non-mormon vs. anti-mormon

[LegendadryPerc]

I'm new here, and maybe it is something this board is OK with. I'm not sure anybody has really crossed the line, and maybe I should read the guidelines better, but is there respect of religion here? I know there are (or seems to be) many people here whose beliefs are similar to the main LDS church, but who aren't members of it, or don't quite believe it all, etc. Given that most people on here understand the basic doctrine of the main LDS church, I can understand how explaining ones beliefs can be easier by just saying what about the main LDS church one doesn't believe. My concern is if this ever crosses the line, and becomes people saying what other people truly believe is "wrong". I love hearing testimonies of what people know is true, but find it offensive, whether I personally have a belief or not, when people tell others that their beliefs or part thereof, are wrong. For example (hope this is OK) someone on here said they believe we should rest on Saturday. I love hearing other's beliefs and ideas like this. However, if this person would have said, it is wrong to rest on Sunday, or worse, you guys are wrong to rest on Sunday, it would have felt worse than a pesonal attack, it would have been an attack on people's beliefs.

This is not just about the mormon church's beliefs. But thought I would bring the subject up as such, as this is a "mormonish" board. But other's beliefs can be ridiculed as well. I apologize if this is part of the purpose of the board, to investigate how beliefs can be wrong. I love a good "discussion" about doctrine and how individuals define it, but I truly find it important how points are phrased. However, blantant attacks on beliefs are very offensive to me. If I want to know "why" a belief or "the church" or Any church is wrong - I am sure I can look up many anti-LDS or anti-(add belief here) websites. Just like if I want to see pornography, I can look that up. I don't need to accidentally come across it on a religious board.

Like I said, I am new here, and am not sure this line has even been crossed. I guess I'm just curious before I end up reading something offensive, what the purpose of this board is.

Thanks.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I don't think anything that is blatantly anti-Mormon would be permitted to remain on the forum. The moderators are usually pretty hot on editing and removing things like that. I think the same should also apply if it's anti-anything. We can air our views and discuss different beliefs without becoming offensive about someone who believes something different to our own beliefs.

The only time I feel there could be a problem is when members disagree with something which is taught by church leaders. They really should make it clear that it's a personal opinion and they know they are going against the official church line. I don't know where the forum stands on that. We have come close to it several times and the discussions been allowed to remain, perhaps because there is a moderator within the thread who has/shares the unofficial viewpoint.

On the other hand if we don't have and use our own minds we get accused of being brainwashed.

[Elphaba]

I'm new here, and maybe it is something this board is OK with. I'm not sure anybody has really crossed the line, and maybe I should read the guidelines better, but is there respect of religion here? I know there are (or seems to be) many people here whose beliefs are similar to the main LDS church, but who aren't members of it, or don't quite believe it all, etc.

I am an atheist, and have been on the board for a year now. So that should tell you something.

Of course there are those who do not respect my beliefs, but this is, after all, a LDS board. The worst are those who tell me I "choose" what to believe. This isn't true, but I doubt they will ever be convinced.

C'est la vie.

Elphaba

[Guest Username-Removed]

LP,

There are indeed attacks on personal testimony here. There are many people, even some (at least one) moderator I really wonder about. They are not LDS, and do attack testimonies at will. I suppose that's the difference. Most members of the church do not attack others. In fact, most members are quite tollerant of other's beliefs. The fact that we put up with non-lds people's attacks on an LDS board perhaps proves at least one point - we are indeed Christian.

I dont view this board as home. It's not a place where I go to recover, recharge, and get closer to the Lord. Not at all. How could it be? Its simply too close to others that may or may not have any genuine interest in LDS beliefs or doctrine. The non-members here range from those that are simply curious about LDS beliefs, to others that are filled with hate that attack others at every post. In many ways, this board is much like the world.

The only true place one can recharge one's spirit is in the home or in the temple. This board can be viewed as a missionary effort with all the good things and bad things that go along with it!

My testimony: It is true. God lives and is an intregal part of my life. I know that he lives because he inspires me to do the right thing that benefits others, me and him. The connection that I have with my Heavenly Father is stronger when I do the right things, and less when I dont. I know this to be true because I havent always been active in my life and I know the difference between the connection when I am.

[Maya]

I am from Norway and I correspond in 3 languages, finnish, english and norwegean. I am an LDS convert from 30 years or so... my background is in a board where my religion and its leaders were pulled trough mud frequently, even though the board was called mormonism... I have noticed that there are people who are in such pain inside for one or another reason, that they just have to spread their vomiting. If there is not anything they find to pick in your religion they pick on you personally. I have learned to ignore that. This kind of behavour is very little on this board.

There is aso the little sighn ! where you can klick to inform the mods about your opinion of something that was not suitable. Moderating a site like this is very difficult. There should be place to dissagree, be fustrated but no tolerance for hate or bullying.

One thing that sometimes is very difficult for our opponents is to agree taht we disagree and leave it there.... instead we often are said not to answer, mot to know the real answer... and such.

I been in many different sites and this is absolutely the best site where I been, the safest palce for any religion. I hope that even though our cases can be against one an other we remain frends here everyone.

I know I may sometimes be too stright, things could be said with much more cotton around them, even with a pink ribbon around... anyway I come short with both language and time.

World flood I am sorry you feel that way, maybe you too need some cotton..

Anyway one of my personal rules is dont argue. Argueing never builds, that is why the opponents use it often and call it "disusition" to make us feel bad as we dont want to answer.

I hope you find what you are looking for here.:)

[Guest Username-Removed]

World flood I am sorry you feel that way, maybe you too need some cotton..

That's ok Mailis, The world is just what we make of it. Another reason why I am here. I have plenty of cotton, being hard of hearing also has its benefits!

[DigitalShadow]

Yes, there are people on this board who will tell you that they are right and you are unconditionally wrong, but I find there are just as many of those who are LDS as non-LDS. Having respect for your fellow man and being able to disagree without being disrespectful is not affected by beliefs, it is more a quality of the person rather than a quality of any particular religion.

[Truegrits]

Having respect for your fellow man and being able to disagree without being disrespectful is not affected by beliefs, it is more a quality of the person rather than a quality of any particular religion.

I agree. The way in which one responds to most situations, reflects the character of the person. Ones character is the impetus to how they handle most, if not all, situations. IMO.

[prisonchaplain]

I've been here since oct. 2005, and am not LDS. And yes, I am a moderator. I enjoy the mostly civil, and often intelligent conversations here. Those truly hostile to your church do not stay here long. They come, they flame, then they disappear. The regulars, LDS and not, are mostly respectful, but sometimes passionate about their perspectives.

Wordflood is right, that this is no substitute for live communion with God or his people. Some do develop personal friendships here. However, the place for unfettered faith-affirming fellowship and worship is the household of faith. Nevertheless, most of the LDS posters I've seen stay around, seem to gain encouragement and knowledge here. BTW, the same is true for the non-LDS who stay for the long-haul.

[Maureen]

WordFLOOD said:

There are indeed attacks on personal testimony here. There are many people, even some (at least one) moderator I really wonder about. They are not LDS, and do attack testimonies at will.

If you do find a post that is disrespectful, you can report the post. The button at the top right - I think it's an exclamation mark.M.

[Guest Username-Removed]

WordFLOOD said:If you do find a post that is disrespectful, you can report the post. The button at the top right - I think it's an exclamation mark.M.

I Did that. :) I got no response on that one. The problem is, if a moderator is doing the attacking, it makes it difficult to run it up the tree. Knowing that, I also sent a PM to a particular moderator, and I still got no response. I realize mistakes can happen. But the more they happen, the more it's simply telling me that my expectations were incorrectly set in the first place. That's nobody's fault but my own. I enjoy my participation here. Im not saying this is a bad place, but really not much higher quality than any other forum out there. It is what it is. Its a shame that 5 or 6 people are so hateful as to keep this from being what it could be. I realize that moderating is tough, Ive had my own forum for years and understand the responsibility. I also understand that mods dont want to hurt their own reputation by banning too much. However, I dont agree with how this is run as it is. That's ok, we all dont have to agree! I often think I would like to donate to this website, but I just cant do it because of the things Ive seen. It wouldnt take much for me to stop posting alltogether, since I'm on the edge already. In fact, the last time I stopped posting on this forum I left for nearly 8 months.

For now, I'll post, and I will continue to keep my expectations low. Like I said before, this place is the world. I have made good friends here, and there are people I do indeed care about. When the forum becomes a detrement and a liability in my life, thats when I'll stop posting. Until then, I'm still here.

[Snow]

I'm new here, and maybe it is something this board is OK with. I'm not sure anybody has really crossed the line, and maybe I should read the guidelines better, but is there respect of religion here? I know there are (or seems to be) many people here whose beliefs are similar to the main LDS church, but who aren't members of it, or don't quite believe it all, etc. Given that most people on here understand the basic doctrine of the main LDS church, I can understand how explaining ones beliefs can be easier by just saying what about the main LDS church one doesn't believe. My concern is if this ever crosses the line, and becomes people saying what other people truly believe is "wrong". I love hearing testimonies of what people know is true, but find it offensive, whether I personally have a belief or not, when people tell others that their beliefs or part thereof, are wrong. For example (hope this is OK) someone on here said they believe we should rest on Saturday. I love hearing other's beliefs and ideas like this. However, if this person would have said, it is wrong to rest on Sunday, or worse, you guys are wrong to rest on Sunday, it would have felt worse than a pesonal attack, it would have been an attack on people's beliefs.

This is not just about the mormon church's beliefs. But thought I would bring the subject up as such, as this is a "mormonish" board. But other's beliefs can be ridiculed as well. I apologize if this is part of the purpose of the board, to investigate how beliefs can be wrong. I love a good "discussion" about doctrine and how individuals define it, but I truly find it important how points are phrased. However, blantant attacks on beliefs are very offensive to me. If I want to know "why" a belief or "the church" or Any church is wrong - I am sure I can look up many anti-LDS or anti-(add belief here) websites. Just like if I want to see pornography, I can look that up. I don't need to accidentally come across it on a religious board.

Like I said, I am new here, and am not sure this line has even been crossed. I guess I'm just curious before I end up reading something offensive, what the purpose of this board is.

Thanks.

LegendadryPerc,

The board serves a variety of purposes for a variety of posters.

Some people post here simply to be social and make friends. Other people post to share their testimony. Other people post here because they like to debate. I post here mainly because it serves to motivate learning.... there will be a topic, that turns into a discussion, the discussion turns into a debate and when you are in a debate, you have research your position and the contrary position and so, you learn something.

I can't imagine that you would get too many folks that would fight with you over which day should be a day of rest but anytime you take a position on a controversial topic, there will likely be someone who will disagree with you... though on balance, probably the majority of people don't debate and carry on with argumentation, and/or stay away from controversial topics. For example, if you say, in talking about the scriptures, that the bible says the earth is only 7000 or so years old, you will likely be challenged by those that know that the earth is more like 4.5 billion years old. Others couldn't care less about the age of the earth.

You should know that, as I said, there are all sorts of people here. Some of the discussion is uplifting and inspirational, some of it is silly and entertaining, some of it is robust and challenging. If you participate in some discussions, you will likely learn things you didn't know before. That is usually good but sometimes can be a challenge. I've learned that my understanding of the world (when I was your age) was not a very accurate and informed understanding of the world (the religious world). It's sometimes hard to make sense of new things that contradict the way you think things are suppose to be.

Something to keep in mind on the internet... you can't take things too personally. Other people have opinions that may differ from your own; they may be right or you may be right. Either way, they have no power over you to make you feel good or bad. You, not others, are responsible for what you believe and how you feel about what others think, do or say. We are all agents unto ourselves.

Welcome and happy posting.

PS: I've been here a long time. My testimony and love of the gospel and of the Church is stronger and more wonderful than ever. I've learned more about the gospel in the last number years than ever before and this message board (and it's forerunner LDSTalk) is one of the biggest causes of that. It's one of the very best message boards I've ever posted on... on balance, probably the best.

Don't be bashful...

[Snow]

WordFLOOD said:If you do find a post that is disrespectful, you can report the post. The button at the top right - I think it's an exclamation mark.M.

Hi Maureen,

How have you been? I don't see your posts as often as I use to.

[LegendadryPerc]

Oh, I love debate. Trying to find a way to define "attacks" vs. "debate". I think it is phrases like "You believe..." or "You are wrong to believe..." that seem like attacks.

My "home" is a board where there are few Christians, and I'm definantly the only LDS. We have wonderful respectful and insightful religious conversations. I have no illusions that this board will be more respectful than any other "because it's LDS". I guess I haven't been to many boards other than my safe home board. I wonder if being specifically a religious board, like being called after a specific religion, atracts people who feel religion is a battle ground?

I just recently skimmed the "is grace enough" thread. The line is definantly crossed there. Making fun of preachers, saying we know they are in it for the money because they are on tv, etc., telling LDS people that they believe in a different Jesus because of ones interpretation of what leaders have said (like if I read a religious book from another church, and then told people in that church what they believed ), specific comments making fun of posters.... I guess I'm curious if this is the norm. If it is, is it likely to change? Does anybody want it to change? (If this is what the board is meant to be, I guess I have no right to come and demand you all have a board how I would like it.) Now, I absolutely love the debate and discussion on that thread about grace. Very insightful information and nice to dig into it. But does anybody else see a clear difference between debating grace vs. works, and steryotyping TV preachers? I can testify of grace or works all day, without saying other's opinions on it are "bad", and especially without saying that those who hold those opinions are "wrong" or accusing them of other things I percieve as bad.

oh, on the age... I tend to make up birth dates (including years) when I sign up for internet accounts. Don't like putting personal info like that "out there" for some reason. So I don't know if I'm older or younger than I said, lol.

[WANDERER]

Sometimes I'm not sure what to make of a particular thread or post. People are people and all individuals and respond to issues differently depending on their experience base and understandings. Words may not reflect intentions. Misunderstandings happen. People generally mean well. There's a good deal of diversity amongst LDS and non-LDS and that creates interesting challenges.

There's definitely a few colourful personalities that make up the community, and ummmm, a slight bit of friction here and there. Sometimes the more robust threads are quite thought-provoking. Sometimes the gentlest threads hold great insight. As a non-LDS I find there is mostly a calmness to the forums; a gentle turning of threads by moderaters and forum members here and there without a feeling of intrusiveness or squelching of dialogue and that it's a good place to think.

Edited June 10, 2008 by WANDERER

[Maureen]

Snow said:

Hi Maureen,How have you been? I don't see your posts as often as I use to.

Hi Snow, I am fine. I can't really post at work, since my computer doesn't cooperate well with quoting and such, so I do my type of posting to try and fool my computer. I do post at home though. This board is so much bigger now, than LDStalk ever was. You know there were times at LDStalk when conversations were slow - but here there's so much variety - there are definitely more posters and topics. I do post from time to time, but they probably get lost very quickly. How are you Snow?

[Snow]

Oh, I love debate. Trying to find a way to define "attacks" vs. "debate". I think it is phrases like "You believe..." or "You are wrong to believe..." that seem like attacks.

My "home" is a board where there are few Christians, and I'm definantly the only LDS. We have wonderful respectful and insightful religious conversations. I have no illusions that this board will be more respectful than any other "because it's LDS". I guess I haven't been to many boards other than my safe home board. I wonder if being specifically a religious board, like being called after a specific religion, atracts people who feel religion is a battle ground?

I just recently skimmed the "is grace enough" thread. The line is definantly crossed there. Making fun of preachers, saying we know they are in it for the money because they are on tv, etc., telling LDS people that they believe in a different Jesus because of ones interpretation of what leaders have said (like if I read a religious book from another church, and then told people in that church what they believed ), specific comments making fun of posters.... I guess I'm curious if this is the norm. If it is, is it likely to change? Does anybody want it to change? (If this is what the board is meant to be, I guess I have no right to come and demand you all have a board how I would like it.) Now, I absolutely love the debate and discussion on that thread about grace. Very insightful information and nice to dig into it. But does anybody else see a clear difference between debating grace vs. works, and steryotyping TV preachers? I can testify of grace or works all day, without saying other's opinions on it are "bad", and especially without saying that those who hold those opinions are "wrong" or accusing them of other things I percieve as bad.

oh, on the age... I tend to make up birth dates (including years) when I sign up for internet accounts. Don't like putting personal info like that "out there" for some reason. So I don't know if I'm older or younger than I said, lol.

I guess I agree with you in principle but our practices may differ,

For example, there are TVangelists that are in it, demonstrably, for the money. There was one a number of years ago that would call random people out of the audience and pretend that God was inspiring him to know their name and their medical condition and then he would heal the person's condition. He actually had a hidden earpiece and his wife would tell him things secretly so he could pretend God inspired him. He was in it for the money. I don't mind saying that the guy was a fake. Unfortunately, even after getting caught, he has returned to the ministry. There are lots of others like him, people who become millionaires by praying on the sick, the lonely, the elderly and the stupid... and take their money.

As for those that say Mormons aren't Christian, etc. This is an LDS friendly site and so harsh rhetoric should be controlled but that doesn't mean debate, evenly lively debate should be stifled. I much rather win a debate by superior argumentation that by censorship. Still - simple trolling should be controlled.

When I discuss, debate, argue... if you are wrong - and I can demonstrate you are wrong - I will say: "WRONG" or if I think you (someone) is ill-intentioned I'll probably say: "FALSE," and then demonstrate how/why. Some people like my direct approach and many do not. Anyone who does not like it is free to not read it.

Anyway, I hope you have a good experience here.

[Snow]

Snow said:Hi Snow, I am fine. I can't really post at work, since my computer doesn't cooperate well with quoting and such, so I do my type of posting to try and fool my computer. I do post at home though. This board is so much bigger now, than LDStalk ever was. You know there were times at LDStalk when conversations were slow - but here there's so much variety - there are definitely more posters and topics. I do post from time to time, but they probably get lost very quickly. How are you Snow?

I am doing well.

Healthy and happy. My family is growing up. I work now for a Catholic Health Care Company that lines up pretty well with my LDS values. I rebuilt a house that is really nice - I have my own study with my computer, my TV, wall-to-wall books and research material... and my golf game has improved dramatically.

Life may not be perfect but it is balanced and rewarding. Thank you for asking.

[GoodK]

I think it is a bit demonstrative of a persecution complex that any sort of critcisim, scrutiny, or call for evidence is considered an "attack on your beliefs".

It is a red herring, a good way to avoid whatever the issue is.

[Islander]

My children think I'm loosing my mind. I am LOL when I am reading the posts. They are beginning to be concerned. My wife thinks I'm OK still..so I'm good for another month.

I do think we must grow a thicker skin. We do not have to respond ALL the time to EVERY inquiry or even what we perceive to be an "attack." Read the very early criticism and attacks on the prophet Joseph and Church. People keep asking the same old tired questions. These are late comers to the argument or disaffected individuals. We should provide them with a link to the BOM-FAQ and leave it at that.

At the end, we can not provide any more evidence about the BoM than Israel can provide about the temple of Solomon. There are plenty of people, actually billions, that claim that Israel's history is a complete fabrication and Western invention to create a foundation for Christianity.

If somebody has questions, be happy to answer or provide direction to potential answers. One desires to contend? Respectfully decline. It belittles the exchange, it denotes a lack of insight and respect, in my opinion and it serves no purpose. It also causes the Spirit of the Lord to withdraw. That should be enough to avoid the posturing.

Just my two cents.

[LegendadryPerc]

I think it is a bit demonstrative of a persecution complex that any sort of critcisim, scrutiny, or call for evidence is considered an "attack on your beliefs".

It is a red herring, a good way to avoid whatever the issue is.

How can you prove what you believe? What you think and feel inside? Your true intentions? These aren't things that evidence can resolve. These are personal fealings. I think you helped me define the "line", though. I love debating doctrine, but debating whether someone personally believes the doctrine, is crossing the line. Nobody but that person can know what s/he believes and feels. Maybe it is because this is a "mormon" board, it is asumed that all mormons believe and feel the same thing, and thus are answerable to however someone interprets our doctrine. I'm thinking maybe I notice this more, because I don't live in Utah, and am used to being seen as an individual with individual beliefs, not people questioning me simply because they assume what my beliefs are from what they know of mormons. Maybe some places this "persecution" is common place and you guys have learned how to deal with it.

Also, to clarify (in case I was misunderstood), I was using the example of worshipping on Saturday as a positive example, of a good way to discuss differences, without attacking anothers beliefs.

[GoodK]

I think I may have confused you, unless you just were quoting my post and not really responding it, or perhaps I misunderstand your post. Either way, let me say a few things.

First, I was speaking of a "persecution complex" - basically the attitude that some members display both on LDS discussion boards and in real life. I don't think members are persecuted, attacked, or treated with hostility 90% of the time they say they are. Some members seem to be conditioned to view any sort of criticism, disagreement, or the telling of a different version of Church history as anti-Mormon, an attack, persecution, etc... This is what I mean by a persecution complex. When someone, before even hearing or seeing an argument, begins to discredit it as anti-Mormon. That is what happened in the original post I replied to.

How can you prove what you believe? What you think and feel inside? Your true intentions? These aren't things that evidence can resolve.

Perhaps you can't prove to someone an actual feeling because feelings aren't tangible, but you can certainly prove how you feel with your actions. If you love your wife, you are likely to act in a way that other people, who don't love their wife do. But I don't really see how proving anything relates to my post that you responded to, but then again I'm guessing you might not have been responding specifically to my post.

These are personal fealings. I think you helped me define the "line", though. I love debating doctrine, but debating whether someone personally believes the doctrine, is crossing the line.

Did this happen on this thread, or are you speaking in generalities? I'm glad I helped you define something, although I'm not quite sure what itis. I agree, telling someone what they believe is like when EV's try and tell people who and who isn't a Christian.

[LegendadryPerc]

What original post?

Sorry about the confusion. I assumed your post was talking about what I was talking about - attacks on personal belief. So when you said that a call for evidence could wrongly be seen as persecution, I was saying that it was. Perfect example you gave - the whole "you can't call yourself Christian because.." thing. If, in a thread someone calls for evidence that you are Christian - that just feels wrong. Who are they to ever need to judge whether you are Christian or their definition of Christian or not? How would you ever "prove" that on the internet anyway? Like in the example I gave where someone was saying mormons worship a different Christ. To me, that is no different than saying black people worship a different Christ. Who can tell me who I worship? Only I know that deep in my heart. But, then, like I said, I grew up in environments that respected religious differences the same way I assume others respect cultural differences. Nobody would ever, ever, define another persons beliefs for him. No matter how much I have studies a religion, or even once was a member of it, I would not tell someone I knew what they believed better than they did themselves! Is this common other places? I have encountered it before, but not any more often than racism, nor did I take those who did it any more seriously than I take racist comments.

[Aphrodite]

If you went by the rules of this board then anything that doesnt completely and utterly 100% agree with the church is classed as an anti mormon.

Just what Ive observed so far on this site.....

[LegendadryPerc]

Thanks Aphrodite. I guess I should have read the rules before. I was scared they would be some long boring technical stuff, but the actual rules seem to be rather concise and make a lot of sence. It seems that on many potentially interesting threads, the vast majority of posts don't follow the rules. Kinda makes those threads no fun to reply to...

I appreciate administators not having a heavy hand. but should the rules be changed? Should we just go on ignoring them? Should we cry out for heavier administrator involvement? (I'd rather a different way) Is turning the discussions back towards the ideasl the rules outline, desired? If so, how can we do this?

thanks.

GoodK, after reading some other threads, and realizing which posts you have written, and which posts were written about you, the misunderstanding on this thread is completely understandable. You have persecution complex!