Traveler

Book of Mormon - Alma 13:3-5 Pearl of Great Price - Abrahma 3:22-26 If it could have any influence in convincing you (not just for fun) I could dig up some ancient documents from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents as well The Traveler I basically agree with everything you said, but I am unclear about one thing - Are you saying that being created in the "image" of God refers only to our physical bodies? It is my belief that this refers to our "spirit" being. Josh B) The text in Genesis concerens a physical creation (flesh & bones) - I believe that the reading of that text is relative to the physical creation of man being in the image and likeness of G-d. The scriptures tell us that G-d the Father is the Father of our spirits therefore I assume that our spirit has the same relationship to our spiritual Father as our flesh has relationship to the father of our flesh. BTW - I am impressed you found something we can agree on. The Traveler

PC: You are such a good guy - I appreciate your efforts to bring a better understanding to the table. I do not want to make this long to read but there are a couple of concepts that I have that are in conflict with your concepts. But this conflict is not deadly - and could be a friendly conflict pending how each of us uses this conflict to understand each other. First - Creation: As a scientist and a devout believer in G-d: I believe in creation of this physical expanding universe. I believe G-d did it and that we can call everything in this universe physical. There are two parts from a perspective of someone living on earth. All the things on the earth is one and everything else which is referred to as the heavens (the sun, moon, planets, galaxies, black holes, dark matter, and things we have not conceived - both seen and unseen) is the other. This is not to be confused with the “heavens” that is the realm of G-d. That was not part of the creation in Genesis. The Genesis creation is all about the physical universe and its beginnings. When in this physical creation, reference is made to image and likeness I believe we are talking about a physical relationship. Man is the only “thing” in the image and likeness of G-d - even though G-d pronounced all of creation “good” and the fact that G-d the Father himself is “good”. Only man is in the image and likeness of G-d. The spirit of man was not part of this physical creation and was with G-d in his realm when this universe was created. Second - Fall: I believe there were two falls. The first fall was the fall of Lucifer and his angles that became Satan and his devils. They were removed from the realm of G-d and have complete access to this universe. I believe when man went to the moon he could still be tempted by Satan. Even though the moon is in the heavens it is not in the realm of G-d the Father. The second fall is the fall of Adam and Eve and that fall affected all man. It appears to me that Eden was a unique place where Adam and Eve lived without possibility of death, some access to G-d and yet Satan had some access in order to tempt them. When Adam and Eve fell they were sent out of the Eden garden to this physical earth as we know it. I think that at the same time all men (spirits children of the Father) became fallen as well and went to reside in a realm separated from the Father’s. Jesus, the Son of G-d the Father, and the Holy Ghost, were the only ones that are spirit children of the Father that did not fall but they left the realm of the Father and came with the spirits of man. Jesus is the only one that has access to the Father and the Father’s realm in order to mediate in behalf of all men. In the book of Job when Satan comes to the throne of G-d it was not the Father in his realm but Jesus, who is now the G-d of this universe on the throne of his realm surrounded by the unborn spirits of man - though fallen from the realm of the Father still unsoiled and unborn on earth. Please note: You may not agree with my beliefs and my understandings but they are clear and straight forward. I do not have to play with strange and odd definitions of words and things to explain them. Now I come to one thing I do not understand. Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of G-d. Their physical bodies were not subject to death and could not die until after their fall. All other men are created with physical bodies that are subject to death and able to die. We were not created the same (as Adam and Eve) and I do not know how to reconcile this fact with scripture. And exactly what is the image and likeness of G-d and what is not in the image and likeness of G-d except to understand that our mortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of G-d the Father’s glorious immortal physical body in the same way the Adam and Eve’s amortal physical bodies are similar to and a model of the Father’s. Any other explanation of image and likeness makes no sense at all because some men live good and upright lives and some don’t and I have to believe it is not because of G-d or anything G-d has ever done or will do including his creation of man in his image and likeness. The choice is man’s and man’s alone to live good and upright or not and G-d did not create that part of man that makes that choice - G-d is not responsible in any way for man making the choice beyond G-d enticing each individual man to chose the good and upright and Satan enticing each individual man to reject the good and upright. The final point concerns G-d being the creator and man being a different “created” species. I do not see things in this manner. G-d the Father is an everlasting being. He was not part of the creation (beginning) of this universe - he was an everlasting being before this universe was begun or created. I believe that it is the destiny of man to be resurrected to everlasting life that is everlasting in every sense of understanding as G-d’s life is everlasting. I also believe to deny this great truth is the essence of denying the Christ and his mission and atonement. The Traveler

PC: I know I asked a lot of questions and I do thank you for trying to answer. Rather than go back through all my questions for shallow answers lets consider just the answere above and try to get some clearity. It is obvious to me that some of G-d's human creations are more good and upright than others. Lets look at this step by step and try to get a clear perspective of exactly where it is Trinitarians differ from us members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS or Mormons). 1. Was all man created equally good and upright or was that just Adam? I know about the creation of Adam and Eve and I know what happened when they fell. Can you show clearly in scripture how Adam's "image" was distorted - then how G-d's immage was restored by Adam's rebirth. If rebirth is important for and to Adam how come the scriptures do not mention it for 4,000 years? I find no reference in scripture that the image of Adam was changed or that he was reborn. I find no reference that more of G-d's image was created in some than others. Why then is there a difference in the uprightness of men? I know how LDS handel this - I just trying to get a grip on how Trinitarians explain it by scripture or where it is they come up with the answer. 2. The scriptures say "Man" was created in the image of G-d; not just Adam. Does this mean then that all men created prior to the fall and then "distorted" when Adam and Eve fell? Or does it mean that all men created after the fall are not created in the image of G-d but in some other image? If, for example, you were created after the fall; how is it that you are distorted by the Fall? Especially since it was not your fall? and were you born in the image of G-d or did that not occure until you were reborn? Can you support your concepts with scripture? or are we guessing and making up answers? 3. It is obvious that not all men are the same as farr as good and upright. It is also obvious to me that not all Christians that claim to be born again are good and upright. It is also obvious to me that many non-Christians are good and upright. Is this because they are what G-d created them to be what they are or has the fall had slightly different effects of some people? One last thing you said that really bothers me (I would not bring this up because I do now want to wander all over the place with our discussion but this one reall causes a lot of confusion): I do not know what you mean by species - the scriptures do not talk about that (as near as I can determine the concept of species is 100% a human notion) - but scriptures do talk about his image. We know his image can be created and that only man is that image. Is there anything else in heaven in the image of G-d? What of G-d is beyond his image (not included in his image)? and where does the concept come that there is something beyond his image?The Traveler

PC: There are a couple of concepts and ideas that confuse the (heaven?) out of me when it comes to discussions of G-d, persons, the G-dhead and the Trinity based on the doctrine of the Trinity. First: What is a person? Is a human a person? How about a dog - is a dog a person? Can a person have multi personalities or is a personality a person all by itself? Can a dog have the same personality as a human? Please note that person is a part of the word personality. Can a human ever be more than one person? Can you? Is a spirit a person? Is each individual unclean spirit angel that followed Satan a separate person? If a human has more than one spirit present in their physical body are they one person are many persons? If a human has more than one person (personality) can one person go to heaven and the other person go to Hell? If a human can be divided by their persons - which person is the real human and defines the human? Second: What is a G-d? If a G-d is defined by what they do then are they not a G-d if they have not done it yet? For example: If we say G-d is the creator - does this mean that G-d did not exist prior to creation? If G-d is not defined by what he has done or what he will do - then what is G-d? If we define G-d by qualities is any one that possesses those qualities a G-d? Third: What is the Trinity? Is it one being possessed by three spirit being persons? Is it a title given to 3 unique different persons that get along really well? What is the difference between the persons - what according to scripture distinguishes the 3 persons of the Trinity that makes them unique and not the same "one"? If man was created in the "image" and "likeness" of the persons that as individual persons are not G-d but together are G-d - what then is the difference between the person of man and the persons that are G-d? If man in his person becomes "one" with the persons that are G-d then are we (man), with them as one (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost), G-d? To be honest the Trinity confuses me and makes no real sense when I try to visualize what it is and how it applies to real things that I do understand that make real sense. If the Trinity is this unknowable thing that does not, nor can, make any real sense - why do Trinitarians try make sense of it to us non-Trinitarian types or even themselves? Every time I have a discussion with a Trinitarian about G-d, I carefully ponder their comments and wonder if they really have any ideas that make sense to them and really believe what they are talking about or just say stuff they have memorized that makes no sense to them either but they have to say something to stay in the discussion and appear knowledgeable? I do not necessarily intend to criticize - I just do not get it. The Traveler Waite a minute. Was man (meaning everybody) created equally good and upright or was that just Adam; the only one or is some created good and upright and some not? The Traveler

I have read some but not all the posts in this thread - There is a lot of good advice about not putting up with abuse. Sometime ago I had a problem in my home with some in-laws at a family get together. I responded that certain things were not allowed in our home and that if they insisted on doing them they would have to leave. My sister in law responded that I could not make her leave and if I touched her she would sue me. I then went to the phone and called 911 and asked for the police to come to my home and remove a unwanted person before there was violence. My sister in law, is in her heart a wonderful person but is bipolar and requires meds. Some of the in laws were upset and felt I was too harsh. However, I have never had a problem with the bipolar sister in law even when she is not taking her meds. I am one of the few she will not cross. We get along very well now. I would add one other thought. Often individuals are influenced by unclean spirits. For some reason we modern people think we can solve all personality problems with meds and do not consider the influence of unclean spirits to be a problem. Protecting yourself from abuse is not giving up on your children. Making it clear where they cannot cross boundaries is not giving up on them. The Traveler

can you talk more about that idea? Where is is found? What does it mean?Thanks, Dr. T This is in the "Standard Works" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - which are not exactly canon in that one could argue meet some of the definition of canon but not all. Doctrine And Covenants: 27:11 107:54 128:21 The Traveler

Thanks for your opinion - I will add one other thought. It is my opinion that G-d invested a great deal of divine effort over an important period of time - significant enough that in scripture it is called days. Perhaps he could have done it quicker or in some other manner but I am impressed that G-d is invested in the creation. I believe a main message from the scripture that is overlooked in these kind of debates is what an act of love and compassion is manifested in the G-dly effort of creation. The Traveler

Here is one of my pearls. As a teenager I knew and had a personal relationship with Apostle Hugh B Brown. I was able to often converse with him in informal settings. It was my goal to "stump" him with a gospel related question. One day I though I had him for sure. I had caught my bishop doing something he should not have done. I had caught him in the very act. The problem was that no one knew but me. The bishop did not know I saw him and that I knew he had done wrong. I was not sure what I should do. So I asked Pres. Brown, "Do you support your bishop even if you know that he is wrong?" I was quite surprised by Pres. Brown's answer - he paused for a long time looking me straight in my eyes, then very sternly he said to me, "Young man you support your bishop --- especially if you know he is wrong because he needs your support more then than he does at any other time!" The Traveler Just a note: Once you have repented which includes a covenant - you are as pure and clean and wonderful as someone that has never commited the sin. Sometimes the hardest part of repentance is forgiving yourself so that you can move forward in your covenant. Perhaps it is time you let your heart forget some things in your past. We all have such things that need forgetting. The Traveler

Forgiveness like any thing takes practice if one is to get good at it. Any worth while thing takes effort and practice. No one plays music because they were converted one afternoon at 3:25. It is usually best to start practice with the more easy stuff and work your way up the the difficult stuff. The more you practice the better you will get. Jesus called his followers disciples which has the same root meaning as discipline. The concept of discipline is much in line with the efforts of practice. We discipline ourselves by repeatedly doing a thing. It has always been confusing to me those that indicate effort, practice and discipline are not necessary in preparing our character (soil) to live according to G-d will (seed). The Traveler

A thought about health care in the USA. I find it most odd that in the United States our Health Care industry does not want to deal with any one that intends to pay their own bill. Think about that and see if you can tell me why? The Traveler

The mistake we made with Canada was to draw the border in the wrong place. It should have gone North and South instead of East and West. :) The Traveler

There have been several modern and ancient experiments in socialism. Communism is one of the more popular ones but many people forget the Hitler was a socialist. Some claim that Hitler was the extreme Right but that is not true he was in every definition a socialist. Because Hitler was also and nationalist (a believer in a superior race and society - white, blond hair blue eye and German) many admitted socialist have tried to pass him off as "Right Wing" but Hitler was not a capitalist and sought for social orders within government and social controls of the masses. I do not support social programs. Even Social Security in our country. The reason is that it is such a failure. From an audit of Social Security during the Reagan years revealed that less than half of the monies collected as Social Security has ever been spent in the Social Security program. One of the biggest uses was for “black” opps for the CIA. Of the monies maintained in Social Security 60% is spent on bureaucracy and 40% ever reaches any citizen in the form of help. How stupid is that. A good way to know when a government program is social and has failed, is when it needs more money (percent of money collected or a greater percent of citizen’s money) to survive. The Traveler

I do not usually respond to post like this but I thought I would this one. I am not one that you could have offended - I doubt I have responded to any of your previous post. What caught my eye in your post is your severe dyslexia. I have mild dyslexia and did not discover it until years out of college. I happened to be reading a magazine on a plane when the lady next to me asked if I was reading the magazine backwards. I responded - not really but I could spot important points faster that way. As it turned out she was an expert in dyslexia. Although I tend to organize my thought differently than most, my spelling is uncivilized and sometimes my logic can appear to be confusing I have learned that for me dyslexia is an tremendous advantage. It is like being color blind and able to spot camouflage . If for any reason you intended to offend someone or just to get even then I think your apology is well advised. If not then your apology just means that you are an exceptionally kind and caring person. Now that we have the good stuff out of the way - I look forward to getting down to the nuts and bolts of ideas with you. Especially with the understanding that you have the ability to see things differently in a manner that few others can. The Traveler

There have been a number of excellent post about science and religion. Snow and Apostle Knight both posted some good stuff that I do not think I want to add to - it was good enough. As to the question of intelligent design. It is a good idea that has run amok, in that it has become an attempt to bring back creationism under a different name. It is given as a "Christian" alternative to science. My post to to point out that creationism and intelligent design is not science, and is a bad attempt to replace science or if you get right down to it - It just ain't science and has no place in any class room. I see nothing in current scientific theory that prohibits an intelligent belief in G-d. Those that attempt to define things that do not need new definition make a mistake as far as I am concerned. The Traveler

PC: I have not read all the post but I have had some personal experience while attending church in foreign lands. As I have traveled, there have been times that I have sat in a meeting and understood a foreign tongue with which I have no experience. I have also been able to communicate with someone where we had no common language. However, this has been the exception rather than the rule. It has never been something that appeared to be extraordinary. I doubt that most people attending were even aware of what happened. The Traveler

It is my opinion that this cartoon commentary is neither serious or historically accurate concerning immigration. History records many violent clashes when immigration is not gradual and controlled. Usually resulting in war and the building of generations of hatred. Once the United States of America was established as a unique world culture, immigration was controlled for some time that resulted in what was called a melting pot of culture. This was not entirely true because most of the immigration was from Western Europe giving the country a link to European culture. The native American culture has been destroyed and will likely not endure many more generations. Already 90% of the native languages have been lost - forever. We could have done much better. It is my personal opinion that we would be better to assimilate all of Mexico (as several states) than it would be to continue the current immigration chaos. It is estimated that 80% of Mexicans plan to come to the United States to live. Why not put that up for a vote in Mexico. Currently most of (over 50%) of government subsidies are for illegal immigrants. Over 50% of our crime is related to illegal immigrants and over 50% of our students below standards are from illegal immigrant families. We have a very liberal legal immigrant policy. In all the debates over immigration I have not heard one argument that our efforts to maintain security for our citizens and other issues are not addressed with current law. Why do we allow any illegal immigration? We do not need to change any laws to allow foreign workers in any industry. All that is needed is that it is shown there are workers needed and that there are foreign workers that are willing to work. I do not understand why we have allowed illegal workers. Except we have passed wage laws that if we use illegal workers we do not have to meet. Why do we allow our government to turn this in to such chaos. The Traveler

I am one of those Mormons that does not drink soft drinks with caffeine. I will not go into the fine reasons - I do not care to argue the points or put any one down that drinks soft drinks with caffeine. I am the only member of my family that does not drink caffeine drinks. What is really funny about this is when ever there is a company party and they ask about drinks I ask for plenty of soft drinks without caffeine or soda. They always break down and order a few - just for me but every body else says they do not want them. Come the party it is always my soft drinks without caffeine or soda that go first - often they are gone before I get any. I always make fun about people that make fun of my choice of drinks and then perfer mine over theirs. If you perfer other drinks then by $$###$@@# drink yours and leave mine alone. The Traveler

I do try to listen to the spirit. The same with many posts. If I am not touched by the spirit to do anything - usually I don't. Sometimes I take things on myself thinking my vast intelligence can make a difference and regret it later. The Traveler

I agree with your assessment of G-d being I would add one more thought to your assessment. That is - that each of us will end up in eternity exactly where we want and desire to be. Life is but experience to assist us in understanding (by experimental trial) what exactly it is that we want and desire. The concept of second chance is misleading. The truth is we all have opportunity to experience "Good" and "Evil". I believe that based on our experience we will determine by our experience of sacrifice what it is we truly desire. Therefore G-d is also loving in that he gives us all and as individuals what we desire most. You can trust him. The Traveler

Umm.. I am just curious... on the list that was given, what orginizations do not provide love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control? Good question - may I ask another question associated with this? When the Christian organizations of history took Christian thought to Northern Europe why did they murder (mass murder on a large scale) more men women and children than the Black Plauge? When Christian organizations came to the America and there were 40,000,000 native americans - why did they lovingly reduce them to less than 4,000,000 today and why did the completly exterminate the peaceful and open Lakaya (that would not convert to Christianity) - Every man woman and child. Whay did loving and kind Christian organizations not pass a law (until 1649) to end the murder of people of other religions that did not agree with the current Christian organization in power. And why did that law not include any religion that was not Trinitarian? The Traveler

What do you mean that Jesus would be "a fraud"? and there would be no need for redemption by the Messiah?Thanks, Dr. T Jesus said that he is "the way" meaning the way to the tree of life (the Father's love). Jesus said that no man comes unto the father but by him. If man can "come" unto the same G-d before and after the fall (for anything) then a Mediator is not necessary. If fallen man can access the same G-d as before the fall (as for Moses, Abraham and others) - then there is no need for redemption of sin to come unto G-d. A mediator or redemption is therefore not necessary - what then is the need for a Messiah or a mediator if a man has access to the same G-d before and after the fall? The doctrine of Messiah, savior and mediator because a lie. The Traveler

Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them". I would point to some fruits such as: 1. Our welfare program 2. Fast offerings 3. Young men (and women) that pay for their own missions. 4. Relief Society 5. Organizations that does not depend on pagan education rituals for it structural placements. 6. Every member given callings of service. 7. Home teaching 8. Visiting teaching 9. Young men service projects 10. Young women service projects. 11. Temple service (sacrifice). 12. Tithing service 13. Soberness (lack of public drunkenness). 14. Willingness to be obedient to G-d's commands through his servants. 15. Oneness in Sunday worship. 16. Oneness in doctrine. (anywhere you go in the world you will find LDS Sunday worship of one heart and one mind). 17. Fasting at least once a month 18. Family home evenings (in general the focus on the family - see proclamation to the world). 19. Individual and Family prayer. 20. Individual and Family scripture study. 21. Vast world missionary effort. 22. World relief programs. 23. Real and effective self help programs 24. Love and Care for every member - even those that do not attend on Sunday or pay offerings. 24. Social Services (to encourage adoption over abortion) To be honest I have not found a religious organization with near the vast variety of good fruits. Some, like the Salvation Army have service programs for certain sectors but none with the vastness and variety of good fruits. The Traveler

That is a good question. I believe that we are physically close to Jesus, but I'm unsure about God the Father. Again, it is personal reasons why I believe this so I won't go into details as to why. L.H. This is a no brainier for a Christian (me). Man is fallen from G-d (the Father) - both physically and spiritually. The only (ONE) G-d a fallen person can be "close" to is the Mediator, Jesus The Christ (who acts in the name of G-d the Father). If this is not true then Jesus is a fraud and there is no need for redemption of sins by a Messiah in order to come unto G-d the Father - or the G-d that was the G-d of heaven prior to the fall. The Traveler

Part of the problem with these kinds of theories is that they are dependent on English versions that are not really translations of ancient documents. A variant reading of Genesis could read " When G-d first covenanted with man". Rather than "In the beginning". Also what is translated as a "day" of creation could also be translated as "during the first period". Days on earth are counted in rotations of the earth. One complete rotation we call a day. There is no reason that I can think of to define creation based on the rotation of the earth - especially since our galaxy, solar system, and earth is a secondary creation. That is, the earth has heavy medals which could not have been created in our current solar system and thus part of our solar system was created from the destruction of star other than our sun. I have tried to advise you - if you desire to learn of science - seek out someone successful (expert) in science. I suggest you stop by your local library or Amazon.com and get a recent book on Cosmology. Be sure to get something after 1998. There have been some rather interesting discovers since then. And just for your information - the Big Bang is a nifty theory but there are major problems - never-the-less it is the best theory on the table for now. The religious theories of science have seldom lasted even 50 years - there is far to much speculation - and with your desire to dig up alternate ideas - I doubt you will find any real science books to support the religious speculation you are enjoying. I wish you well in your “research” especially if you ever attend a university with a respected science program. The Traveler

(1) The proof that electrons exist are that you can see what they do, also, electrons are just a theory, (although I know of no one who dissagrees) If tomorrow some new evidence pointed towards no electrons...it would be accepted. (2) You say you have never heard someone say "prove to me that electrons exist before I will allow anything electrical to be installed in my home" If a large segment of the scientific community said that these "electrical" things were harmful, would you reseach it before you allowed it in your home? All in all your "electron" analogy is severly flawed. Josh B) You may think that my electron analogy is severly flawed. But a lot of what you were taught in school about electrons is simply not true - maybe most of what you were taught. So much so that I doubt you can accuratly discribe to me what an electron is and why it behaves that way it does. If you know how an electorn behaves. I would also point out the Edison believed that alternating current (electrons) was far to dangerious for domestic use and many scientest signed on to Edison. Can you tell me why he thought alternating current to be dangerious? Do you care that no one teaches of the danger Edison warned about? Do you have a garbage disposal in your home with a switch to turn it on near the sink? How much have you researched electons? This appears to me to be a double standard on your part - especially in light of your arguments concerning the Mormons. Every source of information has a bias. Those that fail at anything have a bias very different than those that are successful. I have yet to hear a good argument for considering the bias of a failuer over the bias of someone that is successful. The Traveler