Traveler

According to the Traveler - You will see Jesus face to face when it will no longer make a difference in who you are or how you live. You get to heaven by learning to enjoy the things of heaven. It takes a willingness to live the commandments by covenant as a disciple and that is how he becomes your master and L-rd and you his student. I would point out that the term disciple implies discipline - discipline implies sacrifice and sacrifice implies giving up pride and the vanity of self The Traveler

How does one decide who they will marry? Is this done by checking requirements off a list or by “feeling’? Do we decide to keep our children or dispose of them by applying logical principles of when we would ask most anyone else to leave our home or is it more because of how we “feel” about them. Do we take care of our aging parents because it fulfills logic or because of how we “feel”? If because we are intelligent do we eat according to what we need or what tastes “good” to us. I would submit that it is as important to recognize beneficial feelings from destructive impulses and it is to deduce logical conclusions from insane notions (realizing that some people are incapable of either). Sometimes I am disappointed with the notion of religion. Religion is based too much (in my thinking) on doctrine and not enough on enlightened behavior. If someone defines religion based on doctrine then they ought to be rhetorical and logical. If however, religion is defined as enlightenment above logic then the disciple must manifest that higher enlightened behavior. Failure to master higher enlightened behavior can only be because either the enlightenment is not believed or it is flawed. This also means that if one does not engage enlightenment once found “true religion” then they either deceive themselves what is required to “believe” or their religion is flawed. Finding the correct religion is not just how to judge others in their faith as it is so much to view ourselves and our personal relationship with the divine. The Traveler

Thank you all for your input - I find this discussion most interesting. The topic appears to be evolving and that is a good thing but I would like to establish one very important notion before moving on. The Jesus Christ of the New Testament is both the creator and the created. The Traveler

A few weeks ago my wife and I visited our daughters home to help celebrate a grandson’s 5th birthday. Our son-in-law is attending law school while living in an intellectual community. One of the young 5 year olds attending the party is attending a progressive pre-school where he is learning to read. His parents encourage him demonstrating his superior abilities compared to other children. As my grandson opened a present he looked at the Dr. Seuss book and set it aside to open another gift. The advanced student picked up the book and started to read aloud the title. Slowly he sounded out “H-o-r-t-o-n” then he continued “h-a-s a”. Well I thought, the kid is good but not without flaw. Then he completed his task slowly saying “Ho” I was going to say something to the parents but decided the better of it. The Traveler

Often the choice of words can communicate rather bazaar concepts. I prefer to use the term divinely appointed creation of life in partnership with G-d. Marriage is instituted, appointed by and commanded by G-d. The term “sex” can include many things other than the sacred nature of creation. We do have some details provided in scripture about the creation of the Christ child. Mary was involved with G-d to create the Christ child’s flesh and bones body.Mary was the Mother of the Christ child.G-d was the Father of the Christ child.The flesh of Christ did not exist prior to the creation which was completed with the birth of the Christ child. The Word became the son of man, also known as Jesus with the creation of the flesh of the Christ child. Prior to the birth of Jesus the Word was the means of creation and thus was the creator. With the creation and birth of Jesus and the Word becoming flesh and Jesus became the created. Thus Jesus is both the creator and the created. It is interesting that Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body of flesh and bones. This incorruptible body is still apart of the soul of Jesus in heaven to be forever more. In other words G-d currently has a resurrected everlasting body of flesh and bones. The Traveler

Just so I understand what you are saying: You claim that the scriptures do not support - in any way; that the flesh body of Jesus was created and therefore existed before the world or anything else was? I know it is often difficult to speak of such things to a Trinitarian but again in scriptures that should be acceptable to all Christians in Luke 24:39 the scriptures testify that the body (which could not be found in verse 3) was manifested unto the 11 (except Judas) as well as others; was a body of flesh and bones that was created. I also thank you for pointing out that the Word “became flesh” - so that we know from that point on, that the Word (which is eternal) "became" forever more, a being of flesh. Or are you going to tell me; that which defines and is G-d is not everlasting? I do believe the scriptures testify that the Jesus (including his body of flesh and bones) did ascend to that eternal place where all things continue forever known as heaven. The Traveler

One of the interesting discussions between those of the restored theology of the LDS and the traditional Trinitarian Christian theology concerns a distinction between mankind and the mediator G-d for man, Jesus the Christ. This distinction is brought to bear in the notion that Jesus is the creator and mankind is the created – implying that there can never be logical overlap or similarity between Jesus and mankind. This is because of the restored LDS notion that G-d’s intended destiny of man is that man become exalted as G-d and behave in all things according to G-d’s divine example. The scripture used by the traditional Trinitarian Christian is from the Gospel of John chapter one. In verses 1 and 2 it is argued that the Word has always been and is the creator of all things. So far so good. Note verse 3 that reads as follows: “All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.” The reason that verse 3 in important to this discussion is because of the particular word “made”. We learn by this scripture that the notion and expressions of “made” and “creation” are used inner changeably throughout the scriptures. When it is said that something was made it means the same thing as that thing being created. Now let us look at verse 14: “And the Word was MADE flesh, and dwelt among, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” I have made special emphasis in this verse of the word “made”. This is to show that Jesus was created in the flesh. The Gospel of Luke goes into rather great detail to demonstrate that the creation of Jesus in the womb of his mother Mary is not unlike the creation of all mankind that likewise are a creation of the flesh. I realize that understanding Jesus as he was created as a physical tabernacle (or temple) is not a full disclosure of all his eternal attributes. I only point out from scripture, acceptable to all Christians, that Jesus was created in the flesh. All things are possible to G-d. It is not impossible that a creation of G-d be both a creator and the created. The Traveler

My friends, there are two attitudes that one can take to go through life. One is that attitude that everyone should get what they deserve. The other is the attitude that everyone should be treated with love and respect; especially when they do not deserve it. There is not method (even in heaven) to control or get someone else to behave with love and kindness. I would like to use myself as the example but I know better. If my wife had held me to account for my mistakes I would not be married to her – not that my mistakes have broken covenants. Please understand that relationships must be built on love and that no lasting worthwhile relationship can be built on pity parties or with blame games. Even with children I have learned that when they are not getting along the worse course of action is to try to determine who is at fault and attach blame to the guilty party that started it all. I have learned a great deal from my sweet wife. For years I refused to ever say I was sorry about anything. No matter what if anyone was to express being sorry I left that to her. Now the first words out of my mouth whenever there is any disagreement with my wife is that I am sorry – and I mean it. Even when my wife thinks it is her fault, I tell her that it is her turn to be at fault and my turn to return her many years of pure kindness to me. It may sound silly but her faults are so insignificant. Ya – I do not deserve her and she deserve much better than me. Do you see what I just said? That knowledge is the great secret to having a wonderful fulfilling relationship. There are times to end a relationship. It is never to protect yourself or what you want or desire but to protect others; your children, your spouse and your extended family. Yes – if you spouse is committing adultery and they are unable to abide by their sacred covenants then the marriage must end for their protection from the great damage they are doing to them self and the children. But if you are going to play a blame game and in anger seek revenge you will only destroy yourself in the effort. And now I must apologize. I am sorry that I cannot express love and kindness better. Love and Kindness are difficult for me and takes a great deal of effort and most of the time I fall short. It is more natural for me to tell people they are stupid or crazy. But we should ask ourselves – “What would Jesus do?” What would he do with someone caught committing adultery? Again I apologize – I need to stay away from the “Advice” part of the forum. The Traveler

I will add a couple of thoughts. One: since mankind currently assists G-d through marriage in his most glorious creation it would make sense that many accepted by covenant callings to help with creation in the pre-existence. But just like some are more interested in personal pleasure than assisting by covenant in creation here most likely many sought their own will there as well. An interesting thought about dinosaurs and other creatures of that era. They were too large for present gravity and could not exist or survive the current forces on earth. The Traveler

Jesus said to be perfect - I believe this is Matt 5:48. I would say this. Anyone that knows or has received the will of G-d concerning their life and what they should do and they deliberately and knowing do otherwise - deceive themselves if they think they will living in eternity with G-d. The Traveler

Catholics believe that nuns are maried to Christ but I know of no official LDS doctrine that he was even married. There is speculation but if someone is going to bash you based on speculation - they are not Christian. Not even close. I would not value any such opinion. The Traveler

I read some of your post and a few responses. I feel very bad about what is happening. I am indeed sorry – however, you have asked for advice and there are some things I think ought to be said. I am not trying to be fair. Your husband is not here and there is no way to say anything to him at this point, but I am not sure that would matter. From what you have posted I am assuming that you are looking forward to a divorce from your husband. I hope that is what you want above all else because without question that is what will happen. You are headed towards a home without a husband for you or a father for your children. Even if you had an ideal husband what you are doing to your marriage will bring about divorce. You can think it is all your husband’s fault – he is making horrible mistakes but I cannot say anything to him and you cannot change him. My point here is that even though he is not helping the marriage it is important to realize that you aren’t either. If you take your current methods with you to another marriage it will fail as well. If you treat your children in their mistakes as you have treated your husband you will fail in that relationship as well. If your current marriage (or any future marriage) is to survive you are going to have to make some major changes in your life. To be honest I am surprised that you are married. Perhaps it is because you changed your attitudes since your dating. Please understand that I am not excusing your husband. Cheating on a marriage covenant is in my mind the essence of one of the worse scum possible in this world. The only advice that I can offer is to swallow your pride and convince your husband that letting you go was the greatest mistake of his life. Right now the marriage is breaking on his terms. You take control. You show him you are the most wonderful wife and mother that ever lived. That will show him his mistake long before convincing him that you are his worse night mere. Even if your marriage ends in divorce still convince him you were the women of his best dreams – not his worse. The Traveler.

I believe that G-d will find a way to "qualify" all those that desire to live with him in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe this is the good news of Christ. But since Celestial society and G-d are centered in service I think many will turn away and look to the eternities to be served and not to serve. The Traveler

Interesting you feel the way you do. It appears to me that in the economy of G-d that he loves repetition. In fact the Bible teaches that something is not of G-d unless it is repeated. I also find it interesting that you have chosen the arguments of the Pharisees that taught the people that Jesus was not a prophet because he contradicted and subverted the written scriptures that were anciently considered the word of G-d. In case you forgot they “proved their case in a court of law” to have Jesus crucified. It would appear that Ecclesiastes 1:9-11 is a very accurate prophesy. The Traveler

If you have interested Jewish friends I would tell them how following the murder of the Prophet Joseph Smith the saints fled into the wilderness where 1 of ever 5 died. Our enemies thought we all would perish but many survived and the great settlement of the western wilderness took place in one of histories greatest epoch of human migration. Despite severe hardships missionaries were sent though out the world and thousands came from all over the world to Utah to establish the Mormon empire. The Mormons pressed for state hood but were denied as their territory of Deseret was divided and given to other settlers. Finely when the Mormons were to be given state hood the enemies of Mormonism in a last effort to antagonize the settlers forced a change in the name of the new state from Deseret to Utah. No power on earth could bring about the prophesies of G-d more distinctly and dramatically. For the name Utah in the language of the native Ute peoples literally means “The Top of the Mountains”. Quoting now from the prophesy of Isaiah verses 2 and 3. “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the L-rd’s house shall be established in {the top of the mountains}, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he shall teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem.” The Traveler

The Book of Mormon teaches that there is opposition in all things. Yes, my friend, there are those that will stand in the sun at noon day and declare it night. Someone will counter any concept regardless of its merit. I have never met a Creationist scientist that was not of the caliber of the so called “Hollow Earth” or “Flat Earth” scientist. Science does not have a pre-determined agenda. But then I do not believe that even in religion that we should take anything for granted. I believe it was Paul that said, “Prove all things and hold fast to that which is true.” The Traveler

I am a student of ancient text. As one becomes familiar with the many text available from Homer (the Greek) to Beowulf (England) to the Book of Breathings among the Egyptians, to the epoch of Baal among the Babylonians to name a few; a sub plot that runs through all the epochs is that of one of the major characters has an obsession to “please” a pagan g-d as a means to obtain entry into heaven. Often it was a primary reason that temples were built (and maintained) to a specific deity. Being favored of a deity (being a recipient of their grace) was considered the more sure way to heaven. This is in contrast to I Cor chapter 13 that recommends a “more excellent way through the mastering of divine love. Perhaps I should highlight the epoch of Baal as a contrast as to why this particular deity was such a scourge to ancient Israel. Then we could ask – are there any parallels in our modern religious community? Remember the question "Why halt you between two opinions?" The Traveler

If we are saved by grace alone there is no reason to argue or make a point concerning salvation. If such is true then not only is it impossible for man to contribute to salvation he cannot detract or diminish it either. Since we have nothing to contribute and nothing we do matters why make a point of it? If it is really by grace only why do scriptures encourage us to wander into pointless worship, beliefs or behavior? The Traveler

Okay you are confusing me. You stated that Jesus was the only son of G-d. I gave you a scripture that contradicts your interpretation and asked for your reconciliation. Also I missed the scripture that says that Jesus was not created. Let me get this straight you believe that man was created – so then Jesus was never a man or the son of man? In fact I do not think you have even ever read the scriptures. I do not find any scripture that says Adam was created as you stated above. All the scriptures refer to the creation of man not Adam. now your beginning quote: It is interesting to read your responses. The scriptures also state that Mary was the mother of our L-rd. I am sure you do not understand the ancient question from the Nestorian Christians. Which is: If Jesus was both G-d and man why do the scriptures say Mary was the mother of our L-rd. Be careful with this one, you just might adopt a answer that the early Trinitarian Christians established as hearsay. You also stated that according to the Bible Jesus was the one and only son of G-d - so I gave you a scripture that calls Adam the son of G-d. Do you understand the question as it applies to your question? The Traveler

I think I would word it a little differently - I would say that he believes we are worth his sacrifice of his life. The question remains - is he worth our sacrifice of our life? The Traveler

My father taught me to never believe what a persons says until you know what they do. I have also learned that it is very rare for a person to make a commitment to what they will do and then do it. I will add my lip service thanks to you verbal commitment. If you prove worthy of your commitment I hope you will remember me as a friend willing to stand with you in any good effort. The Traveler

The “name” or believing on a name has specific reference to covenant. In a marriage covenant a woman will take upon her the name of her husband and they have power to act for one another. Believing on the name of Christ is to covenant to become a saint in Christ and act in his behalf. One of the 10 commandments is to not use G-d’s name in vein – which means to make claim to believe on his name but not to act accordingly. If someone is having difficulty living up to their covenants it would be better for them to not make claim to Christ rather than heap upon themselves condemnation. At the same time it is important to progress toward Christ line upon line upon line – precept upon precept upon precept. Jesus made it very clear that those that use his name improperly will not be blessed when he indicated that some that did works in his name would be told that they were not know of Christ and to “depart”. It is my belief that as long as one seeks to follow Christ and treat others as they believe Christ would treat them that they are worthy of the name of Christ. It is also my belief that if you have to tell others that you believe in Christ because it is difficult for them to determine that from your behavior that you might be better off not making public such a claim. The Traveler

Your question reminds me of Alice in Wonderland where Alice comes to a fork in the road and asks a cat which path she should take. The cat asks, “Where are you going?” To which Alice responds, “I do not know”. To which the cat says, “Then it does not matter which path you take.” I have a feeling that at some day to come when G-d would invite all to come and live with him that many will look into his Kingdom and desire to be somewhere else. Many find that living among saints to be rather boring and lacking personal aggrandizements and fulfillments. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what you and your friends are doing, in contrast to the LDS, to better perpare for the return of Christ. The Traveler

You might like to reference one of the thousands of ancient scripture text. Completing a literal reference to G-d is unique to our modern era. The Traveler

The internet is open to all throughout the world. It is a personal commitment that I have made concerning the internet to keep such things sacred. The Traveler