Traveler

According to an ancient Arabic tradition certain kinds of mountains are referred to as “borders” and it looks like Nephi picked up this tradition. (see 1Nephi 2:5). The type of mountains called borders are mountains that run in a line and change the topology. For example: the Wasatch mountains from Brigham City to Springville Utah would be considered borders. Often in the Book of Mormon there are references to borders. This can help visualize the land of the Book of Mormon. And so I wonder if the forum might be interested is a special thread were we could work together and collect all the scriptures that reference difference characteristics of the land and put them in a thread. Anyone interested?? If there is interest – would a monitor start the thread under the Book of Mormon Scripture Reading heading?? The Traveler

Since the Bible tells us the Satan is "the G-d of this world" and since I believe the bible is correct - I am a polytheist The ancient word discribing G-d as "one" G-d is "ehad". If this word is interperted to be singular (which should be determined by the way it is used) the Hebrew of single or counting "one" means that there are not parts or divisions. Many well educated Jews try to point this out to some Christians that as long as Christians recognize the persons of the Father - Son and Holy Ghost they are polytheist because if violates the Hebrew expression of ehad as a singular notion. Christians that think there is something wrong with LDS polytheism but that there is nothing wrong with the Trinity are not much more that the pot calling the kettle black. The Traveler

Do you think that the only way unclean spirits have influence in our lives is when they are saught - or will an unclean spiritual influence seek us out as in the example of Eve in the garden? The Traveler

Prisonchaplain & abqfriend: Just for clarification according to LDS doctrine: Baptism is an initiatory ordinance to the covenant by which one becomes a citizen in the Kingdom of G-d (or if you will church). It is the ordinance of spiritual rebirth symbolizing a death and internment of the old self and birth or newness of someone borne of G-d as well as the coronation of sainthood. The person performing the baptism (as with all ordinances) takes the place or role of G-d as proxy in offering the covenant. This is why John had difficulty baptizing Jesus – realizing that Jesus was G-d and not understanding the full purpose and condescension of Jesus in accepting his own covenant. I believe there are several parts of a covenant – in this case the baptism covenant with G-d: 1: Physical submission to the ordinance of the covenant. 2: Recognition of the law given in the covenant. 3: Obedience to all the promises made in the covenant. 4: Faithfulness throughout a trail in order fulfill or test all commandments which comprise the Law given in the covenant. We believe that salvation can only come through covenant with G-d and that only appointed servants of G-d may act as proxy for G-d when a covenant is made through performing an ordiance – in this life or the spirit world following death and before the resurrection. We believe that baptism is for every person and an ordinance done by the saints for others who have died, as a act of sacrifice, love and compassion to mirror the sacrifice, love and compassion of Christ so that all have access to the covenant to enter the Kingdom of G-d according to eternal covenant. May I add that I personally believe that Jesus did not do anything that was silly, foolish or un-necessary. The Traveler

Interesting take on scripture - it appears to me that Jesus cast out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick. So let me ask you directly - can one successfully persue the things of G-d without the assistance of the Holy Ghost? By this same token - can one rebell without a similar connection to unclean spirits? Is it possible that some take too much credit to themselves and award too much blame to others? In essence is this exactly what Jesus asked us not to do? The Traveler

What is the difference between good and evil? And why must man have a mortal (fallen) experience in order to know that difference? The Traveler

I am asking a question if there is anything that happenes that does not have any spirit to influence that event - good or bad. The Traveler

What do you think - Is heaven a gated community? The Traveler

I see no reason to assume that anyone that desires the Celestial will not recieve it. I see no chance for injustice or any missing mercy form someone the deserves it. If there is or is not will not make a difference in justice or mercy. I see no reason to worry or concern for anybody. The Traveler

The more important the message of a prophet the greater the effort to discredit it. Concerning the polygamy of Joseph Smith, I have found no convincing witness that he ever had any children with any woman other than Emma. I also find no convincing evidence that he ever consummated any of the “sealings” of the polygamous marriages touted by those that desire to discredit Joseph. The effort as I see it - is to imply as fact what some can only speculate. Joseph had a unique boyhood friend that was well known in history for his anti-social attitudes. This friend likely knew Joseph when the first vision took place. He never desired position among the LDS. He was not much to follow any authority – yet he always supported Joseph. This support was not for money, position or praise. Orin Porter Rockwell knew Joseph as well as any man beyond Joseph’s parents and siblings. He was not the type to follow anything just to get along with anybody; Porter was outspoken and uncontrollable. Porter’s witness is set well in history and is a strong indicator that Joseph was honest and the prophet in his day. Porter never practiced polygamy. If anyone would discredit a fraud in a heartbeat it was Porter – and Porter knew as much about Joseph as any man. The Traveler

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen. The Traveler

This is a perfect example of what I do not understand and think is wrong concerning the Bible and the many versions we have today. Many claim that the Bible is from G-d (which is one G-d). When we versionize the "way" we add to the loss of unity and oneness both among believers and G-d. Often when we versionize a truth we do so in a manner that we place ourselves at the center of things - making the entire effort to see a "selfish" effort. The purpose of learning of Christ is to turn away from our "selfish" nature to one that can see with new eyes that is enlightened and not selfish. The Traveler

Most LDS that I know (including myself) are not so concerned that many people find comfort in the Christian churches they attend and do not care to read the Book of Mormon or learn about the LDS church. What does concern me and others I know are basically two things: First: those that feel it is more important to teach what they think is wrong with the "Mormons" more than they are willing to teach what is right with their beliefs. This is a major red flag to me about someone's faith in the “Good News” of Christ. Second: Is when they feel that they know more about the "Mormons" than do the LDS people that live the faith. Even when they find that some misrepresent LDS teachings they are still willing to believe what others say we believe over what we say we believe. This gives me the impression that some is trying to play without a full deck. Those the oppose the LDS without proper understanding of our doctrine (including those that claim to be return LDS missionaries and former Temple recommend holders) convince me that they most likely do not understand their present faith or intellectual status either. Let me give one example – I once conversed with a person that was adamant that Joseph Smith was a convicted fraud. Despite that Joseph has never been convicted of fraud in any court they still insisted he was a convicted fraud – quoting anything and everything but a court preceding where he was convicted (because there just is not one). The only possible conclusion I could draw is that this person had lost their rational marbles and that there is no sane reason to attempt to converse with someone so mentally handicapped. The Traveler

The Urim and Thummim as well as the Liahona function only upon principles of righteousness. True righteousness not only requires that we do good things of love and compassion but that we live them by covenant with G-d through his appointed servants. For living by covenant with G-d is the spirit of prophesy. You have discovered a great secret – the errors in scriptures are a insurmountable stumbling block to all that do not covenant with G-d to live as his saints. Perhaps it is for the sake of our trials acconding to our covenants that we do not have autographs or autograms to testify for or against us. The Traveler

All scripture is inspired as given to man by G-d. Interestingly there are no original scriptures (autographs or autograms). This includes all of our LDS standard works. The hand written documents that are the D & C were lost and only some printed pages were saved by two little girls. Not only do we not have the "golden plates" but the first written manuscripts were all but lost and all that is left is the printer's copy. No one knows for sure about the documents from which Abraham and Moses was translated. I find it rather odd that written scripture has such a difficult time remaining with mankind in the pure state in which it was given; especially the scriptures given as part of covenant and associated commandments and laws. The entire structure of the "Kingdom" is missing from the Biblical scriptures and is so misunderstood that many modern Christians no longer even think such is now worthwhile or ever was important. The Traveler

Without going into details - I spent 40 days fasting (survival training) in the Southwestern desert some years ago. The method that I used to find good useable water (among other needed things) is the old Native American method. Let the spirits direct. This is very different from relying on someone else as the "mediator" to spirits. I would pass on from my spiritual guide the probability of error in seeking a mediator to sprits is about 99.9999999% The Traveler

Good post Lehi: The law of sacrifice is a law of the covenant made or created by Christ. Because Christ fulfilled the law of justice he becomes the means (mediator) to give requirement for us (man) to accept, live and fulfill the New Covenant. It was necessare that Christ obtained the status of G-d in order for him to fulfill that part of the covenant. He then becomes the source or G-d of the new covenant - which is as you directed (a borken heart and contrite spirit). He also becomes the judge of the covenant - note that the meaning of G-d and Judge of covenant is the same. One cannot have a G-d but that such G-d is their final judge of their covenant with him. If we do not want to enter into the new covenant then we are subject to the covenant of justice, which because of man's fallen state is not fun, good or smart. When man comes to understand this (most perfectly in the spirit world) they will come to thank Christ. This will fulfill the prophesy that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The Traveler

Maureen: I have attempted to make my posts as benign as possible. I am not trying to talk about any church but I am trying to make a point about truth and what is fact and what is fantasy. Some points: 1. Traditional Christianity – in particular Traditional Trinitarian Christianity did not preserve the ancient scriptures to any degree of well or acceptable to me. This is not a function of time because there are many ancient records that were preserved very well during this same time period. For lack of a better term I would call the effort appalling at best. We also know from history that the Traditional Trinitarian Christians has a hand in destroying the Alexandrian library which is by itself the most appalling act of man to attack and destroy ancient literal works of man (including the scriptures we speak of) and sparked what historians call the Dark Ages. 2. There are no English translations of the Bible. All the works are versions and for all my research there are no versions of the Bible (ancient or modern) or any of its books that are authorized by G-d. It can be argued that the versions we have are “inspired” but it cannot be argued that they are any more inspired than secular text – such as the Constitution of the United States of America. 3. There are, for all practical purposes, no translations of any ancient biblical texts. We are, in essence at the complete mercy of so called scholars. Having visited the open forums for Christian discussion – I would say the most common phrase used in discussion on any topic or doctrine is that scriptures are being quoted out of context. My point here is that the Bible as we have it today is NOT an accepted authority on doctrine, despite what various individuals may claim. The reason is because the Bible is not clear on the doctrines and the context of doctrines. It is still considered the realm of scholars even in our day and time. Yet it is not at just at our “lay” level but even at the level of highest scholarship that disagreement abounds. An appeal to biblical scripture versions is not now nor has it ever been a resolution to different understandings of the sacred, organizations, doctrines, ordinances, covenants and practices of Christians. 4. All versions of the Bible, both ancient and modern are known to have errors and differences from other versions. This is not my opinion – but fact. I agree that the Bible is a sacred record, I believe everyone should read the Bible in at least several different versions. I believe there is much good, inspiration and even learning of G-d and his works from a careful and prayerful study of the Bible. I do not believe that the Bible is the only, the main or even the best means of becoming one with G-d. I do not believe the Bible is enough to direct Christians in all the ways of G-d (some definitely but not all) and those Christians that believe that the Bible is enough will have their reward – and I am sure they will be pleased with their reward. But I believe, and this is most important to this discussion, that one’s relationship to G-d can and should go FAR beyond what the Bible can offer. The Traveler

From time to time, as I study scripture there are certain phrases that seem to jump out at me. Recently I have been touched by the phrase “The Wrath of G-d” or “G-d’s Wrath”. I have come to believe that nothing evil (bad) comes from G-d. With this in mind what are some opinions as to the meaning of “The Wrath of G-d”? While you are thinking about responding – include your opinion concerning that G-d will reprove those he loves. I am thinking that even the “wrath of G-d” is a “good” thing. The Traveler

I am quite sure that Satan is also not afraid of variety in methods of worship and that he is much more pleased with such variety than is G-d. May I ask a question? What in scripture has convinced so many that G-d sounds a “uncertain” trumpet in his word? I do not believe the word of G-d is to be spun according to nation, tongue or people but that the same message should be given to all. If multiple denominations of followers and versions of G-d’s word is so acceptable why can’t multiple G-ds of definitions of G-d be just as acceptable (See John chapter 17) Why are you so paranoid about a straight and narrow way? The Traveler

Based on what era of history? From our own era: Do you know what the 3rd Richt was? The Traveler

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said: Only a fool is offended by someone when no offense is intended but it is a bigger full that is offended when by the person that means it. The Traveler

My response is that not much has changed - and I point out the criticisms of Christ from the Scribes and Pharisees. The book of John chapters 6 - 12 is quite interesting. I particular like Chapter 10 and when Jesus was told he was opposed not because of anything that he does but because of his doctrine that he being a man will make himself a G-d. Ever heard that before? The Traveler

The purpose of scripture is to bring a person to Christ – not one of 10,000 dominations or “movements” that suit them. Reading scriptures and attending church will no more make someone a Christian (disciple of Christ) than sleeping in a garage will make someone a Chevy. If we define our allies in Christ by the version of the Bible they read – we are not Disciples of Christ. The Traveler

There are three points or places I am going that I believe are very important. That all modern renditions of Biblical scriptures are versions even when translation is involved. It is important to note that these modern versions are created with no intention of providing insight into any single ancient or single modern document. They are all modern creations and are deeply integrated into modern methods and scholarship. The second very important consideration is a warning in scripture specific to the “Last Days” to avoid the wisdom of the wise and the understanding of the learned. The denominational divisions in Christianity are a direct result of different readings of Biblical versions of scriptures. As long as Christians refuse to use the same standard version any efforts at unity will be illusive. Until there is a single source there can be no valid translations and the Biblical prophesies of gathering to wait the second coming of Christ must come by some other means. But then you already knew all this - never-the-less; thank you very much for asking. The Traveler