Traveler

Am I correct in understanding that the revelation of which you speak is not "pure" or "valid" enought to be recorded, written down and added to your scripture? The Traveler

Interesting - Is not the real question about G-d speaking? Why would he need to speak if something is already understood from scripture? It would seem to me he need speak only if scripture has not been understood correctly. The Traveler

Not exactly a joke. I did want to show how someone could "keep" the commandment to tithe and not understand or keep the covenant. The Traveler

LDS believe that there is an actual and true “Kingdom” of G-d. As with any kingdom there is an organization. We believe that the kingdom utilizes Apostles as the living foundation of the organization. As the scriptures indicated Jesus is not the foundation but the chief cornerstone. With this in mind there are several important notions concerning revelation. First: Revelation is given according to stewardship. For example a father and mother can receive revelation concerning their family – but not for their neighbor’s family. A bishop can receive revelation for his congregation but not for other congregations. Only those with stewardships for the “whole” kingdom or the world can receive revelation for that stewardship. Second: Revelation becomes binding by common consent. For example, as person called by revelation does not become the bishop of a ward until they are “sustained” at a meeting for the purpose. All that serve do so from a sustaining vote by the members that are assigned to that stewardship. LDS people live by covenant. Part of our covenant is specified in D&C section 84. Not only do we accept the scriptures as part of our covenant – we also accept, by covenant, the kingdom of G-d and his appointed servants. One of the biggest problems between Jesus and the Pharisees and Scribes (ancient experts in scripture) was that those that relied on scripture only as the authority quickly came into conflict with G-d, his Son and the appointed servants to the ancient kingdom. Not only do we have the scriptures to guide us we also have servants (shepherds in Israel) appointed by G-d to assist in guiding us. What happens when there is conflict? According to covenant, we appeal to those servants appointed to the stewardship to oversee such things. Also according to the covenant we believe G-d will not abandon his covenant people in time of need. If a servant at the highest appointment of stewardship abuses their station then we believe G-d that called them to that stewardship will deal with them and preserve his people. The Traveler

It would appear that the Buddhist doctrine of “reincarnation” is not so far off the mark – just that we are not “borne” into mortality several times to progress. It would also appear that all “intelligence” seeks out that level that it will and not what others (including G-d) would will upon it - which is the answer to the question that started this thread. I have said many times and I believe it to be true - that G-d will not force anyone into heaven or hell but that we end up where we have chosen by what we want. In other words - anyone that wants to go to Hell will not be prevented from it; regardless of their religion, belief or whatever. The Traveler

All priesthood is Melchizedek. The Aaronic is a lesser priesthood but is part of the Melchizedek. Aaron was a descendent of Levi so many think they are the same - It is not entirely true but almost. The Levitical priesthood was the priesthood under the Law of Moses - a change in law requires a change in priesthood. I believe this is explained in Hebrews chapter 5 - I may be wrong it could be Romans chapter 5. Sorry I do not have time to look this up. Anyway the Aaronic priesthood is necessary for the covenant of Baptism which is the initiation to the church or Kingdom of G-d. Also in our day a direct descendent of Levi if called as Bishop can serve without councilors – note that the “high Priest” of the Aaronic priesthood holds the Melchizedek priesthood. The Traveler

The important thing about tithing is that we enter into a covenant with G-d. This is done at tithing settlement - we report on how we kept our covenant for the last year and we renew our covenant or remake our covenant for the next year. No one is a tithe payer (regardless of what or how much they pay) unless they tithe by covenant. I strongly suggest that to all that covenant with G-d - that they honor and keep their covenants to the exact degree and according to that which they promised. If someone has not made a promise to G-d (through his proxy servant) - they have not made a covenant. The Traveler

I would add to you thoughts - worship of G-d is not what you do - it is what you do by covenant. You are very correct -Baptism is the first covenant one makes with G-d but it is not the only covenant. One example I like to ask concerns the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not about what is okay and not okay to do on that day - it is all about what you covenant to do and not do on that day. Please note that I did not say what we tell others their covenant is their covenant - What is very important is that we know what is our covenant. The Traveler

Okay let us make this easy. Calculate your net worth and then figure out how much you will make during your lifetime (say 1 million to 2 million?). Then take out a life insurance policy on yourself for 10% ($100,000 to $200,000) of the total and name the church as the beneficiary. Now you do not have to pay tithing from your money and what you want to spend - you can keep all your money and still be a full tithe payer (keeping the L-rd happy) for much less out-of-pocket. And you do not have to fuss over any details. If you ever do end up with a little extra cash you never planned on you can just pay 10% on that. And if the L-rd really needs the money he can just have you die early and like magic you have paid extra – I am sure that will get you many extra blessings in heaven. The Traveler

I thought once I would write a little article explaining the plan of salvation. As I began to outline what I would include I began to think that perhaps I should write a book instead. Then I thought that it would take many volumes to be complete. I was not sure I could undertake such a task. I thought I would begin at what the scriptures call the beginning. I thought the logical place to start is with the explanation of our Father in Heaven. Maybe that would be book one. As I began gathering all the information I could find on our Father in Heaven – I began to wonder if I could even complete a chapter. Then I came to understand that we know so very little of our Father in Heaven. In fact, any information we have about our Father in Heaven comes to us because of the Mediator, Jesus the Christ. The plan of salvation for mortal man begins with the covenant of baptism. It is a very simple beginning. It begins with an ordinance performed by G-d’s legal and appointed proxy-agent. The first step to salvation is covenant and that covenant is Baptism according to the example of Jesus. Talk is cheap – there is no salvation without covenant and obedience to the laws of the covenant. The Traveler

It is my impression that covenant is more than the entering - it is the journey. It is the way and it is the path. It is the only relationship possible - ever - for anything between man and G-d. Anything done outside of a covenant is not worship of G-d and is accounted as evil and a sin before him. Jesus is the example and he did nothing but that he was commanded (through covenant) from the Father. The Traveler

The best way to understand tithing is by understanding covenants. There are 3 parts to complete the worship of G-d by covenant. Part 1. The law and promise. This is the commitmemet part Part 2. The trial. This is the part where one is tested - for example where tithing is paid even if difficult. Part 3. The fulfilment and blessing. This is when the Holy Ghost testifies and seals the covenant. I have tried to explain before that the only true way to worship G-d is through covenants. Tithing is a covent and an opportunity to worship G-d. Worship must include all 3 parts of the covenant. As with all covenants it is the work and desire of Satan and his followers to tempt man not to worship by covenant. An example is when Satan tempted Cain to offer sacrifice (part 2) without the law and promise with G-d. Even though Cain performed sacrifice it was not accepted of G-d. The Traveler

The plan is quite simple - To make all the citizens of heaven free and equal. Without equality there is no true or real freedom. As with all plans -> the devil is in the details. The Traveler

I have read to interesting possibilities for Hagoth and his ships. Possibility 1. The Polynesians. Possibility 2. The Japanese. Few have read about this possibility but the people we call Japanese arrived upon the Japanese islands about the same time as the disappearance of Hagoth. Having spent some time among the Japanese I was interested to learn that many have a very “white” skin. There is an ancient knowledge of the temple rites and covenants among the Japanese. Their samurai come from an ancient warrior priest similar to the ancient warrior priest among the Nephites. Anyway – interesting speculation. The Traveler

Sometimes I count you the better man my friend PC. I feel that my mission and calling is to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. The Traveler

Am I the only one on this forum that worships by covenant? The Traveler

My vote is for the Middle Eastern oil cartel and the Saudi Arabian Royal Family. The Traveler

The ancient Hebrew calendar is quite interesting. The first day of the year was based on the first week following the first new moon following the vernal equinox. There were in the various regions experts in reading the signs of the sun and moon that when the events of the vernal equinox and new moon had taken place the “witnesses” would appear before a “Judge” and give witness. When at least two witnesses had testified before the judge a messenger would be sent to light a fire on a hillside at evening for all to see. The next day would be the first day of the New Year to which there would be a celebration and feast. Often the question would be asked when would the New Year begin? The answer was according to tradition – “No man knows the hour or the day”. If the weather was cloudy hiding the sun and moon the traditional answer was, “No man knows the hour or the day, not even the angles in heaven.” It was not that an expert would not know when the events would occur only that the signs were difficult to see for the final sign and witness. I submit that many righteous will look forward to and know the day when Jesus will return. For example – when two prophets are killed on the streets of Jerusalem I will be able to tell you what day Jesus will come. When they rise from the dead – I will be able to tell you the hour. When certain events occur I will be able to tell you what year he will return. I believe I can tell you that Jesus will not come within the next couple of years. The Traveler

I find the question of Ghandi most interesting. Ghandi was converted to Jesus and the teachings of Jesus but because he felt that most of Christianity did not represent the teachings he decided not to call his conversion Christianity - instead he called the teachings to which he was converted, "truth". So what does it mean to accept Christ - to call yourself a Christian or to love and live his teachings? The Traveler

Again since there are many ancient oral traditions that make the same claim of origin with Adam and Eve and that also claim to have been proven over time (for example Judaism, Islam and Zoroasterism). How do you validate your interpretation of things over their claims or even the claims of Nestorian Christians – all of which claim to have maintained their traditions and scriptures (exception of Islam who have published their scriptures just slightly longer – but have not modified their versions since their first publication) longer than you have based on Western Christianity? I have seen some of the debates between Dedot (Islam scholar) and Western Christian Scholars and to be honest Islam makes a much more compelling case for validity and consistency of scriptures for the last 1500 years. Also the argument the Pharisees and Scribes used to question the validity of Jesus was the same as yours. I do not say this because I do not understand your argument and your validation – it is my perception that to a hammer everything looks very much like a nail or something similar to a nail. If someone’s arguments are as compelling as yours – do you validate their claim by your standard and expect them to not validate your claim by their standard? The golden Rule you previously spoke of? Has G-d left us with means (spiritual or otherwise) to seek truth – including scientific (physical) truths? The Traveler

Your statement: This concept of not offering "the Way, Truth and Life" is of great interest to me. Many years ago while in college I was taking a Philosophy class when a question was raised. Most everyone at some point thinks they have access to truth that others (especially others that disagree) do not have. The question is, “What is the difference between truth and what is perceived as truth?” Or how do you determine when you know the truth from when you think you know the truth? The logical answer is that when there is more than one that perceive the truth differently there are only two possibilities. Ether all are in error or there is one that perceives correctly and the rest are in error. I know that some argue that because of relativity that there are different perceptions of the same truth but they do not understand that the difference can be logically and accurately accounted for based on the frame of reference. If the difference cannot be accounted for, then there must, in “truth” be a difference. The point I am trying to make – or ask; is how does one validate their access to the way, truth and life when others are just as sure that the first are in error in their perception and that some different way, truth and life is valid? If you use the Bible for validation why would G-d change the method of validation of truth based on pre and post compilation of the Bible? And how is the Bible validated – especially when there are different versions both ancient and modern? Some argue that the difference is negligible – but if you are off by even 1 tenth of one percent on your way to the moon you will miss it completely. That kind of error to arrive at the next closest star would be a joke. How much error can there be in way, truth and life to eternity? The Traveler

I am not trying to take away from anyone but I am attempting to communicate the importance of covenants. See D&D 132:7-12. The Traveler

I thank all that have responded to worship. There are many thoughts that I have pondered. It appears to me that my understanding of what constitutes the worship of G-d is quite different than most of the expressions thus far. Please understand that I do not mean to be critical but to add my belief and understanding to what has been discussed. I believe that there are two great pillars that define true worship of G-d and that without these two great pillars, worship is incomplete and of little benefit or value. The first pillar of true worship of G-d is covenant. We learn from scripture that those that worship the true and living G-d are called “The Children of covenant”. Without covenant all the things we may think of as tokens of our relationship with G-d and the worship of him are temporary and an illusion and are not true worship of the living G-d. In the most simple of terms worship without covenant is worthless tokens of false teachings. I am sorry but without covenant your hope is vein. It is by covenant that the Name of G-d is properly taken and used in worship. Taking the name of G-d or referencing G-d without covenant is one of the definitions of using the name of G-d in vein. So that we can better understand our covenant relationship with G-d so that our worship is not vein we are given a most interesting type to learn and develop a covenantal relationship with G-d. The type of worshiping G-d by covenant is marriage. Marriage according to G-d is the type of covenant we must enter into with him before we can participate in real and beneficial worship. Marriage then is a vital part of our covenant with G-d. It has become very popular to claim a personal relationship with G-d but that is not exactly the manner in which G-d deals with his children. The relationship of importance is a covenant relationship with the L-rd – again the example of such a relationship is the marriage covenant relationship. I would ask at this point – How does G-d feel about a marriage that is not a covenant that he recognizes? The term used anciently is adultery. The short version – is that any covenant that is not authorized by G-d will end when one dies. All covenants that are approved by G-d will continue throughout all time and eternity without end. The second pillar of true worship of G-d is love. Jesus taught that there is a connection to loving and serving G-d and loving our neighbor which is all mankind. This idea of loving mankind as a type of worship of G-d was taught by Jesus on many occasions. Thus we know that loving our neighbor is not removed from loving G-d and is part of the covenant true worshipers’ experience. It is not just loving G-d but having G-dly or G-d like love. Again it is vain to claim to worship the true and living G-d and lack G-dly or G-d like love. Even the fallen angles recognize G-d but refuse his love (as well as covenant) and the love of their neighbors thus their worship (recognition of G-d) is worthless and in vein. The symbolism of love has 4 parts: 1.Heart 2.Might 3.Mind 4.Strength. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to break down these symbols and apply them to love. The Traveler

Just a note: History is little more than a point of view. The battle of the Alamo as a hostory lesson is quite different in classes taught in the USA as compared to what is taugh in Mexico. There is still had feelings among many Mexicans that some of the American heros stole land from the Mexicans that owned it and killed anyone that objected or attempted to defend their porperty or their rights - causing the war in the first place. The Traveler

Interesting - did you know that there is not a single ancient document of Biblical scripture that agrees with you? The ancients did not ever complete the spelling reference to G-d as an integral part of their worship. Do you believe we can learn proper and true worship from the Bible? The Traveler