What is this doctrine?

[Fortigurn]

I have been presented with the following quotes.

"That exalted position was made manifest to me at a very early day. I had a direct revelation of this. It was most perfect and complete. If there ever was a thing revealed to man perfectly, clearly, so that there could be no doubt or dubiety, this was revealed to me, and it came in these words: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." This may appear to some minds as something very strange and remarkable, but it is in perfect harmony with the teachings of Jesus Christ and with His promises."

Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, Unchangeable Love of God, Sunday, September 18, 1898

As a matter of fact, he taught that through this process God himself attained perfection. From President Snow's understanding of the teachings of the Prophet on this doctrinal point, he coined the familiar couplet: "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." This teaching is peculiar to the restored gospel of Jesus Christ."

Elder Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 1964

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this church."

Official LDS Lesson Manual, 1997, page 34, "The Teachings of Brigham Young"

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible relationship: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit … was to make himself visible … , you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.”"

“Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female,” Ensign, Jan. 2005, 48

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

* Is this a revelation?

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

Please note that I am not here to debate the doctrine.

[Aphrodite]

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

The doctrine that God once lived as we do now. The LDS believe that 'worlds' like ours are created, serve their purpose and will then be celestialised. They believe that we are not the only, or indeed first world out there. There are many worlds, each with their own God. LDS believe that faithful members can become Gods one day and create their own worlds. So following this belief would mean the God we believe in is one of those individuals who has lived a life on earth, and become a God in his own right. It is quite heavy and complicated doctrine, but that is essentially what the LDS believe. I hope this is helpful.

* Is this a revelation?

The church does believe this is revelation, yes.

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

Yes, we are taught that God was once a man, like us. Its all in the Doctrine and covenants I believe, some of the more scripturally minded people here can point in the direction of those scriptures if you wish Im sure!

[Flyonthewall]

I have been presented with the following quotes.

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

Eternal Progression

* Is this a revelation?

Yes

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

Yes

Please note that I am not here to debate the doctrine.

Whew!

[Misshalfway]

I just wanted to add that we also believe that as we progess thru righteous living and obedience to God's commandments, that God (Heavenly Father) will always be our father. Becoming a 'God' in this sense is much like a child becoming and adult- just as a child learns and becomes independent, our goal is to become more spiritually independent thru obedience and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. But our parents always remain our parents. Make sense?

It was said earlier that anyone who progresses to this point of "adulthood" will also have the opportunity to start of create another world like this one. As I have pondered this idea myself, I am convinced to some degree that such an undertaking will be accomplished under the direction of Father in Heaven.

It is also important to note that this earth experience is only part of our progression. We lived with God before we came here and we will return to Him after death and continue our progression in that realm.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Moksha]

Didn't Elder Bednar say something similar, such as 'cucumbers are now, pickles once was and as pickles are now cucumbers may become'?

These words struck me as containing a lot of truth.

[PapilioMemnon]

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

Exaltation - The potential man has to become as Heavenly Father & Jesus Christ.

* Is this a revelation?

Yes, and there are plenty of scriptures to support it as shown below.

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

Please note that I am not here to debate the doctrine.

Yes, it is taught.

I'm glad, I don't like to debate Scriptures or doctrine.

Link - Topical Guide: Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father

Gen. 1: 26 (Moses 2: 26) let them have dominion.

Gen. 3: 22 (Moses 4: 28) man is become as one of us.

Lev. 19: 2 (1 Pet. 1: 16) be holy: for I . . . am holy.

Ps. 8: 5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels.

Ps. 8: 6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands.

Ps. 82: 6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High.

Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.

Luke 24: 39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 10: 34 (Ps. 82: 1-8; D&C 76: 58) Is it not written in your law . . . Ye are gods.

Acts 17: 29 we are the offspring of God.

Rom. 8: 17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

2 Cor. 3: 18 changed into the same image from glory to glory.

Gal. 4: 7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Eph. 4: 13 Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man.

Heb. 12: 9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.

1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.

Rev. 3: 21 him that overcometh will . . . sit with me in my throne.

2 Ne. 2: 25 men are, that they might have joy.

3 Ne. 9: 17 to them have I given to become the sons of God.

3 Ne. 27: 27 what manner of men ought ye to be . . . even as I am.

3 Ne. 28: 10 your joy shall be full . . . shall be even as I am.

D&C 14: 7 you shall have eternal life.

D&C 88: 29 Ye who are quickened by . . . celestial glory.

D&C 88: 107 saints shall . . . be made equal with him.

D&C 93: 20 you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified.

D&C 93: 29 Man was also in the beginning with God.

D&C 121: 32 every man shall enter into his eternal presence.

D&C 129: 3 spirits of just men made perfect.

D&C 130: 1 he is a man like ourselves.

D&C 130: 22 Father has a body of flesh and bones.

D&C 131: 2 (D&C 131: 1-4) in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order.

D&C 132: 20 (D&C 132: 1-24) shall they be gods, because they have all power.

D&C 133: 57 that men might be made partakers of the glories.

Moses 1: 39 to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

JS-H 1: 17 I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy.

See also 2 Tim. 2: 10—12; 1 Ne. 11: 11; D&C 50: 24.

[Traveler]

I have been presented with the following quotes.

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

* Is this a revelation?

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

Please note that I am not here to debate the doctrine.

1. What doctrine - The doctrine of Christ

2. It is pure revelation.

3. It is taught by the LDS Church and every true Christian.

Now let me explain something as clearly as I can. Jesus the Christ is the example and mediator of G-d. Everything that man can learn about G-d is given as example in Jesus Christ. Now let us review.

As man is G-d once was. {As man is Jesus Christ was - he came and lived as man in perfect example}

As G-d is man may become. {As Jesus Christ died was resurrected with a physical body according to many witnesses including 11 of his apostles. Jesus Christ was exalted and sat at the right hand of G-d. So can man be resurrected and exalted to live and dwell forever with G-d at his right hand}. As Jesus Christ is heir to righteousness so can man inherit all that G-d has.

The Traveler

[Fortigurn]

PapilioMemnon, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of man, not the progression of God. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

Traveler, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of Jesus Christ, and not Heavenly Father. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

Is there disagreement on the understanding of this doctrine among LDS members?

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Fortigurn

[PapilioMemnon]

PapilioMemnon, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of man, not the progression of God. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

Traveler, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of Jesus Christ, and not Heavenly Father. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

Is there disagreement on the understanding of this doctrine among LDS members?

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Well, in the quotes he posted, it talks about men achieving the status that Heavenly Father has; then explains that Heavenly Father achieve that potential.

I just responded in general, about the doctrine of exaltation, that we can achieve His potential and cited the references of the Scriptures related to it.

I believe Traveler's way of explaining was through Jesus Christ; we do not viewed the doctrine differently, just explained it in different ways. He compared; I stated.

[tubaloth]

I have a few questions:

* What doctrine is being referred to here?

The doctrine being specifically taught here is our potential to be like God is.

* Is this a revelation?

It is taught in the Bible and in the Doctrine in Covenants. But more it came through “discourse” given by Joseph Smith, and Lernozo Snow.

* Is this taught by the LDS Church?

I’ll say Yes and No. If you understand this doctrine, then you realize different parts of it are taught all the time (use be coming like God). But the doctrine is something that is sensitive so it usually is not taught as bluntly as it use to be.

I don’t know what your background is in the LDS teaching so its hard to gauge what level you are at. I well say this is a deeper doctrine of our teaching and something that I don’t expect anybody to even remotely understand (or comprehend).

I could try to go into a long spill about this, and try to teach it (at least somewhat). But that isn’t what you asked! And its kind of hard to teach a doctrine like this over a message board!

PapilioMemnon, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of man, not the progression of God. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

This doctrine is kind really two fold. We believe that we can become like Heavenly Father, even to Living the life he has (Eternal life, sense God is Eternal) and in a way inheriting all he has (including the power of God). This is the doctrine that is taught, and really all we worry about. The second half of where God came from is less clear. But as we believe the doctrine we assume the same type of thing happen with our Heavenly Father. But the details aren’t clear and there isn’t enough information and so it is just speculation. Like Heavenly Father could have been the Savior of some other world (with Jesus Christ got Godhood) also in LDS teaching we believe that Little Children that die before the age of accountability also receive exaltation. So Heavenly Father really could have just died before he had a full life. Simply we just don’t know.

Traveler, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of Jesus Christ, and not Heavenly Father. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

It is through the progress of Jesus Christ that we realize what we can become.

(Romans 8:17.)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Because Christ’s Atonement we can become “joint heirs!” Heirs to what? All the God has! Christ received this, we also join in on it with Christ.

Edited June 23, 2008 by tubaloth

[Vanhin]

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine." (LDS Newsroom - Approaching Mormon Doctrine). The official doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is contained in the following works: the Holy Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declarations and proclamations, and Articles of Faith. (See Scriptures)

Our scriptures teach, that God is both infinite and eternal, and that he is an exalted Man who's spirit is clothed with an immortal glorified body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22). He is the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and as the scriptures teach, he has always been God. Our scriptures also teach that Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Universe, and that he is the Son of God, and that "...by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God." (D&C 76:24). Dispite what some have said, God is not the God of just one World. Here is what God told Moses:

And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. (Moses 1:3-4)

And God further instructed Moses:

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. (Moses 1:34-35)

The spirits of all mankind are the offspring of God the Father, and as his children, our potential is to become like him. God told Moses that his work and his glory was to help man reach his greatest potential:

And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:37-39)

We affirm that the scriptures are true, and that mortality is a part of our progression to become like our Father. We testify that Jesus is the Christ, and that his Atonement makes all of this possible, and that it was completed once, and for all mankind.

The Atonement of Jesus Christ, and his resurrection makes it possible for everyone who has ever born into mortality to be resurrected one day and live forever. This comes to all regardless of whether they have been good or evil in this life.

The Atonement also makes it possible for us to be cleansed from our sins, that we may return back to the presence of our Father, and his Christ. This is conditioned on us accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ, receiving it's ordinances, and enduring to the end. Those who are faithful in their testimony of Jesus Christ, and have received all the necessary ordinances, will return, with their families, to dwell in the presence of God forever. There we will have a fullness of joy, and continue the work of the Father; thus glorifying his name forever (D&C 132:63).

The following video is helpful as well.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited June 23, 2008 by Vanhin
I accidently left out an important scripture that I was referring to.

[Fortigurn]

tubaloth, you say that this doctrine is 'our potential to be like God is'. Other posters didn't say that, they said it was that God was once like us:

* 'The doctrine that God once lived as we do now'

* 'As man is G-d once was'

* 'This is the way our Heavenly Father became God'

However, you then say 'as we believe the doctrine we assume the same type of thing happen with our Heavenly Father', which makes it clear you believe that the doctrine does assume the same type of thing happened with Heavenly Father. This agrees with what all the others have said.

You say 'It is taught in the Bible and in the Doctrine in Covenants', so that means it's canonical. You also say 'this is a deeper doctrine of our teaching', so it is taught as doctrine by your church.

So far I've been told by at least four people here that the doctrine in question is that God (Heavenly Father), was once like us and became God, that this is a revelation, that this is doctrine, and that this is taught by the LDS Church. I appreciate the clarification.

[Fortigurn]

Vanhim, thanks for your useful post. You said 'Our scriptures teach, that God is both infinite and eternal, and that he is an exalted Man who's spirit is clothed with an immortal glorified body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22)'.

I have been told that when an LDS member refers to 'Scripture', that 'Scripture' does not actually refer ot what has been canonized. I was under the impression that D&C was a canonical work, however.

[Heavenguard]

I still have trouble trying to wrap my mind around the idea that God is eternal, yet progressed as we once did. As God's begotten children, we did not exist before we were begat by him. As God's children who are in the same likeness of God (that we may be exalted to godhood as he was), then he too was begotten by his own Father. As his father's begotten children, then he did not exist before be was begotten himself.

I understand the idea of pre-existence, but even our pre-existent souls (and God's too) must have had a beginning, no? Otherwise we would have 'Eternal' as a humanly attribute, but we do not ascribe eternity to ourselves as humans, only to God.

That's how my logic reads it, anyway. Could the apparent error in my reasoning please be corrected so I may understand this better?

[Vanhin]

Vanhim, thanks for your useful post. You said 'Our scriptures teach, that God is both infinite and eternal, and that he is an exalted Man who's spirit is clothed with an immortal glorified body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22)'.

I have been told that when an LDS member refers to 'Scripture', that 'Scripture' does not actually refer ot what has been canonized. I was under the impression that D&C was a canonical work, however.

When I say scripture, I mean our canon and official declarations/proclamations. :)

I am LDS, and I do not hold the view that there was a point in time that God was ever less than God. Our scriptures are not in harmony with that belief. I do, however, believe that the Father experienced mortality, and gained a physical body and now has a glorified immortal body of flesh and bone. Thus statements that God has been where we are and that we can become like him, are true.

I also believe that Jesus Christ is infinite and eternal, and that he was always "like unto God" (Abr. 3:24), and is the God who under the direction of the Father created all things (see previous post).

Jesus Christ was God before he entered mortality and gained his body. He was Jehovah, the Creator of the universe. He was a perfect man, and never at any point was he not God during mortality, nor after. :) Because of his divinity, he had the power over life and death, and he gave his life for us. He also took it up again and was resurrected. If the Son has such power, so does the Father. So, the experience of the Saviors mortality can serve as a witness of the Father's mortal experience.

We do not know the circumstances of Heavenly Father's mortal experience, but let us not assume that he was anything less than the God of heaven both before and after. We cannot come to that conclusion with all the binding scripture that we have about his infinite, eternal, and endless godship.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Edited June 23, 2008 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I still have trouble trying to wrap my mind around the idea that God is eternal, yet progressed as we once did. As God's begotten children, we did not exist before we were begat by him. As God's children who are in the same likeness of God (that we may be exalted to godhood as he was), then he too was begotten by his own Father. As his father's begotten children, then he did not exist before be was begotten himself.

I understand the idea of pre-existence, but even our pre-existent souls (and God's too) must have had a beginning, no? Otherwise we would have 'Eternal' as a humanly attribute, but we do not ascribe eternity to ourselves as humans, only to God.

That's how my logic reads it, anyway. Could the apparent error in my reasoning please be corrected so I may understand this better?

Fair questions. The problem with us at this point, is that mortality limits our understanding. To us, everything has a beginning and an end, and is finite. So, we often try to think of infinite and eternal things in finite ways. In fact, even God, when speaking to us, speaks in ways that are to our understanding. He says things like, beginning and end, yet there really is no beginning and there will be no end to his works and his words.

So, with that in mind, there are some things that we just cannot understand about the infinite and eternal nature of existence. There are also many things that have not been revealed to us yet either. In due time all things will be revelaed and we will see things for how they really are, as God sees them.

Our spirits are co-eternal with God, and we too have always existed. One day we will know exactly what that means. For now, we should understand that we are children of God, and as such, our potential is great! Through continued faithfulness, prayer, and scripture study, God can reveal glimpses of unspeakable things to us to inspire us along the way.

Regards,

Vanhin

[HiJolly]

Just a few thoughts on this. Doctrines of the Church are found in only 3 sources, per official church statemnent on lds.org:

1-- The four standard works of scripture

2-- The official proclamations and declarations of the First Presidency of the Church

3-- The 13 Articles of Faith

So President Snow's revelation is not doctrine of the Church, as of the afore-mentioned statement on doctrine of 2007.

I believe it is true, of course, but IIRC there is no doctrinal support for the idea of God once being as man is at some point, anywhere. Therefore, this portion of the 'couplet' is not currently taught in the Church, other than an occasional reference to Pres. Snow's statement.

This is validated by Pres. Hinckley's statment "I don't know that we teach that"...

HiJolly

[Traveler]

Traveler, you seem to interpret this doctrine as referring to the progression of Jesus Christ, and not Heavenly Father. Would that be correct, or do you understand it to refer to the progression of Heavenly Father?

Is there disagreement on the understanding of this doctrine among LDS members?

Thanks for all the responses so far.

You did not understand my post. Jesus testified that to know Him was to know the Father. Because of the Fall of man we learn all things pertaining to G-d through Jesus Christ. There is nothing that can be known of G-d without knowing it through the example of Jesus Christ. You speak of this as the progression of Christ - You do not understand. It is a statement of the condescension of the Son of G-d, Jesus Christ. The statement is both a reference to the work (sacrifice) of G-d and the destiny (exlatation) of man and that the two are eternally related and cannot be separated.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I still have trouble trying to wrap my mind around the idea that God is eternal, yet progressed as we once did. As God's begotten children, we did not exist before we were begat by him. As God's children who are in the same likeness of God (that we may be exalted to godhood as he was), then he too was begotten by his own Father. As his father's begotten children, then he did not exist before be was begotten himself.

I understand the idea of pre-existence, but even our pre-existent souls (and God's too) must have had a beginning, no? Otherwise we would have 'Eternal' as a humanly attribute, but we do not ascribe eternity to ourselves as humans, only to God.

That's how my logic reads it, anyway. Could the apparent error in my reasoning please be corrected so I may understand this better?

Do you have a probleming believing that it is possible for G-d the Father to have had a mortal experience? Could you explain why you think he must forever lack that power or ability?

The Traveler

[utcowboy]

Hijolley,

Just a point of interest to me and probably not many others, but in the mouth's of two or three witnesses....

I have seen and heard many of our (LDS) leaders repeat this statement. To me that qualifies it as doctrine. I'm sure I'm wrong in so many ways, but if multiple prophets have repeated it, it must be right.

[Fortigurn]

Traveler, I do not in fact believe that this speaks of the progression of Christ. I understood you to be saying it refers to the progression of Christ.

HiJolly, the 'official church statement' you cite (which ironically does not appear in the Standard Works nor the official proclamations and declarations of the First Presidency of the Church nor the Articles of Faith), actually also includes 'official declarations and proclamations', which are not restricted to 'official declarations and proclamations of the First Presidency'.

[checkerboy]

I still have trouble trying to wrap my mind around the idea that God is eternal, yet progressed as we once did. As God's begotten children, we did not exist before we were begat by him. As God's children who are in the same likeness of God (that we may be exalted to godhood as he was), then he too was begotten by his own Father. As his father's begotten children, then he did not exist before be was begotten himself.

I understand the idea of pre-existence, but even our pre-existent souls (and God's too) must have had a beginning, no? Otherwise we would have 'Eternal' as a humanly attribute, but we do not ascribe eternity to ourselves as humans, only to God.

That's how my logic reads it, anyway. Could the apparent error in my reasoning please be corrected so I may understand this better?

We existed as intelligences before we were given spirit bodies. It is my understanding that intelligences have always existed and have no beginning. In that way God can say he has always existed. We too can say the same thing.

[Heavenguard]

Do you have a probleming believing that it is possible for G-d the Father to have had a mortal experience? Could you explain why you think he must forever lack that power or ability?

I don't have a problem with believing that he had a mortal existence. What is irreconcilable in my logic is the idea that we, as God's children, can become exalted as gods like God our father. The reason it is irreconcilable in my logic is because since we model after our father, then he too had the same existence as we. It is not that he had a mortal existence that I can't comprehend (Jesus was an example of God's mortal existence on this Earth), but that there must have once been a time or capacity where God did not yet exist, as we did not yet exist, even in our pre-existence, before we were begotten.

If the explanation or whatever for my question/understanding will hijack thread and bring it in another direction, please start another. (I'm not sure if i should yet >_>)

[Islander]

Mmmmm. Check this. You go and buy a pizza and slice it in ever smaller and smaller pieces. You can split those pieces to a number that is mathematically infinite but the pizza itself is finite. It is rather a collection of pieces where the sum of it is much larger than the pieces themselves.

The problem is that we are tri-dimensional beings and try to "see" everything in those terms. Imagine that God started so long ago that you would have no way to express time in a tri-dimensional equation of when that happened. But it did. The same for the future. Sorry...ran out of verbal visual aids.

As far as our potential for exaltation, children have the DNA of their parents and the same genetic attributes and thus potential as the parents. Again, you may be looking thru the "finite" lenses, but there is nothing to prevent you from reaching a sphere like you Father in Heaven. It may take an Ion but by then He will be still several Ions ahead of you, again. We should not be too concerned about it as we speak. It would be like my 4 year old trying to decide or even imagine what would be her doctoral dissertation theme 30 years from now....sort of

Edited June 24, 2008 by Islander

[Vanhin]

I don't have a problem with believing that he had a mortal existence. What is irreconcilable in my logic is the idea that we, as God's children, can become exalted as gods like God our father. The reason it is irreconcilable in my logic is because since we model after our father, then he too had the same existence as we. It is not that he had a mortal existence that I can't comprehend (Jesus was an example of God's mortal existence on this Earth), but that there must have once been a time or capacity where God did not yet exist, as we did not yet exist, even in our pre-existence, before we were begotten.

If the explanation or whatever for my question/understanding will hijack thread and bring it in another direction, please start another. (I'm not sure if i should yet >_>)

I follow your logic. That's just the thing, it is not our doctrine that there was a time when God did not exist. According to the scriptures, He is endless, infinite, and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting:

Behold, and hearken unto the voice of him who has all power, who is from everlasting to everlasting, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. (D&C 61:1)

We also believe that we are co-eternal with God, and have always existed, yet we are literal begotten sons and daughters of God. All things concerning our pre-mortal existence have not been revealed to us yet. Based on somethings that early leaders of the Church have said, members have speculated about this topic, and many believe one thing or another.

God does not create something out of nothing. From our scriptures we read about the matter that our spirits are made out of:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7)

Modern revelation refers to this spirit matter as intelligence, and spirit sons and daughters of God as organized intelligences. It is eternal and has always existed. (See Abr. 3:22, D&C 93:29). Our guide to the scriptures gives the following definition to intelligence(s).

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. (Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences)

By modern revelation we also know that physical matter is eternal as well, and that combining spirit and element is desireable.

For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:33-34)

We are dual beings, spirit and physical matter. So, there is not one part of us that had a beginning, and we too are co-eternal with God. If we had a beginning, we would have an end.

Regards,

vanhin