Traveler

The problem in not understanding the Eden doctrine lies with not understanding covenants - especially in relation to covenants of ancient kingdoms. The scriptures are not talking about women and their husbands but about the covenants of women within the kingdom of G-d following the fall of man. Those that think being a wife and mother is belittling to womanhood will not find the covenants of the Kingdom G-d to their liking. Likewise men that find manual labor belittling to their education and standing in the world will not find the covenants of the Kingdom of G-d to their liking. The Traveler

Once I had hair. Having had it both ways I perfer being bald. I am not convinced that being resurrected with hair would be an advantage - I have other things to do in eternity other than to worry about taking care of hair. The Traveler (looks like a slender Mr. Clean minus the ear ring)

Sorry to enter this discussion late: Timothy related to scripture rather than to the Law or other designations used by the Jews. What we now call the Dead Sea Scrolls is quite interesting because of the scrolls found in cave #4. These scrolls all were “kept” in a different manner. Most agree that these scrolls were the scriptures to those that lived in the community by the Dead Sea. The question I would like to openly ask is: What was the ancient designation of that settlement by the Dead Sea? This is a very important question and the answer should be known by all Christians. The name was Damascus. There are compelling arguments that this is the very Damascus where Paul was going when he was converted to Christ and that this is the very place where he studied the scriptures for two years before beginning his contribution to what we now call the Bible. What this means is that the Christians of this day and time now have access to the exact text that Timothy called scripture. Not just a copy of a copy of some later time but some of the exact same text that was the scripture as understood and used by Christ and his apostles. The Bible tells us of a day when the word of G-d will speak from the dust. A description I find interesting. What I also find interesting is that most Christians have no interest in reading the scriptures used by Christ and make all kinds of excuses to either read only commentary about the scrolls rather than the scriptures themselves or translations of the text or they read nothing at all from the ancient Jewish Damascus. The Traveler

I would like to begin with the statement that the two concepts of the Law of Consecration and Socialism are in fact two opposite ends of a political spectrum. The most important principle of Socialism as I understand it is: That everyone has right by law, to the same economic status. There should not be any additional financial reward for those that work harder or smarter even from those that do not work at all. The most important principle of the Law of Consecration is in reality divided into two parts: First: that everyone should be compensated for what they add to society according to the value or worth that is being given. Second: That all should be expected to give freely to everyone in need (including the poor) according to their abilities to give and that those in need should maintain their dignity for being a positive force – regardless of their abilities to generate wealth. The Traveler

This is most interesting to me because there is a point here I do not understand about your belief concerning revelation. And you do not seem to understand my question. You need not answer - especially if you think I am mocking anything. You indicated that where you worship it is believed that revelation is a common thing that occurs today just as it did anciently. I agree - but when I asked if your revelation was recorded and published, you responded that it was not because it is not necessary (G-d's will as you understand) to record and publish things concerning those in Seattle that may not apply directly to those in Florida. Now as we discuss some things in the Bible you are telling me that they do not apply directly to our day. So far so good. What I do not understand is your explanation for not recording and publishing what is known to be revelation from G-d and considering that revelation - just as valuable as the Bible. All such true “stories” of dealing by covenant with G-d are critical -- much more for all in the current generation that struggle with the same things that we all now face that were not known in ancient times. The Traveler

I would like to know if all men, including those spirits that have not yet recieved a physical body; fell from the Father's presents upon the event known as the "fall of Adam". And that these spirits before coming to earth; enhabited a heaven where Jesus was and is King and G-d. If we all have been seperated from our Father since the fall and that even in the pre-existance before coming to earth Jesus was our only G-d and Mediator with the Father until that day of Judgement when those that have been Celestialized will return to their former place. The Traveler

Very interesting HiJolly: I have had similar experiences to yours - I have also had experience where I felt great danger while everyone else around me sensed nothing of the sort. But reacting to this thought saved many lives. The other thing that is interesting to me is a feeling that I know what is coming next - like I have seen what is happening before. Perhaps most interesting of all are the claims of Nicola Tesla that saw and tested his inventions in 3 D images of thought that only he saw. His first brushless motor he built from his unique ideas is still in operation today and his design has not been improved in over 100 years. The Traveler

Concerning the selection of church leaders by drawing lots - (Which I understand to be that all involved must agree on the outcome being correct and that there is no preceding debates over who it should be). I would argue that in this case the Bible Scriptures are acccurate and correct - and in every way exactly according to G-d's will and not men or political presure generated by men. The Traveler

Interesting argument, in light of your previous statements concerning revelation and what should be and should not be recorded - If it was not meant for our day (not to be followed) why was it recorded in the canon? The other question is where then is the current covenant recorded? Thanks for clearing, as well as you have, some of my questions. The Traveler

I thought the LDS canon was that thing that made a lot of noise every time the BYU football team scores on their home field. In reality the LDS refer to a select set of scriptures as “Standard Works”. There is a reason that we use the term “Standard Works” over the traditional term “canon”. This is because we should believe that our covenants, doctrine, ordinances and organization that will comprise the “Kingdom of G-d” when Jesus returns as king is not completed as of now and therefore cannot be a “closed” done deal canon. The Traveler

As we discuss our own thoughts, is there anyone out there that believes that thoughts are the function of the physical machine we call our brains. Are we in agreement that thoughts are received, generated and transmitted somehow to our physical conscious through what I will call for lack of more argument as “the ghost within the machine”? The Traveler

I am not sure that you have a valid view with this statement. The Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price are all records of another people, place and time and their covenants with G-d. The Doctrine and Covenants is a record of our restored covenants in our time. What is a surprise to an LDS like myself, is that that many other Christians have no record of their covenants. They say that the Bible is G-d’s word that they follow but it appears to be a selective or smorgasbord approach of taking some and not other covenants. For example the Christians of the first era held all material positions in common – those that held out for themselves, some favored possessions, were in clear violation of the covenant. LDS can say we do not rely on the Bible for all our covenants – therefore we can make a rhetorical argument as to why this is not part of our covenant. But for those that claim the Bible is G-d’s word and direction must admit that they do not in fact use the Bible (and nothing else) to complete all their covenants. I have yet to learn of a non-LDS Christian organization that uses G-d’s word in the Bible as the means to know how to collect and utilize monetary and non monetary funds. The Traveler

The question to start this thread is improper and misleading in my mind. We all know that there are errors and differences in all the ancient manuscripts from which we attempt to make our modern versions of the Bible. Those that believe the Bible to be exact modern counterpart of the original scriptures as G-d spoke through his prophets are simply wrong and misleading themselves and others. Those that think because there are errors that the Bible cannot be trusted as a means to learn about G-d have another problem that is historically proven – that is the question of what is reliable and something to be trusted not only for a single generation but for generations to come that is of more worth than the Bible. (Just a quick note here because the Book of Mormon could be argued as more reliable for this discussion but the B of M is relatively new in our generation.) Those that argue that the Bible is all that is needed of G-d’s word are also not very mindful of the economy of G-d’s word - even in the Bible. If the Bible is all that is needed, it is greatly flawed because the Bible itself does not tell us that. So the Bible cannot be all that is needed because if a, “all that is needed doctrine” was in truth needed it would be clearly given somewhere in the Bible. In general I believe we need to understand that scriptures are a beginning of understanding – not the end. Some think that scripture is the litmus test by which all other sources of truth are to be judged. I would remind those that believe this doctrine consider carefully that this was the argument that Satan attempted to use to dissuade Jesus from being obedient of others methods G-d has of making his word known among man (including Jesus at that moment). Scriptures are only beneficial as one of many means to bring a person to G-d. The scriptures are not G-d nor should they be thought of or reverenced as G-d any more than any servant of G-d sent by him in his name. The scriptures are not the means of salvation – Jesus is The G-d given destiny of man is not to know the scriptures – or the flaws from the non flaws in scripture. The G-d given destiny of man is to someday be so enlightened within one’s heart that a Bible or any other written or published scripture is completely unnecessary. The Traveler

It is my belief that only those scripture passages that relate to one's covenant with G-d can have any real relevance to them. Only when we understand someone of a religious nature according to their covenants with G-d do we understand their contribution to religious purpose. It is also my belief that if any people are not recording and publishing revelations from G-d that come among them that their covenants and understanding of sacred things are not complete. I do not say this to be critical – only to point out a divine principle I find to be of great importance – which seems to me to be important to people of the ancient covenant that I find somewhat lacking in our modern era. And may I add one other thing? The publications or announcements of revelation should not be for personal profit or wealth. Might I add here that in the ancient worship services of Baal that those in attendance were encouraged to contribute to the priest(s) in accordance with the skill of the delivery and all were expected to give payment for attendance. In contrast Jesus offered his teachings to those that would listen; for free and without cost. In fact he claimed that all things came from G-d via covenant for free and without price – even to those that made offerings. The Traveler

I believe that what is meant is that we are willing to believe in anything that is true and hope in anything that is good. In addition this article of faith indicates that we are willing to go through whatever obstacles there be along the way of seeking truth. Obviously there are many members, like myself that have not reached this ideal. Usually when someone says something really foolish in a religious, political or scientific arena I tend to reject a lot of other things they may add to in a beneficial manner. It often seems that we do not have time for those with whom we disagree – and yet how can we learn something new if we avoid those that have a different opinion or think different of something from us? I believe that the answer lies somewhere in the concept that as long as a discussion remains civil and we avoid personal attracts we should be able to discuss any subject. Someday I would like to have a civil and open discussion about a certain topic without being accused of hatred or prejudice for just asking the question - of what possible benefit is there in certain beliefs that make such notions virtuous, lovely, of good report and praise worthy - what is to be accomplished? The Traveler

While we are considering thoughts - here is something else to think about. As you consider your own thoughts have you noticed that they are understood or expressed through a (or the) language to which you are very familiar? This means that from whatever “well” we draw our ideas from that we must either connect to them in our native tongue or somehow our mind is processing them for us so that we can understand in our own language. This then begs the question concerning the thoughts among our children that have not mastered language. This is of great interest to me because in my travels I have met, on many occasions, with someone that I could not converse because we had no common language. And yet we were still able to communicate. In each case I understood in my own language what we communicated. I also find that thoughts connected with emotions are the most easily conveyed in such circumstances. I would like to suggest a couple of things. First that thought can have a source outside of an individual And Second: that the source of some of our thoughts could be another person and that when there is understanding – it is likely beyond speech and maybe even without speech. The Traveler

As a scientist I find thoughts most interesting. I can understand thoughts that come as memories stored in our brains but how do we physically generate a thought or idea that did not previously exist in our conscious or even in our subconscious? Is there a part of us that has telepathic capabilities connecting us to thoughts that exist outside of ourselves? It has been said, “I think, therefore I am”. Is it possible that thinking proves intelligence beyond ourselves? The Traveler

I believe you are on the right track. I believe it concerns the attitude and sacredness in which we should enter, by covenant, whenever we present ourselves at the temple. Although a sense of humor is a good and desirable thing, it is not the proper medium for covenants. The Traveler

Make a covenant with G-d that you will give up your coffee to know him on a higher level. The more you know of him the more willing you will become to sacrifice for him and others - rather than for just your blessings and pleasure. The Traveler

Joseph Smith talked about the concept of order as an indication of intelligence. Indeed it is not all things so much as the order that exist between all things that indicates intelligence. One thing that I have learned as a scientist and an engineer is that there is no such thing as randomness especially order from random chaos. Just as time is ordered so is it that all things that exists temporally are preceded by a cause. Many like to point to G-d as the unknown cause that orders things. That only that which is ordered without any seemingly cause is G-d. But I believe that man, being in the image of G-d, seeing and understanding order does not disprove G-d but the contrary, it proves G-d and that we are his evolving offspring. Order denotes change by discipline. Discipline denotes learning. Learning denotes intelligence. The ability to learn denotes a G-d. Unfortunately many define G-d as an unlearning, undisciplined, all powerful being. The scriptures teach that such notions are not the proper examples of what we should understand of G-d. Jesus is the physical living example of G-d and the scriptures tell us of Jesus – “Though he were a son yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.” What a marvelous and compelling concept of G-d and mankind created in his image. No wonder G-d and mankind cannot be loved separately. The Traveler

It is interesting to view the ideas some have about attending church. If you were invited into the house of a president or king – what would you do? If you were invited into a structure intended to be the house of the L-rd, would you be any less respectful or concerned. I am quite disappointed that many have such a casual attitude about attending the house of the L-rd. Some of my thoughts about attending any church or place of worship anywhere in the world. . Prepare in advance – It is always a good idea to take a bath and put on fresh cloths. . What to wear – wear your Sunday best. It is preferable to avoid bright and laude colors or gaudy styles. Be simple in your dress and mannerisms. If you are not comfortable with local styles wear something modest from your culture .When you arrive explain that you are a visitor and would appreciate assistance and direction. If visitors are not welcome you will be instructed so. I have found that it is a rare exception that you will not be welcome. .It is usually a good idea not to partake of any ceremonial food or drink, mainly for your personal health. If you are invited to a meal, be sure to have plenty of Pepto Bismol. If something is contrary to your covenants (Word of Wisdom) explain that your covenant will not allow what-ever it is but do not be condescending or arrogant. . In general do not ask question unless you are invited to ask. Do not ask questions that might embarrass you host. Other than introducing yourself when you arrive, be very careful about initiating conversation. . Be prepared to give a donation. You may not be allowed but it is always a good jester to offer especially to a fund for the poor. (most religious operations have a fund for the poor). LDS have a humanitarian fund that visitors can contribute to if they desire. .If you have children, especially small children, take time to prepare and teach them proper behavior in advance. It is a good idea to practice (role play) with them in advance how to behave. Many families do more to prepare their children for an airplane ride than attending a worship service. If your children are unaccustomed to respectful behavior you ought to consider an alternative for them during your visit. LDS worship services are among the few that encourage children in attendance – even if they are difficult. However, some wards are less tolerant than others. .Be sure to express your thanks for being allowed to visit. After words write a thank you note or letter praising anything you can think of. The Traveler

May I add that perhaps the message to Cointh 2000 years ago does not apply or is not needed anywhere today. It is my understanding of the ancients that when G-d spoke, the covenant people made a record because of their covenant. But I agree with you when there was no longer a covenant with G-d to make a record - such things stopped. The Traveler

I submitted a thought about the most powerful secret combination in operation today. No one seemed to understand the extent of what I offered. Currently we are looking for the King of terrorist we call Osama Bin Laden. He is hiding in the mountains – an interesting place to hide don’t you think? Willing to kill to advance his power base – has anyone heard of 9/11 and who claimed responsibility for that? Do you understand that our friend Bin Laden has declared war on the USA and western religion and democracy? It is interesting that the drug trade has been linked to the Middle East. Some claim that even the American drug cartels have connections the Middle Eastern drug trafficking. Did you know that relatives of Bin Laden control the price of gasoline in the USA as well as the rest of the world? I also submit that relatives of Bin Laden influence, within the USA government, the deployment of US troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan? There is an old saying – follow the money – and where is the wealth of the world headed? Before you attempt to destroy the most powerful secret combination in operation today – you better be sure you know who it is you are after. The Traveler

In reality all history, religion, politics and some other things are really biased opinions dependent on the particular point-of-view. If someone is not willing to admit their point of view; it is my biased opinion that their view is not at all accurate and should not be believed, perhaps not even considered. When news programs claim "no spin zone", "That's the way it is" or anything else that ignores the fact of their bias - you can know you are not dealing with an honest person or institution. In general if a person is not willing to admit their bias but are willing to maintain an argument – I chock it all up to insanity (no other logical explanation that I can imagine). And if there is anything I have learned in life – it is useless to attempt a meaningful (or accurate) discussion with the insane. Attempting a meaningful discussion with the insane is just another kind of insanity. (and yes this includes the bipolar that refuse to recognize their problem). The Traveler

Many years ago when I was serving as a missionary a stake president had me in his home to watch conference. He offered a few ideas about conference that have stuck with me through the years. . On the Thursday before conference the general authorities meet in the Assembly room of the Salt Lake Temple for a solemn assembly. The brethren and sisters come fasting and in the attitude of prayer. I suggest anyone interested in conference fast with them. . Pretend that you have been called to prepare a talk to be given at conference. Have your talk ready for conference. See if anyone else picked your same topic. Save your talk – there is a possibility you will be able to give your talk sometime later. . As you listen to conference make a list of each speaker and a one sentence summary of their talk. I love conference. The Traveler