Does education destroy creativity?

[pam]

Are American schools increasingly authoritarian?

Let's see, there are schools banning tag for encouraging aggression, schools banning hugging as a form of sexual harassment, schools with "zero-tolerance" that have suspended students for bringing a knife to cut meat with at lunch, possessing tic-tacs since they can resemble drugs, encouraged teachers to review fictional writings to make sure they are not violent, sexist or racist, and sent kids home with suspensions for saying homosexuality is a sin during debates on current events.

Then of course there's the lack of emphasis on critical thinking and analysis...

I would have a problem with kids bringing knives to school to "cut meat." I've eaten many school lunches with my kids and have never seen anything that would need a knife.

[NateHowe]

If the American public schools are broken (which they are in some respects), the blame rests quite squarely on the shoulders of parents. In the past 25 years, the role of the school has shifted significantly. Once, schools were organized to help parents in raising children who could become educated, functional adult members of society. Now, because an increasing number of parents do not fulfill their roles, the schools have shifted to fill a position of surrogate parenthood. Parents who neglect to teach, discipline, or pay adequate attention to their children can send them to school for free breakfast, free lunch, and what amounts to free daycare. Where teachers could once expect parents to support their efforts, now they increasingly have to defend themselves in the threatening "why are you failing my kid?" argument.

As this paradigm shift has occurred, another trend has come into play: Government, through no child left behind and several state measures, has placed the pressure on teachers to teach only those things which can be measured by standardized testing. Thus, the teacher who chooses beneficial creativity development over cold facts is shown by the government's standards to be inadequate because the kids don't bubble the correct answer on a scan-tron.

Are there bad teachers? Of course. But don't look here when you're pointing fingers about lack of creativity. Bad teachers are the minority. The problems with education can be solved much more effectively within families around the dinner table than in a school staff meeting.

[checkerboy]

Simple solution is to privatize public education. Teachers salaries go up. Poor teacher performance will lead to dismisal. But the best thing about it will be getting governments greedy hands out of our pockets.

If you feel this is too drastic a step then at least consider getting the federal government out of education. It is honestly none of their business. I would even consider keeping state government out of the loop too but again most people would think that too drastic a move.

[NateHowe]

Simple solution is to privatize public education.

I would be in favor IF it was an across-the-board change. If some schools privatize while others remain public, it will exacerbate conflicts between social classes and promote elitism.

[pam]

If the American public schools are broken (which they are in some respects), the blame rests quite squarely on the shoulders of parents. In the past 25 years, the role of the school has shifted significantly. Once, schools were organized to help parents in raising children who could become educated, functional adult members of society. Now, because an increasing number of parents do not fulfill their roles, the schools have shifted to fill a position of surrogate parenthood. Parents who neglect to teach, discipline, or pay adequate attention to their children can send them to school for free breakfast, free lunch, and what amounts to free daycare. Where teachers could once expect parents to support their efforts, now they increasingly have to defend themselves in the threatening "why are you failing my kid?" argument.

As this paradigm shift has occurred, another trend has come into play: Government, through no child left behind and several state measures, has placed the pressure on teachers to teach only those things which can be measured by standardized testing. Thus, the teacher who chooses beneficial creativity development over cold facts is shown by the government's standards to be inadequate because the kids don't bubble the correct answer on a scan-tron.

Are there bad teachers? Of course. But don't look here when you're pointing fingers about lack of creativity. Bad teachers are the minority. The problems with education can be solved much more effectively within families around the dinner table than in a school staff meeting.

Amen Nate. You have hit the nail on the head in my opinion.

[prisonchaplain]

Simple solution is to privatize public education. Teachers salaries go up. Poor teacher performance will lead to dismisal. But the best thing about it will be getting governments greedy hands out of our pockets.

If you feel this is too drastic a step then at least consider getting the federal government out of education. It is honestly none of their business. I would even consider keeping state government out of the loop too but again most people would think that too drastic a move.

There was a time in my life when I would have agreed. However, we do need public schools, at least partially because some parents refuse to parent, and schools soften the blow of this. Yes, they are expensive and bureaucratic--but they are cheaper than prisons.

Oh, and there is no way that privatized schools would pay better than public ones. Even most elite schools offer humbler salary packages than public schools do.

[siouxz72]

sad but oh so true!

[RachelleDrew]

But many when talking about public education also place teachers under that umbrella. I see where mightynancy could get this. Having been a PTA President twice..I've sat in many meetings where people bash the public education system...and who do they turn to do this? The teachers. Many put blame on the teachers for their perceived or even insightful thoughts on public education.

So before we think mightynancy is being overly sensitive...put yourself in the shoes of the teachers who get the brunt of many of the complaints.

I'm aware that many people place the blame on teachers. But what i'm saying is, nobody here did such a thing. Therefore her overly-defensive post was unnecessary.

I have several teachers in my family, i'm not unsympathetic to their issues. Everyone in this thread thus far has placed the majority of the responsibility onto the parents of the students and the restrictions and laws of our government.

[mightynancy]

...when kids watch TV for "too long", they get this dazed glassy eyed look, seem uninvolved with the program, and ssem bored but continue to watch. I have noticed the exact same look on the faces of most public school kids.

There is always the carrot dangling of some 5 min. activity that is really really fun, but the majority of school time is boring. Taking the most creative and knowledge hungry years of ones life, and preventing learning...

Even the "education" part of it prevents learning, as it is so stuctured, and as has been mentioned, stuck on right answers, etc., that few oportunities are open for the kid to be free to just explore and learn about something.

Add to that NCLB, and even good creative teachers practically sit there in handcuffs, reduced to little more than puppets.

While law makers who have never and never will even ever see the kids, let alone know their unique talents and needs, direct the now robotic teachers, on exactly how to phrase the questions, "because that is how they will be asked on the test."

This child could be pushed over the line to passing, thus produce a "success" for the teacher and the school and the district. Students above 60 don't need the help, and students much below 40 require too much help, and truly do get left behind.

Creativity IN math and reading is discouraged (in the cases I've seen!) Math is taught to be something that is merely memorized and students are disciplined for reading books when they should be ummm... waiting in line?

Then of course there's the lack of emphasis on critical thinking and analysis...

(bolding mine - mightynancy)

Over-defensive isn't an apt term for what I'm feeling. Is there a single word or a short phrase that means "Wow! That stuff they're saying about me and my peers is totally untrue!"? What gets under my skin most is the broad brush/narrow mind misconception that teachers are willing to just throw up their hands and capitulate to Mr. NCLB. That we ditch the slow kids because they're going to hurt our score no matter how much help we give them, so why bother? It's all about the test scores, y'know. That we drill & kill (that's what we call it!) all day. That we get in the way of kids' learning. Who do you (y'all...not you, Rachelle) think we are?

I don't care enough about the above-quoted posters to truly feel defensive - I get my validation elsewhere. Being an educator, ignorance is something I like to stamp out, and it frustrates me when I am thwarted in the effort, that's all. I understand that there are lousy teachers and lousy administrators and probably entire districts that are lousy. I also know that they are the minority, and that the rest of us really do care about the students infinitely more than we care about test scores. Most of us agree with Yeats (though it's also attributed to Socrates) that education is not the filling of a vessel but the lighting of a fire.

[WANDERER]

LOL at expensive. Take one teacher's salary per week after tax (it should be online somewhere at your local rates) and divide it by the number of students. On Australian figures, it works out to $37 per child per week or the grand total of approximately $7.40 per day per child for 6 hours of education.

It's a fantastic job...but it's also very underfunded. People do not always realise this because figures are quoted in large scale amounts rather than what it amounts to for individual children.

I don't (try not to) take criticisms personally as we all want the best possible education for the kids. Accountability has to be there. But the reality is...poor quality teachers don't measure up to the test of thirty children, their parents and all the factors that the high level of criticism of teaching involves. Their life is hell and most do not stay in the teaching profession. The majority of teachers are intensely dedicated, work long hours and pour their heart into their job. Perhaps I am just lucky in terms of the quality of colleagues that I work with. The kids always come first.

Eeek at drill and kill...*wince*...I haven't heard that phrase before Nancy. I think it's going to be one that sticks in my head for a looong time.

[prisonchaplain]

If teachers are feeling blamed by some of the posts and phrases in this string, and in public discourse about education, then perhaps there is some broad-brush comments being made. And, indeed, teachers are the frontline face of the public education system. However, what I've gleaned from this discussion is that people are most frustrated with standardized testing, and with a rigid system that allows teachers, parents, students, and even administrators very little room for flexibility or discretion. There are stories almost daily of some seeming nonsensical decision (kid suspended for drug dealing because he gives his aspirin to his classmate, etc.). System says, "Sorry...zero tolerance...if we excuse this, we must excuse so many others--where would it lead to?"

I'm not sure there is a perfect answer, but a general doctrine that would help, imho, is to grant as much power, authority, discretion and decision-making at the most local level possible. Teachers should be empowered to teach and discipline. Principals should be able to innovate. Districts should not be brow-beat into complying with national programs (often unfunded), at the threat of losing basic education monies.

Teachers are heroes in my book. They are grossly underpaid, absolutely deserve their vacations, and above all, they are underpowered. We who call ourseves conservative blame teachers' unions for protecting bad teachers, but we invite such entities when we underfund and undervalue those we entrust to train up our children.

[mightynancy]

Sorry Wanderer! Drill & kill is what we call rote, uncreative, unfun "learning". There is a certain amount of drill that's necessary (memorizing multiplication tables, for example) but we make it fun with music and even dancing on occasion (clearly, I'm in elementary school!).

PC, I agree that the "system" makes things difficult...and the good teachers are rising to the challenge of reaching children in spite of obstacles. Good teachers see the difference between teaching content and teaching students. As far as I can see, the good teachers wish to see the bad ones out just as much as anyone else!

[Truegrits]

but we make it fun with music and even dancing on occasion (clearly, I'm in elementary school!).

:lol:

Good teachers see the difference between teaching content and teaching students. As far as I can see, the good teachers wish to see the bad ones out just as much as anyone else!

Not only is that the truth, but I would add that good teachers want the "bad" ones out MORE than anyone else!

[MikeUpton]

In my opinion that is a question that almost solely rests upon the shoulders of the person receiving the education. Yes, education can destroy creativity. But only if you allow it. If you are able to take things others say with a grain of salt, if you are able to think outside the box, if you are able to synthesize new understandings from rote learning, then education does not hinder creativity. it enhances it.

Blind acceptance of what others say is not a very useful education, and is often not education at all. Forming new meaning from old understanding, in my mind is the essence of creativity. I would actually say the truth is quite the opposite. A lack of education hinders creativity.

These understandings apply whether the education is learned in school, from mentors, or out on your own.

[pam]

Loved your comment..."A lack of education hinders creativity" I LOVE it.

[NateHowe]

For those who say privatization would be unprofitable, consider this scenario:

Let's say that for a better education, a parent is willing to pay babysitters' wages for their children to be in school. Minimum wage is $6.85. How about round that off - let's say a flat $5 per hour for a good education. If you tossed the kid in daycare instead of school, you would spend significantly more than that.

$5 per hour would work out to $30 per day (let's assume you pay for 6 hours of instruction, but not lunch or recess times). Based on a 180-day school year (which is about normal), that works out to $450 per month per student. For some, that may seem like a significant cost, but isn't it much cheaper than a babysitter?

OK, I know that's ridiculous. But let's assume that the government would provide tuition assistance in the form of vouchers, etc. Even if they chose to pay the whole tuition for every student, the annual $5400 would be much cheaper than the 2006 average of $9138 per student in the US.

In a K-8 private school of 500 students, $5 per hour for each student would yield an annual budget of $2,700,000. That doesn't include community donations or government help for the school. Let's say we limit class sizes to 25. In a school of 500, that would be 20 classes. That means a budget of $135,000 per year per classroom. That could pay every classroom teacher a $55,000 salary (well above the national average), give every classroom $2,000 per year for materials, and leave the school $1,560,000 per year for other expenses, like facilities and administration.

This is a basic survival scenario. If local businesses and community organizations would also chip in a bit (as they already do), the schools could be very affordable for parents and profitable for investors. Or, they could be very wealthy nonprofit organizations run in the same manner as corporations.

The concept is feasible.

[MikeUpton]

2 Nephi 9:42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

God does not hate the learned or the rich. He hates it when we have puffed up attitudes because we "know stuff" or "have stuff" because it hinders him from helping us to "do more stuff with our stuff" :)

[WANDERER]

There's very little 'drill and kill' going on at an elementary level (puzzles and games and so on). But I think that it may be a phrase for useful discussion in staff meetings...as we are moving towards the national standardised testing system within our schools and some aspects of this are a cause for concern.

I have found the discussion about educational reforms and quality rather interesting. I do see a difference between criticising the education system and the educators. Parents and community can be powerful influences on educational policy and the whole political aspect of schooling. With changes in government different educational reforms are pushed and old programs and their funding may become obsolete for entirely political reasons. This is the reality of the public education system and it is also a factor in government funding for private schools. Some of these iniatives produce wonderful results and some of them are complex issues.

With privatisation those agendas may become more corporate driven. The latest corporate response in the media was that the nation needed to increase teacher's wages to $135 000 to attract a higher standard of teachers. It's not economically viable (imagine the taxes) and I wasn't all that impressed with the concept that teachers who accept low wages are not 'attractive'. It's the whole 'you are what you are paid' element to it that seems to be a rather simplistic approach on how to improve education. (Not that I would say no to a wage like that, LOL, but the probability rate is rather low).

Teacher wages here are reasonable when looking at the annual rate (the pay scale stops at approximately $68 000 for senior teachers pre-tax, although newly trained teachers receive a fairly low amount). The average national wage is about $58 000. There is a high level of expectation that goes with that payscale. The real financial issue is the budgetting allocations for facilities and resources allocated to schools ($8000 for an average sized school for repairs and maintenance is a very low figure and fundraising is crucial...I count my pieces of chalk).

[MikeUpton]

I don't know much about the educational system, as you guys seem to. I've not thought out how well privitization would work. It does sound really interesting, and presents a lot of ideas I've not had before.

I can say from my limited experience, that I was raised in the 'hood. When I moved out to a more wealthy area, the educational climate was vastly different. Yea, the students were different. Quite a bit more mature. To demonstrate this, once my old school had a football victory over my new school. They didn't just cheer, they went wild. They broke some of the windows of our school office, punched out the principal, etc. Coming to class the next day, the kids were aghast at the behaviour of my old high school. They were surprised that people would act that way. I wasn't. I had grown up witnessing the insecurities of these kids, and had first hand experience with their behavior.

At my new school I witnessed creativity in a form I'd never seen before. Creativity, security, education, and discipline all seemed to mix together in this new school. There was talent that would astound me from day to day. I hung out with these guys and girls that would sometimes bring guitars to school and they could really play em. There were amazing artists, writers, poets, etc and loads of students generally not being afraid to be different. It was incredible. Students would walk about seeming not to worry so much about being mean or tough, but they'd seem to have some spark of genuine concern for others. They were intelligent, and disciplined. There was the odd element that was rebellious, but even this rebellion was tame, and amounted to not much more than drug use (yes comparatively tame) or subversive meanings in the school literature magazine.

The teachers were different too. I noticed there were higher standards of excellence they seemed to hold themselves to. I enjoyed coming to class. Some of the teachers in particular were quite good. There were good teachers at my old school too, but they seemed to abound more at the new one. Whatever the case, it was an overall improvement.

I suppose all of this could say a lot about the neighborhoods we all lived in. I suppose it could say a lot about money. But I think these issues really oversimplify things. I think there was a lot more involved here, and I think that a lot of it had to do with the nature of the families everyone was raised in.

Coming from where I'd come from and then seeing what I later saw, I'd have to say wholeheartedly that good education makes a vast difference in helping with creativity. But the question begins not so much in the school, but in the family, and in one's self.

Edited June 20, 2008 by MikeUpton
I need an edubacation.

[pam]

I have to agree with some points made by Mike.

When my daughter first started kindergarten we were living in San Diego. Her kindergarten class had 35 students in it. 18 of those students English was not their first language. 7 of those students didn't speak English at all.

School district budget constraints did not allow the teacher the opportunity to have an aide assist her in the classroom. The majority of the families both parents worked so were unable to volunteer in the classroom. There were 4 of us that each took a day and stayed the entire class period to assist the teacher. That usually meant cutting, copying, preparing teaching materials for the teacher.

Because there was no aide, the teacher had to keep the students all together in their learning. For those that were brighter...their learning was hindered by those who didn't speak English. Not saying those kids weren't bright but there was a language barrier there. Those kids that learned their alphabet quickly, learned their numbers quickly, learned all the things that were taught quickly were held back by the fact that there just wasn't the resources to allow them to move onto different things.

Then in the middle of her kindergarten year we moved to Utah. Now because the cut off to allow those to enter kindergarten was different in Utah than in California my daughter had to wait until the following year to enter school.

What a difference in schools. Here we had more parents willing to volunteer than we knew what to do with. Aides were assigned to each kindergarten teacher allowing those that were ready to move ahead and allowed those that needed extra attention the attention they needed.

Was one teacher or school better than the other? Not in my opinion. It sometimes all comes down to location location location and budget budget budget.

[Adeipho]

No one seems to recall something very basic;

Heavenly Father is the most "educated" being of all and because of this he is also the most creative.

But, I understand that when people in this thread say "education" they really mean "the education system". So, we should rephrase the title to "Does the current education system destroy creativity"

If used properly education is the key to finding ways to be creative that would have otherwise eluded you.

[MikeUpton]

No one seems to recall something very basic;

Heavenly Father is the most "educated" being of all and because of this he is also the most creative.

But, I understand that when people in this thread say "education" they really mean "the education system". So, we should rephrase the title to "Does the current education system destroy creativity"

If used properly education is the key to finding ways to be creative that would have otherwise eluded you.

Who can deny the power of education in creativity when you witness the work of God? Good point.

[prisonchaplain]

For those who say privatization would be unprofitable, consider this scenario:

Let's say that for a better education, a parent is willing to pay babysitters' wages for their children to be in school. Minimum wage is $6.85. How about round that off - let's say a flat $5 per hour for a good education. If you tossed the kid in daycare instead of school, you would spend significantly more than that.

$5 per hour would work out to $30 per day (let's assume you pay for 6 hours of instruction, but not lunch or recess times). Based on a 180-day school year (which is about normal), that works out to $450 per month per student. For some, that may seem like a significant cost, but isn't it much cheaper than a babysitter?

OK, I know that's ridiculous. But let's assume that the government would provide tuition assistance in the form of vouchers, etc. Even if they chose to pay the whole tuition for every student, the annual $5400 would be much cheaper than the 2006 average of $9138 per student in the US.

In a K-8 private school of 500 students, $5 per hour for each student would yield an annual budget of $2,700,000. That doesn't include community donations or government help for the school. Let's say we limit class sizes to 25. In a school of 500, that would be 20 classes. That means a budget of $135,000 per year per classroom. That could pay every classroom teacher a $55,000 salary (well above the national average), give every classroom $2,000 per year for materials, and leave the school $1,560,000 per year for other expenses, like facilities and administration.

The concept is feasible.

Feasible, plausible, possible...but ultimately, it would fail. Even our federal prison system has only marginal success with privatizing its lowest security institutions. And, from what I can hear and read, the only reason the private companies do it cheaper is that they pay lower wages and they cut corners. Any privately-run public school would be the same. Regulations and union agreements would eliminate any cost-savings, and you would have an added layer of employees (government) to monitor the work of the private school. Add the complexity of an education system that is still very decentralized.

I do favor tuition tax credits (vs. vouchers). Credits allow parents "agency" for children's education, but, because they do not amount to government monies going directly to the schools, there is less opportunity for the government to demand intrusive oversight.

[NateHowe]

Feasible, plausible, possible...but ultimately, it would fail. Even our federal prison system has only marginal success with privatizing its lowest security institutions. And, from what I can hear and read, the only reason the private companies do it cheaper is that they pay lower wages and they cut corners. Any privately-run public school would be the same. Regulations and union agreements would eliminate any cost-savings, and you would have an added layer of employees (government) to monitor the work of the private school. Add the complexity of an education system that is still very decentralized.

I do favor tuition tax credits (vs. vouchers). Credits allow parents "agency" for children's education, but, because they do not amount to government monies going directly to the schools, there is less opportunity for the government to demand intrusive oversight.

Yet under the current system, the money which goes to the schools is almost exclusively government money. That "extra layer of government employees" is already there in the form of each state's department of education. Do factories go out of business because they have to pay to have OSHA inspectors on site? No, it is usually something else fundamentally wrong with the business. If a private school had to pay for one employee whose sole job was to assure that they were accredited, it would be a reasonable part of the business plan.

As a bureaucratic socialist institution, the current K-12 educational system is bloated. Smart businessmen could still make plenty of money in private schools, even by paying teachers better than they will get in a public school.