Traveler

I am not sure but I think you are referring to the Gospel of the birth of Mary. According to ancient tradition this scripture was written by St Matthew; the same that wrote one of the Gospels currently used in the New Testament. Like so many of the ancient writings and scriptures that we have there are multiple versions of this text.There is some interesting stuff about Mary and Joseph. For example according to this document Joseph had sons older than Mary and did not think he should marry her. There are some things that seem to explain some of the questions one might have about Mary and Elisabeth. I would recommend that this book be read to help understand some of the things going on during that time period. It helps to clarify the context of some New Testament teachings. The Traveler

In essence it is your genealogy The Traveler

Hey bro, What's with the "liberal persuasion" comment? You use it as if it's a slur. It sounds to me like the council was ambushed. I'm a liberal and I don't condone that. In addition, I didn't hear anything that indicated it was a liberal/conservative issue, certainly not enough to delineate sides. I guarantee you the adults that did show up with the children were not all liberals. Based on your description of the events, I don't agree with the council's decision and I suspect many liberals wouldn't either. Love ya, Elphaba I agree with you Elphaba: This is not about liberal verse conservative. Someone is using the children and I agree with you Elphaba: This is not about liberal verse conservative. Someone is using the children and does not intend to benefit the children. This has the smell of corruption written all over it. It is called the bait and switch and is one of the oldest scams of politics. This happens at all levels of politics and is the downfall of what almost is democracy. It is a minority taking control of elected officials and is the true methods of political parties - Republican or Democrat. At least in the USA the little demigods try to make it appear to have popular appeal. The Traveler

You noticed this also? I have some very good Muslim friends – but rather go into the details I would add that the western press cannot get anything right. I am only a little concerned with how easy the western press swallows propaganda. The truth is that the Muslim nation (a religious definition) has been on the verge of civil war for many generations. Despots in power have so abused power that I am ashamed the world has remained so ignorant. And I am not talking about cutting off some poor girl’s head for adultery. I am talking about a majority of citizens not being allowed to go to a beach in their country, hold a political office (or even be a policeman, fireman or be in the military). I am talking about young boys and girls (in the tens of thousands) arrested without charges and held for years without any outside contact to pressure the families of political opposition. It is interesting that some of the worse abuses have been in Bahrain that is kept in power because the most important military base for the USA navy in the Persian Gulf is there. And all this on top of the richest oil in the world and already everybody is taking sides – and I am not sure one side is any better than the other. The sad thing is there are many good Muslim people that just want a life. They want to enjoy their families – but of the Muslims I know that have left their home land – they all fear going home and what they will do to each other more than they fear what anyone outside the Muslim nation will do to them. One friend told me that after 9/11 they were afraid to leave their home because of some of the hate here in the USA – but even with all that they told me that they felt their families were safer here than in their home land. I wonder what is behind this hand of fellowship. The Traveler

I can always tell when a train has passed by - if you look carefully you too can see it tracks.Do you know what you can do with an elephant on the freeway? Almost 26 mph. How can you tell if you just passed and elephant? The toilet won't flush. Please do not make me explain these. The Traveler

It appears to me that the L-rd is offended with those of ancient times that attended the festivities of Baal while living in the shadow of the covenants of G-d. Something about being "double minded" and serving two masters.Personally I try to stay away from festivities that promote pride and selfishness - you know - the getting caught up in the costly apparel stuff - for birthdays, spring fashion and such things. Just as a side note - It is my belief the L-rd is disapointed when people show up for an event (blessing, missionary home coming or fairwell) and do not care to attend the rest of the block meetings. Not that anyone should judge others - just the children of the covenants. For some we are blessed to just get them to a meeting. The Traveler

The Gospel of Thomas and just about every other non-canoninical (sp?) work can be found here: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ If you are interested in reading any and every great Christian work, including the works of the 5 apostolic fathers and 9 early apologists, they can be found here: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.i.html This particular link is to volume 1 in a ten volume series...all of which are on this site...I am currently reading the letters of Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch...fascinating... The 1st Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians I found to be particularly good and it is filled with the Spirit...In part of it (chapt 45) he reprimands the Corinthians for expelling two bishops who had executed their duties with honor due to some unnamed controversy that was occuring locally...in chapter 55 he talks about the willing sacrifices of the early Christians, including one woman who sold herself into servitude in order to help feed the poor...pretty amazing stuff...By the way, Clement is thought to be a companion of Paul... Thought some people might be interested in the links... I find the Gospel of James most interesting - much of the tradition about Mary (the mother of Jesus) Joseph, John the Baptist and Jesus as a baby comes from this book. According to tradition it was written by James the older step brother of Jesus and Apostle and also the auther of the book of James in the Bible. The Traveler

Personally I repent every week of my apostasies before I partake of the sacrement but the bishop is too busy to see me every week. Therefore, I take such things before the L-rd in prayer.And in case you are wondering - you never have to (and I think need to or ever should) confess your sins on the internet. Anyway that is my belief and I have never found a scripture that suggests anyone confess on the internet. - Most likely your sins are quite small compaired to some of us. The Traveler

There was in the early history of traditional Christianity a lot of paganism introduced. For example the Word "Easter" does not come from any Christian Tradition and is more involved in the worship of Baal, or the resurrection of Baal. That a side. The resurrection of Christ was part of his gift of grace. The atonement was payment to overcome the effects of Sin and end the bands of hell that is death. The scriptures indicate that death and hell will give up all souls to Christ. He is L-rd of the living and the dead (death is another term for Hell). All mankind belong to Christ and because of that - every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Christ. There are two important points to the resurrection of Christ: first: It demonstrates that G-d has a body of flesh and bones (See Luke 24:39) Second: It demonstrates that Jesus has power to raise all men (See 1Car 15:22) The Traveler Why is their an Easter Pageant at the Mesa Arizona Temple and not one in all LDS Wards? I believe the pageant is not accurately named. If you were to attend the pageant I suspect that you would not find anything that employs many traditional Easter symbols (such as a special "new" outfit or any of the "spring" rituals. I think you would only find reference to the last week Jesus spent as a mortal - his death and resurrection. I believe all LDS wards play down tradition celebrations and rather teach ti principles I have pointed out. LDS do not hold a Christ-mas either but the word Christmas is often used in relationship to the celebration of the birth of Jesus - Which we know did not happen in December - which by the way was when Baal was borne - but even us LDS types celebrate in December anyway - and in a manner more according to the worship of Baal - although we say the gifts simulate the gift of the Magi to the baby Jesus. Tradition has a lot of things mixed up. In my family I try to emphasize gifts to the poor and the fatherless. Do you make any personal efforts to remember Jesus at Passover and in December - if so what do you do? The Traveler

Thank you for the tip. I have found an e-mail and I think professor Yong and I may have a little e-mail chat. I have some notes about a particular sect of Buddhism that I have always had a keen interest in. This would have been too funny had Professor Yong's first name been Brigham. :) maybe they are related The Traveler

Already I like Amos Yong. However, I hate to admit, but the name Yong appears to be Asian. I believe Paul taught we should look for the goodness of G-d in ever person we encounter. But for some odd reason the idea seams to come from the East better than it does from the West. Just for fun, I have a theory about this. I wonder if the Apostle Thomas had a hand in it. According to some traditions Thomas went to teach in the East. Buddhism (which had been around for about 150 years) suddenly explodes in Asia about the time Thomas may have been teaching. I have wondered if Christianity developed in Asia with differences because of culture and traditions with a look many Western Christians would not recognize. We LDS believe that even though much good remained in the world there were critical and necessary elements that were lost and needed to be restored before Christ returns. I find it interesting that the early Buddhist were very interested in Christian scripture and many of the early Buddhist temples kept copies of many of the NT Scriptures. Many of the early Buddhist have doctrines similar to Christ - for example there were 12 Bodhisattvas of tradition that in many ways is similar to the role of Apostle. The Traveler

I have no doubt that the spirit of G-d has been able to touch your heart and because of that you are a better person. Every heart that the spirit of G-d touches results is a better person. I am suggesting that every good thing done by every person is because the Holy Spirit has touched them and influenced them for the good. Indeed I believe that G-d and the influence of the Holy Spirit are behind every good in every person. But I am also putting forth the idea that men (all of us) are fallen and by our fallen nature are enemies of G-d. No one has, by their nature, a propensity or an acclivity of the good nature of G-d. Therefore, if any person demonstrates the goodness of divine nature it must be because of the Holy Spirit working within them. One of the tenets of the LDS faith and doctrine is that we must seek by covenant after anything that is virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy. I believe this is much of the essence of Christ and those that are “borne” of the spirit and have become by covenant and ordinance new (not just better) creatures in Christ. Until we are borne of the spirit and new creatures in Christ we should not look upon any one of the good nature of G-d and think ourselves better off because we believe what we think is better. And after we are borne of Christ – I do not think a person that is borne of the Spirit can look upon that which is the good nature of G-d and not give praise to where it is due – even if that person is not sure themselves from where that goodness came. The Traveler

Well, sure. And the fruit of the spirit (know them by their fruits) is love. Some of the hardest, most productive workers are also insufferable. :-) Also, keep in mind that Jesus makes us better than we are, not better than others. A Muslim could be very good on the goodness scale, whereas I might merely be good. However, without Jesus I would be unbearable. With Jesus, that Muslim might be an outright saint (think Catholic here). So, if you want to get better, get more of the Holy Spirit in ya. I am not sure I agree - If we as believers in Christ do not add light to the world we should realize our error and seek the greater light. Are not we commanded that we glorify G-d by seeing the light of G-d in the good works of others? I believe there is a connection that cannot be broken between believing in G-d and being the example of G-d to others. I am not sure that an honest person will be converted by doctrine, regardless how pure or wonderful it its, from a hypocrite. The Traveler The Traveler

I don't understand what you mean by "thoughts would reflect the method of the macine"; however, thousands of years of research? That's impossible.Elphaba Not really - There are records of individuals recording their inward view of thought that date back to around 2000 BC. What I believe I am talking about also concerns research into artificial intelligence - in particular as it relates to chaos theory. This has to do with patterns. The pattern that exist at the micro level are the same patterns that exist at the macro level. For example we see the same thing in DNA. The patterns that enable DNA at the lowest level of single cells are the same patterns that exist at higher levels of organisms. Therefore as we look at our thoughts we should be seeing patterns that are constructed by the structure of the neural net. But that is not the case all the thoughts we can connect to are thoughts that have relevance or symbolic meaning outside the neural net. There are records of individuals that have been driven to immobility with thoughts of terror. I have experienced this and was unable to cope when I was convinced to seek help in a 40 day fast in the wilderness. You may be interested in the account of Joseph Smith as a boy prior to his first vocal prayer. The point I tried to make is that such thoughts are not really yours. You are not the one generating them – therefore you cannot turn them on or off. You can learn to discard them by various means and methods and when you do so; they seem to no longer have the power they once had. There are also incredible thoughts of peace and comfort. You may have also experienced these thoughts as well. You may learn that these thought also do not spring from within you and you are not the one that turns them on or off although there are things you can do to enhance these thoughts as well. Perhaps you and I have walked in similar landscapes. The Traveler

Some notes about blessings as impressed upon you by the Spirit.1. Remember that you stand as proxy for G-d and that you are speaking for and as him. 2. Avoid using negative spiritual words like "might" or "should" 3. Do not give a blessing if you are not spiritually prepared to do so. Something needs to be done every day to maintain your spiritually preparedness. 4. Giving a blessing is the same as giving forgiveness. 5. Blessings have eternal consequences and often do not apply to just this life. 6. Giving a blessing may have as much or more effect on you than the one who you bless. 7. How the blessing is presented is not up to you and the actual words should not be prepared in advance The Traveler

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson or maybe Benjerman Franklin that once said: "It requires a very foolish person to be offended by someone that did not mean the offense - but it requires a much more foolish person to be offended by someone that did mean the offense."I would add that being offended is not only a choice but being offended offers without resistance contorl of how you behave to someone that really does not care at all about you or those that love you. The Traveler

We all have trials in life. I would suggest that whenever possible you concentrate on helping someone else with their trials rather than trying to concern them with yours. I have a feeling that because of your experience you could be a great help to many.The Traveler

You might want to cross reference this article with March issue of National Geographic. Areas of the brain that are used become pronounced and more developed. For example a blind person the reads braille will develop different areas of the brain that a sighted person. In fact it was proven that until the brain dedevelopsn a certain manner no one can read braille. We are back to chickens and eggs and which came first. One thing I find interesting - anyone that looks inside their thoughts does not find the methods of the machine. One would think that thoughts would reflect the methods of the machine - but in thousands of years of religious, scientific and other experiments there is not one case where such was the case. Not only that but research has found that despite brain damage making useless parts of the brain where some religious things seem to spring - yet there are still spiritual experience. I posted in another thread and suggested an experiment of looking at one's thoughts. I was most interested in the difference in the responses from those that tried the experiment from those that did not. I would be most interested if you have ever searched your own thoughts and why you believe certain thought over others and if you knew what thoughts are unique to you - if you have any. The Traveler

That's hardly accurate. Mainstream Christianity at first used amateur scribes (lots and lots of them) to maintain and transmit religious writings and then tons of "professional" scribes and copyists. Countless hours and years and more went into the effort. The Gnostics put some writings in jars and buried them. Would you highlight for me and the rest of the forum the basis difference in the doctrine and social behaviors from the scriptures and writings of the so called Gnostics of Egypt with say the Dead Sea Scrolls. the scriptures of Zoroaster in Persia and Christians pre Constantine. Lets touch on basic doctrine like the nature of G-d, the need for a Messiah, and pre-earth divine councils. Thanks The Traveler That's hardly accurate. Mainstream Christianity at first used amateur scribes (lots and lots of them) to maintain and transmit religious writings and then tons of "professional" scribes and copyists. Countless hours and years and more went into the effort. The Gnostics put some writings in jars and buried them. Muslims treat their sacred writings with much greater reverence than we do ours. They are astonished that we would mark up God's word the way we do, etc. I can respect the spirit of awe they have for physical presentatons of God's message to us, but I suspect that such has little to do with the veracity of the message itself. I would think that the effect that such message has on the behavior of the belevers has more to do with the veracity than any other consideration. For example did not Jesus tell us that we can best spot other believers by their fruits (fruits meaning deeds)? It is because of your deeds that I value your opinion. The Traveler

Like so many blessings given of G-d, a patriarchal blessing is wasted on those that are not prepared for the blessing. The council of the scriptures is - prepare you the way of the L-rd. The Traveler

I am quite disappointed that this is the general stand of many Christians concerning any writings of the early Church they do not like. I find it interesting that the so call Gnostics made greater efforts to preserve their scripture than did the Christians since we have earlier copies of such documents than that of the other books of the NT. I believe this is done to discredit the writings as heresy in the same manner the Dead Sea Scrolls are called Essen Scripture. Even though some scribes of Damascus (Qumran) were also at Masada - that we know could not have been Essen. Most Christians of today judge a people and their scripture according to the teaching of their clergy before they even read a word from the book or know a thing that they did. See John 7:51. I am touched by the spirit of the writings and with out question these writings and the deeds of the people that kept these writings are as inspired (if not more so) than the Creeds and deeds coming from the Christians of 325 AD. The Traveler

I have encountered few at church that understand quantum physics - let alone have a stand. But then many Christians (PC an exception) do not even understand their own religion let alone anything to do with science.The Traveler

I do not think that the Trinitarian concepts (Nestorian or otherwise) relates well to LDS understanding. But I am suggesting a historical understanding of how certain concepts evolved. When Christians discuss the nature of G-d and the oneness of the Father and the Son from a historical and traditional perspective - We should include understanding of past heresy and what was done about it. And ask ourselves if today there is more or less deviation in what has past as the consistant traditional (non-heretical) concepts.When we relate to Jesus as both man and G-d - how do we justify that in light of the scriptures without creating a heresy - either by doctrine or how we deal with others and their beliefs? The Traveler

Okay I see a nice list of scriptures as follows None identify Satan as an Angel - Jude talks about fallen angels but does not list Satan among them but indicated they were subject to him. Please someone show me a scripture that says Satan is or was an angel. I agree that anyone can speculate all they want about scriptures - therefor I respectfully ask my friend T. What scripture says without any doubt so we can know this is a true doctrine that satan is an angel 2Cor 4:4 says he is a G-d - not an angel A G-d with fallen angels in his charge. I know he has many titles given is scripture but I do not find one that gives him a title of angel. If someone says that something is scripture and a doctrine according to the Bible - I would think they know a scripture to back them up. WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SATAN IS AN ANGEL??? Just one scripture. Not speculation and everybody knows and all that stuff. One Bible Scripture. Would every body please answer this call - if you know the scripture provide it - if you can't find one say that you can't find one. This is not difficult. Don't say you think there is one or there ought to be one - just provide one. I put this forth especially to anyone that says the Bible is canon. Realizing what canon means. This is doctrine that is taught in much of Christianity. If it is true it is not in the Bible and this proves that the Bible cannot be canon if it is not true - then any one saying it is true is teaching heresy. Thanks for the interest The Traveler

Since you have it clear please provide the scripture that indicates that Satan/lucifer is an angel. I stated that I know of no such scripture. Since you know the scriptures better than me I would assume that rather than just give empty opinion that you would provide a scripture that would put me in my place.Perhaps you would tell us - what is the difference between that which is angel and that which is G-d. Since the scriptures are very clear on this point. The Traveler