect that in reality light and darkness in the divine or spiritual sense (as G-d defines) is not less complex. For example; do you understand why “Dark energy” may not cause gravitational bending? This plays into a most interesting possibility in “separating” light from darkness which is spoken of in scripture. Is it possible that G-d hid something in scripture that was not understood anciently but would have clearer understanding as we draw closer to the “end of time”? The Traveler

As long as you know what you are doing and why is my question. So you have taken sides with the Catholics in Ireland conflict? The Traveler

Many ancient Native American societies existed under the tribe. In order to be a member of the tribe one had to either be a "brave" or under the care of a brave. It was the responsibility for the brave to keep those under him under control. The tribe elders only punished a brave. So if the wife or child of a brave committed a crime it was the brave that acted and then answered to the elders and if necessary took the remaining punishment. If a brave could not handle those under him it was up to him to disavow them or step down. If someone disavowed by a brave were not accepted by another brave then they were banished from the tribe. In essence this was a family based patrioricle system - and it worked. Looking at the resulting society - I think it worked much better than ours. I think that system is closer to society of Heaven where G-d the Father is like the brave for his children. It is my understanding that G-d does not give any allowance for sin. It is my impression that many on this forum really would not like to live with G-d in heaven. The Traveler

For a reason I did not try to define criminal behavior. If criminal behavior is defined as stealing a 5 cent item that it is criminal behavior weather it is a 5 cent item from a poor person or 5 million dollar something from a rich person. I put the notion of a 5 cent item to see where people drew the line for justice. If they really believe in justice or if they make excuses. If a person cares less about life than a 5 cent item then you might as well give them what ever they want and forget about justice, liberty and believe that might makes right and if you are strong enough you take what you want. It is my belief that our society has become so vile – not because of violent criminals but because of citizens that demand that criminals be allowed to be violent. Their will always be violent criminals in our society. The reason is because the attitude of so many that would rather have violence than to do what ever it takes to stop it. I am convinced that the more misinformed people support the criminals – making excuses for criminals and denying justice to victims the more rewarding criminal behavior will become. The more innocent members of society must fear and the less the criminals will fear. Not one criticism gave any indication of how to stop criminal behavior. . I will offer the historical example of the Laucayan. They had no jails, no criminals, no weapons for defense or offence, no courts and they had no tolerance for criminal behavior. The softest or considered easiest out for criminal behavior (first or any offence to someone found guilty) was death. Most often the punishment was banishment. But when the Europeans showed up they called them savage and brought their “civilized” brand of justice. There once was a people that lived in peace where the women and children could walk through the streets of any village at any time day or night without fear. Why do people give more consideration to criminals that live without any fear and no consideration at all to the innocent men, women and children that live in fear? I do not understand that excuse. Sorry – If I could choose, I would choose to live where criminals fear – not innocent people. The Traveler

Just wondering who has taken which side in the Irish struggle. Who wears green and who wears orange for St. Pats day? The Traveler

I have become convinced that our current legal system is ineffective and needs changing. Over 30 years ago I talked to a police detective that had a concept that I believe has merit. I have added to his concept and made it my own. In my evolving process of thinking, I present it to this forum for consideration. First responsibility of justice is to protect the innocent. In fact this has become my overriding principle. Our society has lost the perspective of protecting innocent members from those that are guilty of crimes. Often I am astonished at the boldness in which crimes are committed against innocence in our society. I am convinced that this is the case because criminals lack any respect or fear of justice. So here is my concept. There are two parts to the criminal justice system. The first part is the court. This part determines if a party is innocent. Not much needs to change in our current system. Yes, I know some get off and mistakes are made in convictions but we do the best we can. The difference is that the courts and judges only determine innocence and guilt. They do not determine the sentence. That happens outside the court system. Also the courts cannot consider past history or previous violations – only innocence or guilt. The second part of the criminal justice system would be the sentence. This part is very simple. Following the first conviction the criminal is never incarcerated. Instead they are place on probation. Does not matter what they did the sentence is the same - probation. The probation last until either a second offence is committed or until they demonstrate their rehabilitation. Following the second conviction the criminal is always incarcerated. Again this is not for a period of time but until there is demonstration of rehabilitation. Following the third conviction the criminal is executed. Note that the sentence is not considered when consider innocence or guilt. The lawyers, judges, or any member of the court is not permitted to consider or communicate past criminal history. They should not know if the criminal will receive first, second or third level convictions. If a defending lawyer should know then communicating that fact would be grounds to remove them from the bar. There are two things I want you all to consider. The first has to do with what this will save our society. It will eliminate over 80% of the crimes committed in our society. This is because over 80% of the crimes are committed by repeat offenders. It will eliminate 80% of the cost and the need for most of our police, courts and judges; all because most of this is involved with repeat offenders. It will almost eliminate all violent crimes – this is because almost all violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders. It is a fact that criminals become more violent with each conviction. The second consideration is that even if someone shoplifts a 5 cent item they become a criminal subject to this system. You may ask – Why should we convict a person to death because they only took a 5 cent item? The reason is because this is not the first time and they are willing to raise the stakes of their own life in order to take that 5 cent item – There is nothing else that can be done with them. Oh, you say, they could be incarcerated – for life if necessary but not put to death. But they do not value their own life worth more than the 5 cents. There cannot be any value to them for any life. Would you demand others that have a chance at rehabilitation to be forced to live with such a person? All criminals forced to survive incarceration would have to adjust to the worse element in the limited place that such would prevail in survival behavior. In other words criminals would come out of incarceration with a higher propensity toward crime and disregard for life (violence) than before incarceration. We would have a system that created greater danger – not a system that could be said to care about the innocent. You may not like my idea – that is fine. But I only want to know your opposition to my opinion if you think you have a better idea. I think women should not live in fear being raped regardless of where they live. I think parents should not worry if their child will be molested. I do not think anyone should fear walking down any street of any town. Innocent people should not be made to fear criminals. Children should not have to fear strangers. It should be the criminals that should fear – they should fear what will happen in they continue their criminal ways. The Traveler

BTW- Many thanks to all you old timers and some new ones that have put up with the Traveler for all these years. As for BAT - I often wondered about him. I wondered if we were dealing with someone's alter internet ego. I think he lived on the internet to yank people's chain. The Traveler

Sorry I cannot give the title - it would give too much away but it is not called CLAWS. The story is based on a campfire story I started telling my scouts many years ago on our camp outs. They wanted scary camp fire stories so I made up something based on some of my camping experiences as a boy and some ancient Native American Legends. I updated it with some modern evolution concepts to make everything plausible. One of my scouts is now working as a writer in Hollywood and told the story to some associates. The next thing I know, I get a phone call to do some consulting and read the rough draft script. It is intended to be action like Jurassic Park but the opening scene (a dark night in a dense North Western Forest) is quite a shock. I am also doing all I can to keep things PG13. But who knows it may never be produced. It has all been fun. The Traveler

There are no commandments on when you tithe. I once thought that I should write a book titled “Tithing Strategies for the Rich”. My favorite strategy was to figure out your lifetime earnings and then purchase a life insurance policy for 10 percent of that naming the church as the beneficiary. A few years back there were a number of wealthy members that would pay their tithing double every other year to maximize their deductions (they would also pre-pay the interest on their mortgage. In the alternate years they would not pay tithing and such but instead take the standard deductions. The IRS has put a stop to alternate years of deductions. Often members pay tithing in kind. If a particular stock has done well you can donate that stock for the full face value in tax deductions but you do not have to declare the stock as income. So if you made $500,000 and donated a stock that you bought at $5,000 that increased to $50,000 you could pay off all you tithing for the year plus you would not have to declare the stocks increase as income. This would in essence give you a $100,000 tax deduction It is my opinion that if you place your tithing in an account that gains interest that interest was made with the L-rd’s tithing and all of that should be returned to him but this is only my opinion. The last thing you want to do is “rob” G-d. The Traveler

50 miles on a bicycle always worked for me. The Traveler

I could use this same logic to imply that you do not understand science - perhaps you would explain why heavy metals exist on earth in the amounts that they do and how their presents relate to the near circular orbit of earth around the sun. The Traveler

As a scientist I would be as concerned with you testimony of spiritual resolutions to evolution. I believe in evolution and can prove evolution as the basis for all life but I also recognize that there are questions to which evolution has no answers. Yet we scientist accept evolution despite its flaws on faith that at some point we will be able to work out the current un-answered questions. This is because evolution is the best overall answer we have so far. We do not throw out evolution because we can find one thing or one question it does not answer. These same principles apply to almost all aspects of science. Gravity does not explain all aspects of attractions of masses; electro-magnetic principles do not explain all aspects of observable current and magnetic activity; the Big Bang does not explain the amount of mass and energy in the known universe. I can criticize a great deal in science with question of why were some dinosaurs and insects too large to live on an earth with the mass of the one we live on. Why can’t anyone come up with a universal field theory – because one cannot exist? If the existence of doubt of anything is a reason to not accept it as you seem to apply to religion then science could not exist and man’s thinking could never advance. The basis of intelligence is not just to be critical. It is to utilize what you can and not to discount any idea unless you have a better one. If someone wants to disregard gravity, I would only regard their opinion only if they had something better to offer – to me this is the very basis of reason. I will recommend a book for you. It is titled “The Marriage of Sense and Soul” and sub titled “Integrating Science and Religion” by Ken Wilber. I am a scientist and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Ken is not a scientist or LDS (he is Buddhist and a philosopher). One point he makes is that one must apply the principles that can be used to any endeavor of discovery. For example, one cannot use a volt meter to measure gravity. Not all things can be measured with “scientific tools”. I do not believe that love can be scientifically measured and quantified. It does not mean that love has no merit – only that such an attempt to “experience” love by scientific method may not be the best possible method. The Traveler

I did not post this to apply to a general group. When Jesus met for Passover with his Apostles he mentioned that someone among them would deny him. In light of many things I have often wondered why John did not whisper to Peter, "I bet it is Judas. He has really been acting strange lately." But it is interesting to me that those that were really in "the Way" turned and asked, "L-rd is it I?"I am not sure that there is much that Jesus taught that we should wonder what poor sap (or group) he was talking about. It is meant to understand ourselves. The asking, "L-rd, is it I?" or "does Jesus know me?" or "am I the example of what and how he authorizes now and in times passed?" Most likely these are some of the many indication one finds along "the Way". There must be a difference between thinking one is right, known or authorized and being authorized; otherwise there would not be such a "variety". (BTW I was once lost in a wilderness because I thought I had found one of the landmarks on my map and having found one thinking it was enough) But it does not matter who is pretending what - That is what the judgment is for. There is no excuse in others; only that to which we have sought and obtained of G-d rather than having been "beguiled" by the cunning one that pretends to be G-d or like G-d. The Traveler

Thank you for your opinion. I think you and I have a different view of what is meant by "the Way". I think you have attached something from our culture and language to some thing quite different in ancient times. Judas was found - no one is lost to G-d - his call is to all. In the parable of the sewer Jesus taught that the seed of G-d is given to all but those that have not cleared away their rocks and weeds and kept their soil soft will not have place for the seed to grow. Come now, a just G-d does not honor one that does not seek over one that does. Did Jesus not command his disciples to seek, ask and knock? If you have found Jesus should you not believe what he said? There are some languages (for example German) that translate this scripture to say "authorize" rather than "knew". It is hard for me to understand that G-d would not “know” his creations as we would define “know” in English. However, this scripture highlights those that are doing things in the “Name” of Jesus Christ. They would not use that name unless they believed in it. It makes much more sense to understand that Jesus never authorized them but that they authorized themselves. With this understanding I think we get a better view into the way that Jesus “authorized” and why few find it even though many (as per the example Jesus gave) think they have found it. The Traveler

One of the effects of alcohol is to limit or dull the user’s understanding of it detrimental effects. If I am ever in combat I would not even consider trusting my flank to someone with this attitude. If I was to take an airline flight I would walk away if the pilot felt he could handle the plane with a drink or two. Nor would I consider being under the knife of a surgeon with a drink under their belt. I have yet to experience someone drinking that resulted in them being smarter or making better decisions. In general the reason G-d has commanded abstinence from alcohol it to avoid the pitfalls of those that profit from providing alcohol and to help those that have faith in G-d in becoming a free person without entrapping dependencies. The Traveler

My first experience on an internet forum was a Dr. Laura forum that I was recommended to try. The trashing of Mormons got so bad that Dr. Laura fired her moderator and canceled the forum from her web site. I was attempting to write a novel and that forum was recommended to sharpen my writing skills - which are still horrible. Though I may not ever get something published I have, among other things influenced a screenplay that may show up next year – if it does it will do for camping what Jaws did for beach vacations - we’ll see. During the early years there were harsh things being said non-stop to us LDS. I did not know that there were types like Prison Chaplin. He has been a most pleasant surprise. The interesting thing about those times was that on a weekly basis someone decided to be baptized stating that the Mormons were the only ones on the internet that acted like Christians. Snow: I had no idea that those were hard times for you. I thought I was going through bad times and ended up starting a new business; though for sure I would be declaring bankruptcy. I think there were months I did not sleep. Now it seems that things are out of control the other way. Just bought a new business (last week) and I am trying to finish another contract and finalize another proposal that I cannot possibly complete. All this time I have thought of many on the forum and what has become of them. Someday, Snow, if you are in SLC, Phoenix or Detroit I will have to make time to have dinner with you. The wife and I will be in LA in April to see Wicked (our anniversary). We have been apart a lot the last year and she wants a quiet weekend for just us. Take care Snow. The Traveler

If it were my choice to make I would choose to end my mortal probation and rest. In the mean time I will stay and endure as long as it suits my master. The Traveler

I prefer to be identified as a disciple – one disciplined in the ways of the Master, Jesus Christ. What someone prefers to call me is something that identifies them more than it does me. The Traveler

Anyone that can testify of Jesus Christ (see Revelation 19:10) Just a note here - many think that they can but do not. The Traveler

You and I have been around this lone and dreary forum a long time - looking at our date of beginning here you and I could be considered "Sons of the Morning". The Traveler

Please, if you do not mind, I have never been able to understand statements like this. Can you clarify for me if you (and your children) are ex nihilo creations or are you and your children not human? I ask this because I have studied human birth and how the male sperm furtilizes a female egg and a baby is created as a single cell then continues to grow from something that the eye cannot see into something that we all are. I believe all life that we can identify, comes through this method of beginning from a single cell. Does this mean that there is no life as we know it that was created by G-d in the manner you understand? What evidence do you have of any ex nihilo creation. Where in scripture do we learn that G-d has changed the manner in which he creates life or that his power is not needed in the same manner for life now from that which first was? Who are you and your children? Where and when were you created ex nihilo? I have great difficulity understanding why you believe such a thing about your self and your children? How is G-d your father in heaven? The Traveler

The turn off for me is someone that claims to be an example of G-d only in what they say (doctrine) and not in what they do (deeds or works). To claim to have truth from G-d - even in part has more to do with responsibility towards others in love than it is a gift of grace from G-d. Though the gift of G-d is to all mankind not all mankind accepts the responsibility of the gift. The Traveler

Very interesting point. The scriptures never speak of a religion. This is a notion created by man. The scripture do speak of a “path” or “way”. You and I have discussed this in part before. A path or way is not defined by doctrine. It is this point that I personally have the greatest difficulty with religion and those that want to define the path or way by doctrine so they can create religion. Doctrine can help a person find the way but it is not the way. The way can only include doctrines that are believed enough for the “traveler” to “keep”. Other important elements in helping a traveler find the way is: ordinances, covenants, priesthood (one that is authorized or given power similar to power of attorney to present themselves as the proxy of G-d) and order (structure or organization). It is my understanding that the way does not find you but that you must seek, ask and knock in effort to find the way. So desperate must a person be for the way that they must be willing to give and sacrifice all that they have in order to find the way. It is my understanding that “few” will find the way. I am quite certain that those that do not seek the way will find it. It appears to me that many that accepted Jesus and welcomed him into Jerusalem with branches of palms never found the “way”. Likewise – it appears to me that many in our day that say they have accepted Jesus have not found the way. The Traveler

You are not the first to ever face this dilemma. In the days when Jesus walked the earth there was a rich young man that asked Jesus how to obtain eternal life. Jesus told him to keep the commandments. The young man answered that he was keeping the commandments. Jesus then told the man to sell all that he had and to come follow him. The man decided not to do it because he had many possessions and he loved his money more than he love the L-rd. Though your situation is not really similar you are one of the first that I have encountered that though they have little – that little is loved more than the L-rd and thought that a roof over your head is believed to be more valuable than keeping the commandments and having eternal life. Perhaps should we ever meet again you can let me know how your choice profited you. The Traveler

Perhaps we are not interpreting and understanding what the scriptures tell us. There is great symbolism in "living waters" and the "bread of life". Alma tells us that if we plant the "seed" and take care of it that it will grow and become the "tree of life". (this reference is often understood as a reference to testimony; but perhaps there is more?) There is a variety of date palms that grow in the Middle East that produces "white" fruit that is considered one of the 3 great gifts of G-d to the Arabic peoples. The reason this tree is called the tree of life is because the ripened white dates will not spoil over long periods of desert heat and will sustain life while traveling the desert. This same tree is referenced in the Book of Mormon in the Book of 1Nephi – which BTW was not known in western society at the time of Joseph Smith. It is likely that there are nourishments required of immortal beings and it is likely that attaching literal understanding to such things will not produce what G-d is trying to teach us. The Traveler