Traveler

We can only speculate as to why a certain Christian organization obtained complete control of the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Jewish state of Israel, creating the Dead Sea Scroll Society and then only released the translations they wanted. Prior to 1993 any one that tried to question the translations rendered were criticized that they did not have complete understanding – not having access to the originals. 1993 was the year the photographs were discovered and distributed. The Dead Sea Scroll Society tried many legal suits to gain control but in the end lost control. The intellectual field is still dominated so completely that the actual ancient name of the settlement by the Dead Sea is never published for fear of reprisals and being discredited. Also the Essens are given credit for DSS manuscripts despite the fact that there is not even one artifact of evidence and hundreds of artifacts that prove that the source was not Essen. In 1849 a copy of the New Testament was discovered but has been kept from public knowledge. It would have remained that way but the manuscripts were kept unchallenged by the Eastern Orthodox Church and fell into Russian Communist hands. When communism fell in Russia a list of religious Icons were published before they were returned. I personally joined with some Eastern Orthodox friends to notify religious leaders through out the world to petition for these manuscripts be made available to the public. We were greatly outnumbered and were not even able to get a list of the books that comprised this great library. It is my understanding that this library has been dated to a time that apostles may still have been alive. It is speculated that some of the manuscripts may have been written by the authors themselves which would make them the only autograph manuscripts of any ancient scripture. It is my personal speculation that the only reason these manuscripts remain hidden (“sealed”) is because they would change the current understanding of things. The Traveler

It is my understanding - therefore correct me if I am wrong but with rare exception modern renditions of scripture are versions and not translations. But let me see if I understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying that during much of the 2000 years of traditional Christian history there appears to be a evolution of rendering the scriptures such that the content was slipping away from accuracy and that at some point in the modern era this trend was reversed and that since that point there has been a steady evolution toward rendering the scriptures more accurately? The Traveler

This has happened but the New Testament manuscripts are being kept from any public view or access - Just as 50 manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls were kept from public view until early photos of all the manuscripts were found by accident and published on the internet - 40 years after they were discovered and hidden. BTW these DSS manuscripts have brought about more changes to current versions of the Old Testament than any other single discovery in history The Traveler

Just pointing out that your "difficulties with this reasoning", numbers 2 and 4 are contradictions. The Traveler

Since there has been no ancient text identified as the accurate text, it is a futile effort to determine which translation is the most accurate. The translations and modern versions should be updated as we learn more about the ancient text. The problem is that the reading of the ancient text is also affected by the current popular prejudices of modern believers – even among scholars. The scriptures were not written by scholars. When Judaism and Christianity was Paganized it became the exploits of professional experts to desirer doctrine from sacred text. In Old Testament times such experts were sometimes called Chaldeans. These were Pagan oracles that made their living disclosing the secrets of divine text. This pagan method has become one of the most popular methods to resolve conflicts in scriptural understanding in our day. That is – with the exception of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; which by covenant recieves the servants called by prophasy. The Traveler

I attempted to thank you for your post but the something goofy was going on and the site system would not let me. This agrees with LDS doctrine - the one point is that in LDS doctrine a soul's probation is not over until sometime after they have suffered death - where we believe all that seek will indeed find G-d if the opportunity was not able to be completed correctly in this life – which means there was no authorized saint that declared the “fullness” of the Gospel of Christ to them. Thanks again. The Traveler

This is an excellent post but let us clarify an important notion about the resurrection of the dead. The scriptures tell us of three resurrections. The First (greatest or most noble) is Celestial, the second (not greatest and less noble) is the Terrestrial, and the third is the least great and least noble and is called the Telestial. (See 1Cor 15) Some confuse the First, Second and Third resurrections as being in strict chronological order and count the number by when the resurrection begin. This is only true in part because there will be two first resurrections. One for the saints prior to Christ (that began when Jesus was resurrected) and the second - first resurrection for the saints after the admonition of Christ which will begin when Christ returns. The second resurrection will not begin until all Celestial (or first) are completed. The third or Telestial will not start until the second (or Terrestrial) has been completed. The Traveler

I know of a movie current being done that depicts a typical “Mormon” family and what it is like to grow up in a typical Mormon family and Mormon community. The script is quite interesting and many that have seen the script think this is not about Mormons but typical of any religion and any religious community. (The intent of the author) I am sorry, but since I was asked to consult on the script and film I am not at liberty to say much more about the movie until after it comes out and is distributed. I am just doing all I can to keep it from being rated “R”. The Traveler

There is an old saying – how do you know when a politician is lying? The answer is that you know a politician is lying when their lips are moving. I will now state that I do not support any candidate for president from either the Republican or Democratic Party. This post is not intended to advance or distract either candidate. I just want to address a political lie that has troubled and deceived many in this country for several generations. I believe that all citizens should be taxed. No citizen or group of citizens should be expected or required to sacrifice more for their country than others. But there is the idea that even though our country is 150 years old – that in order to survive and continue as a strong country we must change what made us strong (which always means add to) programs and in order to fund the changes we must increase the taxes. Since no one wants their taxes to increase – let us pick on the nations smallest and most hated minority – the rich. I would like to point out some reasons why this is a lie. First, whenever this is proposed by a politician it is always proposed by someone that is part of the privileged “rich” class. I find that rather odd. The next thing we discover is that the rich persons purposing that we tax the rich is also surrounded and supported by many more “rich”. In fact they seem to fill their election coffers with so much of the rich stuff (often hundreds of millions of dollars) that they could do much to solve the problem with that money. But they do not want to use their money. If they did they would have done something already with their money and likely solved the problem. Why would the rich support candidates and politics that would increase their taxes for causes they do not contribute that much of their own money currently? The answer my friends is that the whole tax the rich is a bold face lie. Always – and I mean always there are “loop holes” created for and by the rich (including the rich supporters of the rich) to avoid the increase in taxes. Instead the tax is intended for the middle class. The result is that the middle class is shrinking and that the disparity between rich and poor is growing. If a program is worth while it should be paid for by every citizen. Should the rich pay more taxes – yes, of course but they won’t. They will buy of politicians and use their resources for their benefit. Is this a shock? The USA is a government, of the people, for the people and by the people. An oppressive government is one that divides its people such that the benefits of some are paid for by others. Every government program should be contributed to by every citizen. No one should have a free ride. A person that cannot, has not, and will not contribute of their own should not be considered or thought of as a citizen or patriot. If a program is not of enough value to you that you are willing to raise you taxes – do not pretend you support it. It makes you as much a liar and more than the politicians that you hate in the other party. The Traveler

A very interesting post – at least to me. Please let me ask a question. Is there, with in “the church”, any retribution (punishment – or less chance) for someone that has been redeemed of Christ but that does not reach out to another that then dies before hearing and therefore saved? Who would suffer the more or have the most slim chance? The one that searched but never believed in Christ or the believer in Christ that did not love his lost brother? The Traveler

The binary construct of true and false is as you say is imbedded in mathematics. But the overall statement is always true. That is, when the construct of math identifies something as false – that identification is always true. Often we think of mathematics as a vehicle to prove something to be true – mathematics is just as effective at proving something false – which is a true assessment of the condition. So it is impossible to lie which was the basis of my comment. The fact that math exist and can be useful outside of our understanding of it proves that things can exist and be useful outside of our understanding. To imply that G-d does not exist outside of our understanding means that in order to draw such a conclusion the person using such logic must therefore be able to demonstrate that point where something that we do not understand can no longer exist and be useful. But the infinite nature of math and through permutations and probabilities indicates that conclusion is most unlikely.The Traveler

Thank you for expressing your interest in fractals. In a few posts in the past I have made vague reference to fractals and their abilities to calculate extreme (complex) ratios and relationships. Fractals are the basis of chaos theory. Chaos theory is the basis of every argument surrounding the preservation of endangered species, predicting the weather and the bases for concerns of global warming (naming but a few). For example, in global warming even though carbon based gases make up less than 10% of the aggregate greenhouse gases; the minor carbon elements can play a major role in the overall result – that is the theory. Fractals are used to map the most extreme cases on the overall effect of the whole from the minor elements of a complex system. I referenced extreme cases in determining possible social effects of large scale changes in marriage. Many posters – obviously with no background in fractals, mathematics and no understanding of chaos theory displayed their intellectual folly through ignorantly demonizing and name calling such scientific use of an issue they have formulated and concluded their opinion based on non-reverent made up political correct sounding bias of personal desire. Is short the magic of mathematics very quickly uncovered their ignorance and the insanity in attempting to address any such issue logically. Mathematics is so magical! The Traveler

There are two kinds of spirits. There are spirits of light and there are unclean spirits of darkness. A spirit of light can only be expressed through a uniquely prepared (repentant) holy individual. Anciently, such repentant and holy individuals were called prophets, seers and revelators. Such expressions of spirits of light have not changed even in our day and age. A prophet never was or never will be educated and endowed with degrees in a university to qualify them to receive and pass on any light from a spirit of light. It is now and always has been the purpose of unclean spirits to beguile those that they influence and that will receive their voice. Therefore all that speak with spirits are known by their fruits for an unclean tree (unprepared individual) cannot and will not produce holy and enlightening fruit. The Traveler

Okay – I started a thread about magic and it went nuts. It also appears that no one seem to comprehend what I said in my first statement introducing the thread. So I will try to make this simpler. First math is a language. It is a simple language with simple grammar. There are some very important things about the magical language of math: . It is impossible to lie without being obvious to all that understand the language. . You cannot even create a false statement if you use the language properly. . You can know the future by special chants. For example you can prophesy exactly when you will arrive someplace knowing the distance and your speed. . You can see into the past by special chants. For example you can force even rocks to tell you their age. . You can see un-seeable things and know un-knowable things. For example you can understand the bending and folding of dimensions within the universe. Because dimensional space bends you can by mathematics understand and comprehend a 4 dimensional sphere and how all points are at the center and all points are boundary points and that the universe is a 4 dimensional sphere. Yes, there are things that cannot be seen or understood without mathematics – I have heard of no other means. I could go on and on – but many do not want to believe in magic. Nor do they care or are able to comprehend that math is a tongue of angles a language of G-d. Many scientists do not want to accept the divine magical connection of math and few in religion understand the divine power even in creation appointed in mathematics – so they remain ignorant. Math is itself a magical demonstration and prof of G-d. The Traveler

Okay – I will show my age here. 50 years ago the LDS church was mostly a Utah church. Over half the members lived in Utah. The church did a lot of things in those days. The world’s largest basketball league was the Church. Each ward had a team that would play for the stake champion ship which when on to the region and then the best teams would meet in Salt Lake City for the finals. There was a great rivalry between Utah and anywhere else – especially California. The basketball was a big thing and the championship was bigger and more important than college ball. In addition every stake in Utah had at least one softball court. Boys played fast pitch and the girls played slow pitch. I played second base in high school on for a team that won the church championship. Larry H Miller learned to play softball in the church league and was an excellent pitcher. Much of what he learned about sports goes into his ownership of the Utah Jazz. The Church use to be very big about dances. Every ward had a Gold and Green ball once a year as well as a Gold and Green ball sponsored by the stake. Almost every week there were stake dances with hundreds in attendance. In Utah there were three famous places for dances not sponsored by the Church. There was the Apollo hall in American Fork with the KOVO record hops, the Blue Terrace in Salt Lake City – that also had a dance on Thursday night for LDS working singles (not in school), and Lagoon in Farmington (famous for the Beach Boys that had a popular song about that place). Another big thing was Road shows and again there was a final in Salt Lake – Some road shows came from California. Our stake won about 3 years in a row because of our director. She was then given a job at BYU and started the young Ambassadors and folk dancers – her name was Jayne Thompson. Another piece of useless information – I use to ward teach a man named Hugh Niblely and I delivered the Deseret News to another man named Eldon Ricks (who created the first LDS scripture cross reference guide called the Ricks ready reference. One last thing – back in those days there was a singing group at BYU that called themselves the Lettermen. There was also a group called the 3 D’s and a lesser known group called “The 4 Brothers and 3 Others”. I played with that lesser group and 2 young ladies that sang with us went on to work for Laurence Welk – They became known on his TV show as Sandy and Sally. Sorry to use up so much time. The Traveler

Another co-ed joke: Anyone know the difference between a BYU co-ed and a U of U co-ed? The Traveler

Difference #1. A trash can gets taken out at least once a week. Difference #2 A trash can will not follow you around after you dump it. He he he. Please do not tell my wife - Pleeeeease The Traveler

You are right about many points. But I think the concept of Kingdom is being somewhat twisted in an effort to make it fit today's every ugly stepsister's foot. The problem is that many think that by belonging to an organization their salvation is assured therefore we tend to divide the children of men thinking that everyone on my side is going to be rewarded and everybody that isn't will not be rewarded nearly as well. I personally think that being "on the right path" can be both a blessing and a curse. A blessing because it will bring one to be like G-d (which is a possible meaning of oneness). A curse because (according to Jesus and his teaching the parable of talents) to who more is given more is required. If we think we are more complete than others - it does not mean our salvation is assured and the salvation of others is less assured - it means we have a greater responsibility before our salvation can be completed. For example, I do not think a saint of Christ will be the first on the bus to heaven. I think they will likely miss the bus because they are still searching in the wilderness for the one missing. Being like G-d is not about power - it is about sacrifice. If one wishes to belong to a denomination that is about power they will discover that not all denominations follow the same path or encourage the same things. All roads may lead to Rome but there is only one path or way to the tree of life. The Traveler

I think it was Alma that said something like Wickedness never was happiness - but it was sure fun while it lasted. :) Sometimes we think of the worst sins as those that do the most harm to others. I think this shows a misunderstanding of sin. We should think of the worse sins as the one's that are the hardest to get rid of - the really sticky ones that if you just touch them a tiny little bit they stick to you like craze and everything else that you try to pry them off with. One last thing - there is a story of Moses coming down from the mountain and he told everybody that he had good news and bad news. The good news is that he and talked G-d down to just 10 commandments. The bad news is that adultery was still one of them. The Traveler

Just wondering about magic and opinions of magic. For example - I believe in magic. I believe that math and music are both forms of expressing and using magic. The Traveler

I would rather not go into certain points but it would seem that there are some discrepancies in terms. Please do not think that I am trying to create divisions. What is the meaning of the term Protestant? What are Protestants protesting? What does being “one” with G-d mean to you? See John 17:20-26 – I think there is prophesy here concerning confusion about one thing in particular, if believers become divided into denominations. Are denominations a promise of what will be in heaven? If not, why – if you think so, would you provide some scripture? It is my honest opinion that there will be no denominations in heaven and therefore there should not be denominations on earth (see Matt 6:10) Do some unwitting and ignorantly pray for one thing and then labor for another? – You are correct about dissension in congregations (even the best planted congregations of wheat?) – I would submit that Jesus prophesied of such in speaking about the sewer of tares. I think it is clear that G-d does not seek that there be differences – I had thought it was clear who does. There is a saying - united we stand, divided we fall I would also add that united in opinion is not the same as being one with G-d. I believe that sacrificing our personal opinions is the essence of oneness with G-d. The Traveler

There are reasons not to learn about anyone from someone that has bias against them. This best way I can think to make this point is by indicating the foolishness of learning about blacks (and other minorities) from the KKK. Thanks for making the effort to seek out "Mormons" for comment. If you are from New York city you ought to consider a visit to the Mormon temple down town. The Traveler

Are you or anyone you know capable of the unforgivable sin? The Traveler

Interesting question in light of Matt 5:48. The ancient understanding of perfect was complete or whole. There is a very real difference that is pointed out in the scriptures between being complete or whole and not having ever had a flaw. Therefore the question should be – which is complete or whole? The Traveler

Let me explain one simple thought through a question. What does it mean to be "one" with G-d? My scientific mathematical mind works likes this. If person “A” is one with G-d and person “B” is one with G-d then by the LAW of transitivity person “A” is one with person “B”. But if person “A” and person “B” belong to different denominations the singularity or unity of oneness is a contradiction. The only reason for multiple denominations is because there is an absence of “oneness”. Therefore if both claim “oneness” with G-d then the only two possible conclusion (under the law of transitive logic) exist in that either one is mistaken or they both are. The reason for separate denominations is because the believers in each denomination have a slightly different understand of something to which they cannot agree. If I remember correctly Paul was very upset in his day that some Christians had divided themselves based on who had baptized them. So he asked the question “Is Christ divided?” I think that some may be defining denominations as the LDS define congregations. But even at that I have attended two congregations of the same denominational church within a block of each other– yet they disagreed greatly on several different matters concerning how their congregations should operate and view certain doctrines. There is nothing I have observed in history or in responses on this forum that indicates to me that G-d is responsible for the enmity that requires there be more than one Christian denomination. The Traveler