Traveler

Profoundly spiritual. Let us not trun thinking him unworthy. Not only is he worthy - he is the only one worthy. The Traveler

I am very pleased to see this side of you. Thank youThe Traveler

It is my general impression that few of our culture understand spiritual things. Spiritual experiences are deemed out of the ordinary, unusual, fantastic and only associated with religion, weird or the ultra normal. I am not posting this for doctrine, nor am I attempting to convert anyone to an ideology. I am one posting for awaking of someone that may wish to do so. It has been discovered that most of the light of our universe is outside the human sensory capability. Consider another possibility – that much of what lies behind the machinery of our universe is undetected by our five senses. The ghost in the machine seems to remain man’s continual unsolved mystery. Even in religious circles where we are taught from infancy that we all have a ghost in our physical machinery seem to be forever out of contact and lost to any regular spiritual connections. So it is that I offer an exercise in spiritual observations and listening. There is no magic, no believe and you can see, no group to join and no school in which to enroll or teacher to give grade. All that is required is you. Therefore, I offer a simple first exercise but I must explain that most of us are dominated and overcome by the inputs to our 5 physical sensors that we cannot connect with our very quiet spiritual sense. So the first task is to find a time and a place to minimize the physical interruptions. A quiet place that is boring. No distractions – no TV, no phone, no computer, no music, no family or friends asking questions. To begin a spiritual quest finding a quiet place is the most difficult. Step 2. Unencumber yourself with what occupies you. Just for one hour, forget about time, work, school, family, friends, religion, obligations, hopes, dreams and devote one hour to a quiet experiment. An experiment in spiritual awakening. Finely – now that you are alone take a deep breath and make yourself comfortable. If it helps close your eyes and now quietly become aware of yourself. The first awareness that I would suggest is to become aware of your thoughts. Let your thoughts dance through your conscientiousness but as they pass into your awareness – study them. I suggest you make an attempt to distinguish which thought are your own that you manufacture from within yourself and which thoughts seem to be forced into you from some unknown outside place. See if you can figure out why you have the thoughts you do. Do you like your thoughts? What seems to motivate your thoughts? Something within or something without. Do you think your thoughts are valuable? If so to who? To you alone or to others? You will be looking with spiritual eyes into a spiritual mirror seeing your spiritual self. I hope you like what you see. If you like you may post of your experience or if you like send me a private message. Enjoy. When you finish I will tell you some very interesting things that you experienced. I will not tell you anything about you but we will be able to realize some interesting things about how your spiritual awareness finds expression (if you wish). The Traveler

To be honest I have not been upset then the priesthood was given to men I knew to be complete idiots and morons – why would I be upset if an intelligent, loving and kind lady was given the priesthood. To be honest, it is not my priesthood so I do not get to determine such things and I have great respect for the one that provides us with that priesthood.The Traveler

May I respond? Some years ago I was an adult leader involved in taking about 300 boy scouts on a wilderness expedition day hike. When we returned I was notified the next day by the rangers that during our hike two candy rappers were left. I was angry beyond measure. I gathered all the scouts together and explained that we all owed the rangers an apology. We dumped or junk in the homes of someone else and we call them “wild”. I said that the reason that we all owe an apology is because we all let someone we know do such a thing. Some one may think they are innocent because that did not litter but at the same time they knew who did or they saw the litter and did nothing.Dumping a candy wrapper is not the right thing to do. It is not kind and it is not an expression of love. But at the same time I want you to know that I have done much worse – so, even though I acknowledge that littering is wrong I will not through the first stone, or for that matter any stones. But I will encourage you not to do it any more and if you see a candy rapper where it should not be – please pick it up and dispose of it properly. Is it possible – can we – will we – always encourage others and offer what we do as an example of what is right and when we do something wrong and stupid accept it when others are disappointed in our errors without hating them for it. And can we encourage other to do better without getting upset and angry? The Traveler

Interesting - but I wonder???? When someone that is not LDS is about telling LDS what it is that we believe; what is to be gained in explaining to them what it is that we believe. I think part of the problem is that some people think men and women are equal. In math (my expertise) equal means exactly that = the same, no difference, able to substitute one for the other without changing the truthfulness or value or the outcome. Thus, many that think men and women are equal cannot understand why women do not hold the priesthood. And since they see the priesthood as a symbol of power they feel that everyone that is equal should share the same of it. Now my friend Snow, I am quite sure you understand that men and women are different and therefore not the same or equal. You also understand that when a man and a woman marry that their marriage is greater than ether or both of them and that they work as partners – together – without one having authority over the other. And I am sure that you know as I do that priesthood is not authority of one person over another – especially for a husband and wife. But it would appear that as much as most of us LDS understand this principle that most non-LDS do not understand this and often resent any LDS that would attempt to set them right. The Traveler

I believe that "gift" and "talent" are spiritual representations and expressions of the same and similar things. They are abilities that are spiritually expressed. I believe it is a mistake to attempt to tie such things to physical understandings - you will only go in circles and confuse yourself or end up on some tangent that will lead you away from spiritual insights and awareness’s. The Traveler

Good for you PC. If it was not for you and other good men of faith, I would still be thinking some of this nonsense myself. The Traveler

Interesting problem you have ChicagoGuy. Here is your problem as I see it. Suppose that we were to take a number of highlight films of two professional football teams. One is the Super Bowl champion the other the very last place team. And we edit those films so that all you saw were the highlight we wanted you to see. I could, through those highlights’ make the champion appear to be the worse team ever –never able to do anything right and I could make the last place team appear to never do any thing wrong. Talking to a Pharisee, 2000 years ago and the “Son of Man” would convincingly become a blasphemous fraud worthy of crucifixion. Let me put this another way – you say you want to believe – Really? If you want to learn Algebra and believe in Algebra – Why would you even consider taking Algebra from someone that had flunked ever math course they ever took? Why seek to learn Algebra from a horrible failure that cannot even add simple integers? If you want to learn Algebra – why not learn from a master of Algebra that is expert at doing Algebra. Dah! You learn of LDS from a nut job that cannot even live LDS principles? I will say this in defense of the Prophet Joseph Smith: 1. For all the criticism by so called experts concerning Joseph’s rendition of the Book of Abraham I have never read of an expert that says that the form, content and presentation of the Book of Abraham is completely out of context so far as the ancient Egyptian mathematicians of Abraham’s day (2200 BC). Please present to me a form and content of any modern book that better represents the Pythagorean concepts passed down from the time of Abraham than is in Abraham chapter 3. It is interesting because this ancient cult was not even known until the end of the 20th century. 2. That the same Joseph Smith also gave us section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants that covers much of the same concepts in the Newtonian philosophy prevalent in his day. 3. Now consider verses 1-3 of Chapter 2 of The First Book of Nephi in the Book of Mormon that is written in an ancient Egyptian literary form now known to have existed around 600 BC. And then we told right there that the person writing the First Book of Nephi was using what he had learned from Egypt. You can stand in the light of noon day if you like and pronounce that you believe it to be the dark of night. But if you do you will only convince anyone that would look for themselves that you must not have an elevator that comes close to reaching the top. If you look hard enough you can find published nut jobs that claim that the earth is hollow with a sun in the middle and that dinosaurs are still alive in the center earth – and they will claim that the world’s best scientist and experts agree with them. The Traveler

In general would you say (from your experience at the prison) that Christian organizations record in dealing with freeing hard core addicts (considering long term results and repeat offences):1. Much better (and obviously demonstrateable) than non-Christian (sectarian) organizations 2. About the same as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations 3. Not as well as non-Christian (sectarian) organizations Is there a common denominator among "freed" addicts? The Traveler

From time to time I have posted that I believe very few in our modern society understand the difference between the physical world and the spheres of spiritual existence and awareness. The chains of addictions are powerful reminders of this misunderstanding. I will not pretend to be an expert with strategies to over come addictions. I am not sure they exist in the form – do this and you will be cured. With all our wisdom and science we really do not have a very good record dealing with addictions. For the most part religion has not been any more successful than our science. I am not much for the Hollywood expressions of dark things; I think that representations of someone being possessed by a “dark” spirit are far from reality. I would submit that there is no better way to observe the advanced influences of an unclean spirit than the expressions of a true addict. I would also submit that impressions that one can be shielded from unclean spirits by their faith in G-d or their religious ideology is a fable that gives many religious men and women false hope and devastating vulnerability. The addiction of porn is especially devastating because few women will stand by their man giving needed support. For the most part, because we know it is wrong we do not know how to say something is wrong and then deal with it. It seems that there is an attitude that we ether admit that it is not that bad or we excommunicate everything to do with it. I am very grateful for that light that comes from the LDS view of things: First: Never accept anything that is wrong or unclean. 2. Love and support everyone – especially the fallen – for they need love and support more than anyone. They are indeed the one for who we should leave the 99. 3. Never accept the wrong that anyone does – but always play up and encourage the positive and the good. 4. Realize that neither the grace of G-d or individual personal efforts will by themselves save anyone and deliver them from the chains of Hell. And yes, addictions are so much like the chains of Hell; I do not believe that there are any differences worth betting a soul on. 5. Realize that addictions are only overcome as LDS doctrine teaches – you are saved by the grace of G-d AFTER all you can do. The operative word here is “AFTER”. 6. There is no silver bullet, no blessing, no quick and easy cure no program with 12 steps and you are done. Often Jesus would bless people and cure them of their ills but on a few exceptional occasions he would indicate that for some – “Their faith had made them whole”. One last point – Any woman that will help a man through the overcoming of the addictions of porn is without doubt a Saint of G-d if there ever was one. And G-d know such a lady stand in greatness to any priesthood holder and does as much or more for the goodness of society and family – I honor and bow to such a lady as my superior. My opinion The Traveler

Just wondering about your statement about the Book of Abraham: Can you give me an example of any modern text that better demonstrates the ancient type and format used by the mathematicians of ancient Egypt - in the proper context of 2200 BC – the time in which Abraham was in Egypt? What modern text that relates to the historical aspects of Abraham are you comparing the BofA to – in order to conclude it is not historic?The Traveler

Hi Traveler, Thanks for re-writing that paragraph (or writing a new one if that's what you did.) This one I can understand. I'm sure this is true. If one feels joyful, especially within a circle of love and compassion, there aren't many human emotions that we respond to better than that one. I disagree one has to have a "spiritual awareness." I know people who are atheists who feel just as joyful, especially in a circle of love and compassion. And boy can they cut up a rug! I think this is true also, up to a point. Every single person is different, and many people struggle with this to different degrees. It is just too simplistic to say that all "those" experience this in the same amount. There are literally a million things that could happen to a person to do that, and you simply don't have the expertise to make that diagnosis. For example, a very spiritual person could be suffering from a mental illiness that prevents him from feelings these things. If it's serious, none of the prayers in the world are going to help that person until he gets the correct medication(s). Once he does, and it's successful, all of the spiritual joy, love and compassion can return. But you, knowing nothing about the person, would have made an erroneous judgment that you had no right to make. I noticed you do this in a lot of your posts, and I guess I wonder why? Why do you need to write posts that, while seemingly loving and compassionate, are actually oftentimes simplistic and judgmental about thousands of people you don't even know. I know you're heart is in the right place, but I don't think you realize that you do this. Exactly! To thine own self be true! Not to "Traveler" be true. And Traveler has no idea what that truth is, but often writes as if he does. Why does it have to be of Christ? Why can't it just be an attitude of joy? Do you think if I lined up 10 joyful people in front of you, you could tell me which ones were Christians and which ones weren't? Elphaba One of the great mistakes in truth is not realizing that which is physical and that which is spiritual. I will try to give an example. Are you aware of your own thoughts as opposed to those that originate from outside yourself? How does one determine those thoughts that in reality belong to "self" and those that are imposed? I submit that you can investigate several and many brains, you can run scientific test after test and you will never be able to tell which thoughts were imposed on a person and what thoughts came from self awareness from looking inward. Many that devote themselves to the reality of only the five senses cannot look inward or have self awareness for it cannot come through the five senses. Likewise those that attempt to use inward self awareness to define the physical reality of things are just as lost and unable to connect to anything of truth in that rheum. The last point is that anyone can be happy in the middle of happiness - this is done because many are slaves to outside influences. Only a person that is inwardly connected to joy is free from the outside influences that are not joyful. Therefore they become "mirrors" of what ever is imposed upon them - they are not free or really joyful and what ever it is that they are - it is a fleeting moment that will change as does the weather and they are a product of the seasons in which they live. It is not up to me to decide what a person’s thoughts are but trust me on this one – it is not all that hard to determine if their thoughts are joyful and if they are indeed the thoughts of their heart or thoughts from an ever changing environment. The Traveler

I am going to post some things here - I hope I do not tick somebody off. 1. If a person has really had an answer to prayer they do not need (nor is it helpful) to seek advice or conformation from other sources. 2. A suggestion or answer from G-d is the same as a commandment. G-d will also provide the way to accomplish what he commands - follow his advice and not the advice of the world. 3. There is some latitude of agency and preparation in such matters as marriage. No one should ask for anything that they do not intend to follow through on. 4. Marriage is a covenant that involves at least two people and the L-rd. If G-d tells you something involving such a covenant he will tell everyone else involved in that covenant. If only one is getting the command from G-d something is very wrong and G-d's law of witnesses has been violated. 5. The propose of courtship - what ever the means be it internet, arranged by parents or dating or what ever - there are only one of two possible results. One: you get married. Two: you break up. There are no 3rd options for those that covenant with G-d. Whatever it takes to make the decision to marry or break up it is the responsibility of the individual to figure that out. Once G-d joins a marriage it is not up to any man or woman to end it- only G-d. Therefore I suggest that what ever method you employ to select your eternal partner you figure it out and get it done. And if you screw it up do not blame anyone else. I understand that anyone can "repent" of anything and be forgiven but blaming someone else is not part of repentance. my thoughts The Traveler BTW: I have been married to the woman of my dreams for over 34 years and because I am the lesser one in the marriage it took me most of that time to realize that I made the best possible choice ever. I went through my courtship very much a fool but I was serious about one thing and that was my covenant with G-d and that and my extraordinary wife was my salvation in marriage.

Is that what all the Prozac is about? Perhaps not all but likely some. It is not enough to have an emperical (logical) connection to truth - one must have an inner (spiritual) connection for there to be joy. (man is that he might have joy - is not so much logical as it is a spiritual declaration). Many measure the concept that Satan would have others be miserable like unto himself in emperical (logical) terms. But this is also a spiritual declaration that has to do with inner awareness or I should say to shut down inner awareness. I believe Alaskagain is correct in their understanding of happiness verses unhappiness. The Traveler

Thanks for the responses: One of the characteristics of spirituality is an inner awareness. I am suggesting that there is a spiritual nature that when one becomes inwardly aware of truth the spiritual result is joy. This joy is express to others in a manner that all that share the spiritual awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion. At the same time those that are not connected with truth have no inner awareness of joy and as a result radiate a sour attitude that destroys the circle of joy, love and compassion. Jesus warned about “false teachers” that would destroy the flock (awareness of joy in a circle of love and compassion). Shakespeare said it this way – “To thy own self be true and it shall follow as the night the day – thou cannot be false with any man.” One indication of someone that is connected to truth – self aware of truth – is an attitude of joy which is part of the light of Christ. The Traveler

One of the interesting expressions is the idea concerning the folly of youth and the wisdom of age. Although I was impressed with the lovely young lady I met and married; the power of love and the strength of our marriage came years later as we grew older together knitting our differences into a wonderful and beautiful tapestry. I realize that many take stock in the love at first sight concept – which I also hold but the love generated at first sight is not the power from which everlasting relationships are made. It is only a beginning. And so I believe it is with truth. Many times we become convinced of a thing early on – but that is not really the power of truth. For me, the beginning of truth is like planting a seed that even when it first begins to grow is quite tender and requires great care and attention. The power of truth is what comes with time and seasons. It does not narrow our understanding of things but expands and add to all things we encounter. It does not create contradictions but is a greatly prized treasure that is always growing. As time passes it become less of a mystery and more of something that should be plain and simple to everyone. Doubts of it fade over time and the joy of it expands. I realized that many abandon truth during the early seemingly inconveniences; their youthful joy is replaced with sour disposition and cranky demeanor. Is it ignorance that is bliss and knowledge that turns people into enemies? I do not think so. I am convinced that truth and knowledge is what makes a person kind when it is the only source around them. It is truth that turns a person to kindness when all others are convinced there is no reason or place for compassion. When other see only despair it is the truth and those that enjoy it that lives for joy even through the darkest nights of despair. Does my belief in Christ limit me and what I can do – not really? My faith in Christ and living according to his gift of truth opens me to divine possibilities and the pursuits of G-d. The Traveler

There are two ways to be aware of that which takes place around us. There is a spiritual awareness and a physical awareness that involves our 6 senses. The fullness of knowledge, which is divine joy comes from knowing the truth of all things both spiritually and physically - it is the only way that man can truly be free. The Traveler

Jason's answer to this was the Law of Karma and reincarnation. I like that. The standard Unitarian/Universalist answer I have heard is: Yes, Hitler will be saved. Isn't the love of God extravagant and glorious? After all, who can outsin the love of God? Nobody has that much power! Furthermore, regarding the quality of heaven--it's all about God. It's his creation, and he will assure that--as we say in government--"Controls and checks are in place to assure that deficiencies do not repeat. I do not agree with Universalism, but it does blunt many of the criticisms non-Christians level at as "judgmental" folks. Just a note about all this - I believe that everybody that wants to be saved will be saved. I also believe that those that do not want to be saved will not be forced into it. Jesus put it this way - "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." This is a spiritual statement - not to be understood empirically. Someday when I have a lot of time and some on the forum are interested - perhaps I could offer my understanding of the vast difference between empirical logic and spiritual logic and how we tend to argue things that are understood by the spirit with empirical logic, notions and references - which is a critical error and horrible mistake. The Traveler

The rape is not a temptation or sin to her but to not be able to forgive or live a productive life would be when she reaches the age of accountability. If she were to die before accountability she is innocent - according to what I understand in scripture. What is your point?The Traveler

Jason: I believe you are mistaken on several points. For example, what points of temple worship are given in LDS scripture that are not in any of the ancient finds referred to by Das. Please note the scripture by chapter and verse. Some references form the Dead Sea Scrolls that correspond to LDS revelations. The Book of Enoch as compared to the Pearl of Great Price - Specifically the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. References to the Priesthood of Melchizedek - The Doctrine and Covenants and the DSS Testaments of the Patriarchs. The Traveler

So hardships, afflictions and personal trials cannot ever be included in what is a temptation?BTW - I consider my self a supper strong Christian - I can resist anything but temptation. The Traveler

I think you do not understand The promise offered in Corinthians - It is my understanding that only those that enjoy the covenant protection of G-d cannot be tempted beyond what they can endure.The Traveler

Since I started this mess I thought I would give some opinion about where it has gone. Pont 1: I believe that we legislate morals into law. In fact morals are the only laws that man can make and enforce. We cannot change and enforce the universal gravitational constant, the value of pi or anything other than our morals. Point 2: Whose morals – the majority. Often I disagree with the majority but I believe if I use the force of law to install my morals over that of the majority I am creating a state of tyranny. I believe anyone that installs any laws contrary to the morals of the majority is creating a state of tyranny. Point 3: The majority can make mistakes but the mistakes of minorities have always been worse in the long run. Point 4: Our morals are not what we say – they are what we do. If we live by the rule of law (and I think we should) then any and every exception is the law. Point 5: I believe it is stupid and foolish and evil to waist a good human life because of our personal flaws. Point 6: I am aware that the US Supreme has ruled that a fetus during the 1st trimester is not human life. I believe that ruling is in error because we know that the fetus meets all the criteria for life – therefore the question is not if there is life but if the life is human. I use the logic of elimination. Since it cannot be proven that a fetus is some other life other than human then it must be human. This is an extension of the innocent until proven guilty concept. If anyone disagrees with this concept – may I ask – how do we prove that any life is a human life? Especially those people that are handicapped? Where is the line drawn between that which is human and that which is not? The Traveler

The first responsibility is to those involved in the cause. The secondary responsibility is to the family and friends (support group) of those involved in the cause and the last responsibility is to society. Let us not get this backwards There is a gross misunderstanding here in government funding. The idea was started in 1960 when it was discovered that if just 2% of the USA gross national product was transferred to the poor, we could do away with poverty. Since 1960 the amounts and percent has increased so that we are now transferring over 20% yet we have worse poverty. Funding has not been slashed – we have made the situation worse. Just a side note here - The USA takes over 60% of funds from poverty programs to support the bureaucracy. Not one of the programs you are talking about as proven to help has done anything to reduce the number of high-risk children. Just because something is better than feeding children to crocodiles does not mean that it is a good and desirable thing and must be supported. We know what is best for children and that is what must be encouraged or we contribute (either directly or indirectly) to the abuse of children. I would like to see your data that adoration has had any significant effect on reducing abuses to children and convincing anyone that would abuse children from such a thing. I feel quite differently – The attitude that justifies adoration is the basis of abusive attitudes and is more justification than a deterrent. It is very much part of the problem and not at all a solution. At best it is a band aid that does noting to prevent anyone from preventing or avoiding more wounds. The best of man has evolved from much worse - your sense of helplessness is not a true sense. Just because someone believes a thing does not mean it is true. Almost everyone that takes a life believes there is justification - It is said that Baby Face Nelson believed his killings was doing the world a favor. No - I have not had anything to do with the Republican Party since Nixon. I have been political active and served as the legislative chairman (over all the lobbyists) for the PTSA in the state of Washington. I also was involved in the Presidential campaign of Alan Keys. The Traveler