Traveler

It is recommended that the amount saved for two meals is the minimum that should be considered for a covenantal fast offering. With this minimum anyone and everyone can take part in the fast offering covenant – even the most extreme poor.Most of us are fanatically blessed and able to covenant beyond the minimum with our G-d in order to help the poor. Just a note concerning the fast offering. If just over half the world was willing to covenant for a minimal fast offering we could end hunger world wide. The covenant of the fast offering is an essential part of the covenant known as the “Law of Concretion” and is a good indication of how much “oil” you have reserved in your lamp in anticipation of the return of your L-rd. The Traveler

Okay - according to the senses in 1960 what was the break down of the demographics of the poor in the United State of America, how much was spent by government programs and what were those same demographics in 2000? Let me help you - In 1960, single parent familes made up less than 30% of the poverty needs. In 2000 there is a big jump in poor families with single parents - over 60% of all of poverty. Also we learn that crime among the poor increased and that education proformance decreased. I am not talking about just increases in numbers I am talking about percentages of the total population.I am sorry I do not consider that kind of results as beneficial. Tell me what demographics are you counting to show that there is less poverty in the USA? I would also like to know what social program for the poor - anywhere in the world (over 50 years old) that you consider successful. I would also ask - what has been your bold contribution to end poverty? - Voting for Democrats? The Traveler The Traveler

Since it is you that is here - not the youth leaders or your wife and daughter - I would begin by saying - YES it is wrong to have the feelings you are having about your wife and daughter. I read an interesting study about the work place and I think it also applies to families - one of the conclusions is that people tend to respond better to praise than they do criticism. Many parents and spouses want to teach correct things and right things. My wife wanted to make sure that everyone of our family understood they were loved. If your wife and children to not believe that you love them; then your criticism will never be of any value to them – even and especially if you are right. In short it is better to be loving and compassionate than it is to be right. I have learned that once someone understands that you love them and would do anything for them – that they would be much more willing to do something for you. Although I do not know – I am guessing that your wife and daughter do not believe that you really do love them. Why they would think such a thing – I leave as a problem to be solved by the reader. The Traveler

My wife and I went out for a special weekend to a 5 star hotel in the San Francisco area – when we arrived at our hotel there was a chest convention going on and a lot of tables set up in the hotel lobby for the players that were very busy playing the games and slapping clocks. There was also a lot a talking among the players bragging about all the events, matches and chest masters they have won. It was really annoying. Turning to my wife I said that if there is anything that chaps me - it’s “Chest Nuts Boosting in an Open Foyer”. The Traveler

What you have indicated is very common. As a youth I could not understand how anyone could say that they knew anything about G-d to be true. I had great difficulty with the "knowing" something to be true. In fact, for example, as I observed life many people that "knew" the error of lies would still lie. How could someone make an error concerning something they know?As I asked the Father of Heaven - he would teach me but I could not grasp that there was not any connection to coincidence. I have come to know that seeking for truth is not a destination but a process. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and I believe too many people look at learning the truth of such things as a destination rather than a process. As a scientist I have come to have doubts of many things – such as electrons. I am convinced that there are great errors in our understanding of electrons – yet there is no reason to allow such doubts to prevent us from using a switch to turn on lights. If you can see and understand more in the light because you used a switch then that is a good thing. If you can “see” things in a better light because of the missionaries then you do have knowledge. If you can see better with such light – I suggest that you have faith and seek more light an use more switches to turn on more light. But the great failing in many concerning the Holy Spirit and such religious things is that it is not a “Me” thing. It is not about you, your salvation, your forgiveness and your eternal happiness. It is about what you can do for others (read about Enos Book of Enos, in the Book of Mormon). The Traveler

When we observe myosis in a single living cell we will observe what scientist call differentiation as the cell begins to unwind its DNA and separate the cell into two parts. As this process continues the cell will eventually divide. When the division has taken place there will be two cells as different from each other as from the original cell. This is evolution and it takes place millions of times each day in every human. It is not just a theory but an observable event. Once the division is complete there are two possibilities, disassociation which results in the two new cells completely separating and going their separate ways. The second is integration; this is when the cells form symbiosis relationships with each other which will define a higher life form. From a single cell of a single kind or type will come enormous numbers of different KINDS of cells for bones, eyes, heart, lungs, skin and every other part of a human being. This process is evolution pure and simple and it exists and can be observed by anyone willing to see it for themselves. It is evolutionary adaptation through regeneration of life. There is no evidence that there ever has been any other method for genesis of life that exists so abundantly. Every known living thing springs from this architecture. To deny evolution is to deny new life and creation. To say the evolution process exist to this, the arbitrary point defined by men as that of the species and then no longer occurs, is to me a mockery of what little knowledge the Almighty grants us. How silly are we to assume that the Almighty deceives us in what he shows us in nature or that we can make up in our own ignorant minds to a better understanding of that which he openly displays to all that will look upon his wonders. Has the creator ceased to create and put an end to his creative power? Does evolution disprove a creator or what the scriptures tell us? If people of faith allow this to become a definition we make a serious mistake. Is understanding of a principal a denial of the Almighty? If we learn a thing - does that mean that the power of the Almighty is no longer active in that thing? Not to me - I believe we should acknowledge him for all his works, including what little we have learned, and then seek to learn more of him and his works. I cannot see any difference in having faith in the truth of G-d and having faith in any truth - no one should be afriade of any truth or to seek to learn more of it. The Traveler

Interesting that some think you must be better, smarter, richer or stronger than someone to help them. Almost 50 years ago an “intellectual” element of our society thought poverty could be defeated with wealth. It was thought that taking 1.9% or our gross national product (wealth) and applying it to the poverty in the United States that poverty would be no more. And so the “Great Society” was initiated. 50 years later we are now transferring more than 5 times what was believed to be necessary. The result is not only is there still poverty – it is measurably worse. The better, smarter, richer and stronger were and still are wrong. Their effort is a sad failure – their wisdom is foolishness. The truth is that wealth cannot end poverty. The strong cannot protect the weak. The intelligent cannot end illiteracy. History is filled with foolish efforts that have always ended in failure. Those that thought themselves strong have all fallen – in the end they cannot even protect themselves. In short even the strong are brought down, become feeble and die – there is not one exception to the G-dless. The lesson that should be learned about the birth of Christ is lost. Those that think they know better – if anything they only lengthen the suffering and make it worse with a false hope. They only make a bad situation worse. Jesus said that if we continue to learn from him, follow his wisdom we become his “disciples” and that we will know the truth and the truth shall make us free. That truth is that everyone can help somebody else. Even in poverty the widow can help and contribute to others. Just as we all will sometime be in need of help we all will have opportunity to help. No one is exempted. Do not believe that the weak, the sick, the poor and the uneducated are lesser as some try to teach for they can help and do help others and their efforts should not be scoffed, discounted or turned away. The truth is that only in your poverty can you help those in poverty. This is why G-d condescended from his majesty, suffering even unto the scorn of those that thought the only deliverance from poverty is wealth and the foolish pride of those that think they are better and because they are better or when they are better can there be help. The Traveler

I would like to express a reason for understanding the birth of Christ during this season. Sometimes simple concepts are lost in the “bigger” picture. Of this post and thread I would have us focus and consider the simple doctrine or “gospel” where by weak things are made strong. It is the nature of this universe and state of things to rely on the strong. It is the strong that wins battles. It is the strength of wisdom that solves problems and makes life better. It is in strength that we look to religious and political leaders – and their great wisdom – to deliver us from our times of need. It is the science of the intelligent that pushes the envelope of human development. Or so it seems. But it is G-d that makes that which strong or worthwhile in eternity. In the “beginning” G-d created his strongest and wises creature from dust. Dust by ancient definition is a substance that has no value or worth. But we are told that G-d takes that which is worthless and of no value and makes that which is great. This is a much different concept than the understanding of evolution that by thinning out the week the whole is made stronger – but the doctrine of G-d is that there is a method to madness and that which is week becomes the strong. The most powerful force and intelligence in the universe came to earth and the manner was such a weak and feeble beginning that many do not recognize the truth being taught. Jesus came into the world of a woman – considered the weaker of the two sexes. He was not born in established habitations of human society but under conditions more suitable to beast, that are less than human. Jesus demonstrated that way – or if you will – method, by which that which is weak becomes strong. All of us that comprise the human family are weak. We will become sick, many of us will become handicapped at some point of our life and have to depend on others for our survival. We will all be so overtaken by feebleness that we will all die. Now there is a “BUT”. That which will become sick and die can be made strong. That which is weak can be raised up in divine power and void of all corruptible weaknesses. We can be made an heir to all that G-d has and is. Yes, my friends the great message is that which is weak is made into that which is strong above all other that can be related to strength. The true greatness of Christ is not in his suffering and death but in his resurrection to power and strength. All of which was done so that the weakest of the weak can be made strong like unto him. And what is one of the great elements of this strength that can come to us. It is not by placing ourselves above others – think we will be saved – or that we will be in the great Kingdom of G-d. It is by lifting others – less fortunate than ourselves. It is by loosing ourselves in the weakness of the weak and assisting in their poverty that we overcome our own. The Traveler

I would like to express a reason for understanding the birth of Christ during this season. Sometimes simple concepts are lost in the “bigger” picture. Of this post and thread I would have us focus and consider the simple doctrine or “gospel” where by weak things are made strong. It is the nature of this universe and state of things to rely on the strong. It is the strong that wins battles. It is the strength of wisdom that solves problems and makes life better. It is the science of the intelligent that pushes the envelope of human development. Or so it seems. But it is G-d that makes that which strong or worthwhile in eternity. In the “beginning” G-d created his strongest and wises creature from dust. Dust by ancient definition is a substance that has no value or worth. But we are told that G-d takes that which is worthless and of no value and makes that which is great. This is a much different concept than the understanding of evolution that by thinning out the week the whole is made stronger – but the doctrine of G-d is that there is a method to madness and that which is week becomes the strong. The most powerful force and intelligence in the universe came to earth and the manner was such a weak and feeble beginning that many do not recognize the truth being taught. Jesus came into the world of a woman – considered the weaker of the two sexes. He was not born in established habitations of human society but under conditions more suitable to beast, that are less than human. Jesus demonstrated that way – or if you will – method, by which that which is weak becomes strong. All of us that comprise the human family are weak. We will become sick, many of us will become handicapped at some point of our life and have to depend on others for our survival. We will all be so overtaken by feebleness that we will all die. Now there is a “BUT”. That which will become sick and die can be made strong. That which is weak can be raised up in divine power and void of all corruptible weaknesses. We can be made an heir to all that G-d has and is. Yes, my friends the great message is that which is weak is made into that which is strong above all other that can be related to strength. The true greatness of Christ is not in his suffering and death but in his resurrection to power and strength. All of which was done so that the weakest of the weak can be made strong like unto him. And what is one of the great elements of this strength that can come to us. It is not by placing ourselves above others – think we will be saved – or that we will be in the great Kingdom of G-d. It is by lifting others – less fortunate than ourselves. It is by loosing ourselves in the weakness of the weak and assisting in their poverty that we overcome our own. The Traveler

The classic point where science and religion parted ways is when Galileo published his now famous book about tides based on a sun center rather than earth center solar system. Many of the notions that defended the abstract concepts of the religious universe are still present in religious thinking. So I will ask a question about the 400+ years since Galileo: Has science had to make more adjustments (more radical adjustments) to the models created from math and physics or has religion had to make more adjustments from their models created from interpretation of scripture? The Traveler

Muslims believe in the virgin birth -- I guess that makes them more Christian than what the Anglicans are evolving into. One of the problems is that so little is known in scripture about the Birth of Christ that the story has been filled in with a lot of fables. For example: The scriptures do not say that Jesus was born within a day after Joseph and Mary arrived in Bethlehem. There was no discussion between Joseph and any Inn keeper. And Jesus was not born in a stable. We do not know who was present at the birth – we do not know if the other children of Joseph were there. There are other ancient accounts that would indicate a possibility that there was much more to the story of the birth of Jesus and John the Baptist than what is included in the few verses of this most important event. The Traveler

Not only must there be a sacrificial death and resurrection (for remission of sins) - which is the symbolism of baptism but such a sacrifice must be done according to the order and covenant of the priesthood. So expanding the understanding of the atonement – remission or redemption of sins I list the following: 1. Suffering for sins by covenant of the priesthood 2. The offering of one’s life by covenant of the priesthood (broken heart and contrite spirit) 3. The resurrection – to new incorruptible life by covenant of the priesthood. As a type and shadow of both the atonement of Christ and or our eventual resurrection we must do the following: 1. Suffer with Christ for sin 2. Repent and offer our old self which is a natural man – this is also done with a broken heart and contrite spirit. 3. Be borne again of the spirit and become a new person – a covenant son or daughter of G-d or a covenantal saint of G-d. Again – the atonement includes the resurrection – whereby we are atoned for our sins and our “natural man” that is our fallen state. The Traveler

There have been some very good posts. I do not want to sound critical but I sense a problem deblldo. If you expect an answer from the internet you are confused. If you lack wisdom you should ask of G-d. (See James 1:5-6). Rather than read the responses on the internet - I suggest you read the Book of Mormon and ask that the spirit make know to you what you should understand from you reading. I have my opinion and witness but what you need can only come from our Father in Heaven The Traveler

Muslims believe in the virgin birth -- I guess that makes them more Christian than what the Anglicans are evolving into. There are stars that will do what normal stars will not - they are called "Super Nova's" in our time and if a star super nova’ed within 600 light years of earth it would be quite bright and visible during the day - it's initial radiation could cause the ozone to fluoresce causing day like light (with no shadow) even after the sun had set.The Traveler

It is written in scripture that “The wages of sin is death.” Sin cannot be atoned until death is overcome. Perhaps someday we will discuss the sympolic colors of red and green in relation to the atonement. The Traveler

Another very important notion is the Fatherhood of G-d the Father and the family of heaven. According to the LDS notion of the divine family we are all the children of G-d; even as Jesus commanded that in our prayers we address "Our Father who art in Heaven". LDS believe that all belong to the family of G-d and that we are brothers and sisters – including those that despise our faith. You may have seen efforts recently in the news (presidential campaign) to ridicule this notion by making fun of our beliefs suggesting that Jesus and Satan are brothers. The concept of family is central to LDS faith. We believe the greatest blessings and joys of life can only be fully understood, developed and enjoyed through the love, sacrifice and appreciation of families. The Traveler

Use the military garments while in the military. When I served (Vietnam) there were no choices - our efforts for change were intended for your benefit.The Traveler

We are more "evolved" than a herd of animals. Yes our base instinct may be to let the "weak" fall off, but our sense of responsibility and compassion for others overrides that instinct. We do not live by our instincts alone. To suggest that Elphaba cannot have compassion because she does not belive in a supremem being is very closed minded. People do not have to belive in God to have compassion for others. The brown eye gene could be a recessive (sp?) gene in both parents, even though they both have blue eyes, therefore the reason why he has brown eyes instead of blue is that the recessive gene became the dominant gene. At least that's how I remember it from High School. You might want to talk to an expert in genetics about the effects of increasing numbers of “mentally ill” in the gene pool – including genetic altering caused by the use of drugs and alcohol. We may like to think that humans are above genetics – but I would like to see the data – if you know of any. I talked to a professor about this subject and he informed me that studies have been done but not published – over concern of public opinion. If someone believes in evolution and genetics is more reliable than religion – what is the answer? The Traveler

KC. I have thought a lot about your post and thought I would post some ideas for thought. There can be said to be 3 parts to the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah. First: The Suffering - There must be an infinite sacrifice for all sin – We know that in the garden of Gethsemane that Jesus suffered the anguish of all sin. Second: A sacrificial death – Sin and the fall of man require death for redemption – it is important to note that there are two deaths and the sacrificial death requires both the first and second death. I will note at this point that the second sacrificial death could never take place under a single Trinitarian G-d. Jesus suffered a physical death on the cross – we also know that Jesus suffered a spiritual death. I would be careful not to rule out the possibility that Jesus suffered a spiritual death beyond the cross. Third: A sacrificial resurrection – The atoning resurrection was unique in that it opened the door and allowed all mankind the resurrection. Although there can be said to be 3 parts of the atonement – I am concerned when too much emphasis is placed on any individual part. For without all three the other two or one would be useless and worthless. Understanding and comprehending the atonement must be inclusive of all three parts or we can become side tracked into matters that are not complete – or as Jesus said perfect. So here is an interesting assignment – how is it that the color red (or sometimes scarlet or crimson) is used in scripture to symbolize all three parts of infinite suffering, death and resurrection? And just for fun – why is Red and Green the colors of Christmas? In the past I have referenced both the books of Revelation and Genesis to piece together important notions concerning the mission of the Messiah. Again there are important notions concerning the atonement. The Traveler

Perhaps we should laugh at Jesus. Not only did he give the same talk to the people of the Americas but much of it was given by the "Teacher of Righteousness" in the Dead Sea Scrolls hundreds of years before he was born. The Traveler

No, you don’t. You see not a reflection, but my own humanity. I hope. Elphaba Now will you explain to me why your humanity (logic?) wants to "weaken" the human race - contrary to the natural forces of nature? I can understand the logic of protecting the weak for G-d and preparing for a life beyond mortality but without that logic - I see no point. I assume you took genetics in college. The Traveler

Sorry I missed the "spiritually alone" in your comments and scriptures. The Traveler

1. Not common 2. I have no idea 3. I do not believe it happens because of a goal 4. I could not say - I do not know. 5. They will - note the future tense of the statement. 6. There may be "other" manifestations of the spirit 7. By covenant 8. To be striped of one’s pride, cleansed and broken – no longer desiring sin. As to learning of someone seeing the Savior – If the spirit manifested that it is true I accept it. The Traveler

You have done a very good job CK - Just one observation that may lead to a question. Jesus was not alone at the cross. The Traveler

Yes, I would like to talk to him. Late afternoons are best for me, so if he is willing, if you would set up a time that would be great. Traveler, Have you talked to your friend yet about speaking with me? I am serious that I am interested in talking with him. Actually, what would be easiest is if he and I could talk and schedule a time. Elphaba Here is a link - you will find Chris listed - you can contact him if you like through the Atheists-of-Utah organization. http://nowscape.com/atheism/atheist_people.htm The Traveler