I'm having some issues with Joseph Smith

[Dale]

Joseph Smith gets all the attention in the polygamy histories that get published. With Brigham Young he had 27 wives. And he had a number of children by plural wives. It is just with Brigham Young no books detailing the marriages to his wives exist. So people hardly if ever get upset over any of his marriages. But if people knew the details from a popular book on his wives i think his marriages would become a hot topic of interest.

[Guest User-Removed]

Joseph Smith gets all the attention in the polygamy histories that get published. With Brigham Young he had 27 wives. And he had a number of children by plural wives. It is just with Brigham Young no books detailing the marriages to his wives exist. So people hardly if ever get upset over any of his marriages. But if people knew the details from a popular book on his wives i think his marriages would become a hot topic of interest.

Hmmmmm...Dale...we have a little disconnect here...According to JSIII...his Father was only married to ONE woman...hmmmmm...You Josephites have spent a lifetime telling us Brighamites that Joseph never participated in CPM....Are you now changing your tune as a faith????

Similar to how the CofC has now denied the First Vision and simply turned it into some type of hallucination????

[Islander]

I find it very interesting from the research standpoint, that nobody attacks the doctrine i.e the message, of the BoM. In fact, I submit that most honest, truly unbiased Christian theologians would not find fault in the doctrine in the pages of the BoM. They may not agree with it but they will be pleasantly surprised. Most of the critics seem to spend a lot of time attempting a character assassination and discrediting the messenger thru historical revisionism rather than arguing the merits of the text itself.

I just finished reading "Claiming Christ." I think it is a small step towards helping people move away

from the exhausted and trodden down path of personal attacks on Joseph and delve into text criticism based on theological grounds rather.

[HiJolly]

Hmmmmm...Dale...we have a little disconnect here...According to JSIII...his Father was only married to ONE woman...hmmmmm...You Josephites have spent a lifetime telling us Brighamites that Joseph never participated in CPM....Are you now changing your tune as a faith????

Similar to how the CofC has now denied the First Vision and simply turned it into some type of hallucination????

MDS,

The Nauvoo temple sealing records are very clear. And we know that Emma lied in denying Joseph's polygamy, even though she was present at several actual marriage/sealings.

And I don't appreciate your denigrating tone, Dale is a fine scholar of all things Mormon.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I just finished reading "Claiming Christ." I think it is a small step towards helping people move away from the exhausted and trodden down path of personal attacks on Joseph and delve into text criticism based on theological grounds rather.

What do you think -- should I borrow it, or buy it?

HiJolly

[Flyonthewall]

Really? So why is there still illness and suffering in the world? Why is my father in law still ill? Prayer may help some people with comfort but it does not solve problems. If that was the case my in laws would have a much happier life to the one they have. And they have probably prayed enough for eveyone in the world twice over!! Im sure some people gain a degree of comfort from prayer but it does not solve problems. If I pray and say, God, why did Joseph Smith have so many wives? What sort of answer can I possibly get thats valid from a 'feeling' as how else is he going to answer me?

I don't remember which speaker said it, nor which General Conference it was said in, but in effect, it was stated that: God will not remove the trials we face, but instead, will bouy us up to get through it. He will lighten our burden, but not remove it.

[candyprpl]

Before I joined the Church I was always amazed at how many people would bring up 'mormonism' in a discussion and it would always be focused on polygamy -- 'Brigham Young and all his wives,' or 'Joseph Smith and all his wives.' Even then I would throw my two cents in and say that that was not what the church was about. Now that I'm a member I still say that and ask if they would like to know what the Church is about. It either shuts them up or they say yes. Then I start with Joseph Smith, who he was and about the restoration.

What makes people always want to focus on that part of the Church's history?

[Dale]

Hmmmmm...Dale...we have a little disconnect here...According to JSIII...his Father was only married to ONE woman...hmmmmm...You Josephites have spent a lifetime telling us Brighamites that Joseph never participated in CPM....Are you now changing your tune as a faith????

Similar to how the CofC has now denied the First Vision and simply turned it into some type of hallucination????

Joseph Smith3rd actually suggested his father was sealed multiple then living women for eternity. He hated to confess that as his father being guilty of practicing mortal polygamy. He did feel some of the women who claimed to be his fathers wives were guilty of fraud. He felt based on James Whiteheads Temple Lot case testimony that D.&C. 132 was an altered forgery. That the original Whitehead saw at Winter Quarters was said by him to be different than trurned up in the LDS D.&C. He said the copy he saw did not sanction polygamy in the here and now.

He suggested what he said in our official publication while he was alive. I happen to hold leanings toward his view myself. I am not absolutely certain myself documents like D.&C. 132, or William Claytons journal is authentic. I myself think some of the women may have falsely claimed a relationship with Joseph Smith. But being an open minded person i am willing to be open to the possibility of different historical possibilities.

Privately Emma said Joseph Smith was not to then live with the wives or have children. Her side was that some of these wives started misrepresenting themselves as her husbands lovers. But seeing her husbands policy of denials in response to John C. Bennets misrepresentations as good used them to deal with the LDS side. But she did privately tell people that her husband was sealed to other women.

Remember prior to Joseph Smith 3rd it was our official position he was involved. Issac Sheen in the Saints Herald advocated as church position that view. Via common consent Joseph Smith 3rds idea was then popularly accepted. And his view also allowed his father being married for women for the eternity. And choosing his wording carefully he chose the platonic sealing explanation as one possibility. He knew his father could have been involved with having mortal wives, but hated to confess that based on what he knew. And via common consent in recent years acceptance of the original view became popular again. The church underwent changes from the start on our views on the subject.

In the Temple Lot case Lucy Walkers and Melissa Lott Willis testimony had been rejected by a U.S. judge. Based on this my people became more confident Joseph Smith was legally innocent of the claim he had lived with wives other than Emma.

In the court case Joseph Smith Jr, was accused of polygamy because of marriage for eternity sealings. William Marks one of Joseph Smith 3rds counsellors had told Joseph Smith 3rd and others his father had a polygamy revelation. Though he held in other statements he made D.&C. 132 was a forged version of it. He made his statement about the July 12th 1843 revelation at an official church meeting.

Marks made a statement suggesting Joseph Smith confessed to having been decieved regarding polygamy, or sealing. In later statements he exonerated Joseph Smith Jr. atleast of practicing the earthly polygamy part.

Joseph Smith 3rd was better informed than people give him credit for being. But he had adopted an alternative view to the LDS view based on the testimony of several RLDS witnesses. He was not impressed with the wives who claimed to be his fathers lovers he had met. But he did not reject any truth in the LDS side he felt he had to honestly accept. He had no problem in rejecting any of the LDS side he felt was untrue.

I never have heard my leaders call the First Vision a hallucination. I see the First Vision taught from time to time as one of Joseph Smiths visions. But he only saw God and Christ in vision, and i doubt they appeared before him like two men. I don't recall any of my older RLDS literature as saying Joseph Smith saw God and Christ naturally. Rather they suggest he was seen in vision which might in some persons minds be similar to a hallucination. But even if they adopted apostate ideas that would be no different than the early Christian church adopting apostate ideas.

Does my answer help clarify my position?

Edited June 30, 2008 by Dale

[Guest User-Removed]

MDS,

The Nauvoo temple sealing records are very clear. And we know that Emma lied in denying Joseph's polygamy, even though she was present at several actual marriage/sealings.

And I don't appreciate your denigrating tone, Dale is a fine scholar of all things Mormon.

HiJolly

You're welcome to your opinion Hi...no matter how wrong, mean spirited and judgemental it may be.

I stand by my question to Dale...whether you appreciate it or not...

[Guest User-Removed]

Joseph Smith3rd actually suggested his father was sealed multiple then living women for eternity. He hated to confess that as his father being guilty of practicing mortal polygamy. He did feel some of the women who claimed to be his fathers wives were guilty of fraud. He felt based on James Whiteheads Temple Lot case testimony that D.&C. 132 was an altered forgery. That the original Whitehead saw at Winter Quarters was said by him to be different than trurned up in the LDS D.&C. He said the copy he saw did not sanction polygamy in the here and now.

He suggested what he said in our official publication while he was alive. I happen to hold leanings toward his view myself. I am not absolutely certain myself documents like D.&C. 132, or William Claytons journal is authentic. I myself think some of the women may have falsely claimed a relationship with Joseph Smith. But being an open minded person i am willing to be open to the possibility of different historical possibilities.

Privately Emma said Joseph Smith was not to then live with the wives or have children. Her side was that some of these wives started misrepresenting themselves as her husbands lovers. But seeing her husbands policy of denials in response to John C. Bennets misrepresentations as good used them to deal with the LDS side. But she did privately tell people that her husband was sealed to other women.

Remember prior to Joseph Smith 3rd it was our official position he was involved. Issac Sheen in the Saints Herald advocated as church position that view. Via common consent Joseph Smith 3rds idea was then popularly accepted. And his view also allowed his father being married for women for the eternity. And choosing his wording carefully he chose the platonic sealing explanation as one possibility. He knew his father could have been involved with having mortal wives, but hated to confess that based on what he knew. And via common consent in recent years acceptance of the original view became popular again. The church underwent changes from the start on our views on the subject.

In the Temple Lot case Lucy Walkers and Melissa Lott Willis testimony had been rejected by a U.S. judge. Based on this my people became more confident Joseph Smith was legally innocent of the claim he had lived with wives other than Emma.

In the court case Joseph Smith Jr, was accused of polygamy because of marriage for eternity sealings. William Marks one of Joseph Smith 3rds counsellors had told Joseph Smith 3rd and others his father had a polygamy revelation. Though he held in other statements he made D.&C. 132 was a forged version of it. He made his statement about the July 12th 1843 revelation at an official church meeting.

Marks made a statement suggesting Joseph Smith confessed to having been decieved regarding polygamy, or sealing. In later statements he exonerated Joseph Smith Jr. of practicing the earthly polygamy part.

Joseph Smith 3rd was better informed than people give him credit for being. But he had adopted an alternative view to the LDS view based on the testimony of several RLDS witnesses. He was not impressed with the wives who claimed to be his fathers lovers he had met. But he did not reject any truth in the LDS side he felt he had to honestly accept. He had no problem in rejecting any of the LDS side he felt was untrue.

I never have heard my leaders call the First Vision a hallucination. I see the First Vision taught from time to time as one of Joseph Smiths visions. But he only saw God and Christ in vision, and i doubt they appeared before him like two men. I don't recall any of my older RLDS literature as saying Joseph Smith saw God and Christ naturally. Rather they suggest he was seen in vision which might in some persons minds be similar to a hallucination. But even if they adopted apostate ideas that would be no different than the early Christian church going into partial apostasy.

Does my answer help clarify my position?

Thanks Dale...I'm assuming that Hearld Publishing has a catalog of material on this subject...can you recommend any titles?

As for my comment on the First Vision...I take it from the CoC website...

[Islander]

Docetism - the heretical doctrine (associated with the Gnostics) that Jesus had no human body and his sufferings and death on the cross were apparent rather than real. A rather far off take on teh physical attributes of Christ. That was about 100 years after the crucifixion.

170 years after the first vision, we are led to believe that it was not a real vision but a "cognitive" sort of neural perception rather than censorial experience. This is really interesting.

[Dale]

MyDogSkip I only have a few history books from Community of Christ historians. Joseph Smith 3rd Pragmatic Prophet is one that advocates he was involved in both types of polygamy. Some of the other books i have in my library i am not sure is being sold right now by Herald House. You might find The Church Through The Years by Richard Howard via Amazon. And Our Legacy of Faith by Paul M. Edwards is good. I only saw used copies available. I do not have a Herald House Catolog. They have a website and you can request a copy if the catolog if you wish.

Representative of the traditional RLDS view is Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price. It is online free to read with other articles at Restoration Bookstore Home Page if anybody is interested. Volume 2 in the series is being prepared for the printer. This is a book published by a private publishing company.

The Temple Lot case is reprinted by the above Price Publishing Company. It used to be published by Herald House. It has the James Whitehead court testimony in it.

The Memoirs of Joseph Smith 3rd is reprinted by them also. It has his account of his interview with Melissa Lot Willis. She showed him a family Bible with a marriage note in it. It had her sealed to Joseph Smith by her father in 1843. This was when he offered his opinion his father was married to her probably just for eternity. In the Temple Lot case in an affidavit i understand she gave the room number where she spent the night with Joseph. In the Temple Lot case Joseph Smith 3rd testified she told him nothing happened at the mansion house, or the homestead. He felt she told him the event had happened in an unspecified location but not ever where his father lived. This used to be printed by Herald House also.

If he was reliable then she perjured herself in her affidavit. I am not certain who was reliable him or her. But i could see a scenario where LDS leaders wanted her to state a relationship had happened at the mansion house, but she talked herself into writing what they wanted.

I also have two John Whitmer Historical Association Journals. It had a few polygamy articles in the two issues i have. Both of them i recall cites an 1865 meeting where the July 12th 1843 revelation was discussed. William Marks stated what he knew at the meeting.

I had to get what i had either via Amazon.com or from Herald House a few years ago. I had to buy some of it from the Restoration bookstore. (Price Publishing Company) Most of my history of early Mormon Polygamy is from Signature Books. In Sacred Lonliness, Mormon Polygamy a History are two i have. And i use alot of the FAIR research at its main website and Wiki. What materials i can point to are pretty scattered. I had to invest some money in my book collection.

I also have published copies of William Clayton's journals and the Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith.

I did a search at my church website and could not find a statement that treated the First Vision as a hallucination. I myself think Joseph Smiths encounter with God and Christ may have happened solely in his mind. Did a light outside his body was what he saw, or was made to see that? I am not sure he saw an external to his mind event. That is not to say he imagined the experience or that a real God was not involved. I looked around and saw nothing new on the First Vision i had not seen before. I did find a summary of the event in the basic history section:

Our History - Introduction

In my Community of Christ history books i saw more complete presentations of Joseph Smith and his vision. Wold you mind linking to what bothered you?

------------

I am not sure Herald House has anything useful on the History of Mormon Polygamy. What books i bought from them for missionary purposes and not to upset our members only get into the basics. I have found Signature Books my chosen source for all the deeper polygamy and Joseph Smith trivia. I throw in RLDS sources as it shows what information Signature Books leaves out.

I found many books which cite the Temple Lot case for example. In Sacred Lonliness use the source. But they all leave out the decision of the judge which went against the LDS witnesses. The judge thought it uncharitable to accuse Melissa Willis, or Lucy Walker of lying. But he saw no valid legal reason to grant them status as Joseph Smiths wives. At most he thought that Joseph Smith was a libertine and those women sports in nest hiding. but he thought legally Joseph smith was innocent of polygamy.

[Islander]

Before I joined the Church I was always amazed at how many people would bring up 'mormonism' in a discussion and it would always be focused on polygamy -- 'Brigham Young and all his wives,' or 'Joseph Smith and all his wives.' Even then I would throw my two cents in and say that that was not what the church was about. Now that I'm a member I still say that and ask if they would like to know what the Church is about. It either shuts them up or they say yes. Then I start with Joseph Smith, who he was and about the restoration.

What makes people always want to focus on that part of the Church's history?

The thread has been hijacked. Nobody responded to your question. Did you noticed? I posted and it was ignored as well. I think this kind of intellectual workout has very little underlying value. It adds very little value to the work of spreading the gospel.

Just my thoughts

[prisonchaplain]

I put this up on personal testimonies (Personal Beliefs » what motivated him » LDS Mormon Network,) but for me, polygamy, past 'racial statements' from leaders, etc. are not the key issues. It really does come down to whether or not Joseph Smith received revelation from God to restore the church in the latter days.

During my trip to Temple Square, I received a revelation of sorts. Joseph Smith was not, imho, merely disenchanted with the divisions amongst Protestants of his day--he was deeply disappointed, and perhaps even bitter. His father refused to attend church, because he believed the minister to be wrong in using fear tactics. This same minister told Joseph that there were no modern revelations or prophecy or visions. The words came back to him as a demonic taunt during his travails in prison.

I'm not sure this new insight answers the question of whether Joseph's accounts are true or not. However, it did help me understand what drove Joseph Smith, on a personal level, to operate with the kind of passion that has garnered him the continued trust of 13 million today.

Edited July 1, 2008 by prisonchaplain
add internal link

[Guest User-Removed]

MyDogSkip I only have a few history books from Community of Christ historians. Joseph Smith 3rd Pragmatic Prophet is one that advocates he was involved in both types of polygamy. Some of the other books i have in my library i am not sure is being sold right now by Herald House. You might find The Church Through The Years by Richard Howard via Amazon. And Our Legacy of Faith by Paul M. Edwards is good. I only saw used copies available. I do not have a Herald House Catolog. They have a website and you can request a copy if the catolog if you wish.

Representative of the traditional RLDS view is Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy by Richard and Pamela Price. It is online free to read with other articles at Restoration Bookstore Home Page if anybody is interested. Volume 2 in the series is being prepared for the printer. This is a book published by a private publishing company.

The Temple Lot case is reprinted by the above Price Publishing Company. It used to be published by Herald House. It has the James Whitehead court testimony in it.

The Memoirs of Joseph Smith 3rd is reprinted by them also. It has his account of his interview with Melissa Lot Willis. She showed him a family Bible with a marriage note in it. It had her sealed to Joseph Smith by her father in 1843. This was when he offered his opinion his father was married to her probably just for eternity. In the Temple Lot case in an affidavit i understand she gave the room number where she spent the night with Joseph. In the Temple Lot case Joseph Smith 3rd testified she told him nothing happened at the mansion house, or the homestead. He felt she told him the event had happened in an unspecified location but not ever where his father lived. This used to be printed by Herald House also.

If he was reliable then she perjured herself in her affidavit. I am not certain who was reliable him or her. But i could see a scenario where LDS leaders wanted her to state a relationship had happened at the mansion house, but she talked herself into writing what they wanted.

I also have two John Whitmer Historical Association Journals. It had a few polygamy articles in the two issues i have. Both of them i recall cites an 1865 meeting where the July 12th 1843 revelation was discussed. William Marks stated what he knew at the meeting.

I had to get what i had either via Amazon.com or from Herald House a few years ago. I had to buy some of it from the Restoration bookstore. (Price Publishing Company) Most of my history of early Mormon Polygamy is from Signature Books. In Sacred Lonliness, Mormon Polygamy a History are two i have. And i use alot of the FAIR research at its main website and Wiki. What materials i can point to are pretty scattered. I had to invest some money in my book collection.

I also have published copies of William Clayton's journals and the Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith.

I did a search at my church website and could not find a statement that treated the First Vision as a hallucination. I myself think Joseph Smiths encounter with God and Christ may have happened solely in his mind. Did a light outside his body was what he saw, or was made to see that? I am not sure he saw an external to his mind event. That is not to say he imagined the experience or that a real God was not involved. I looked around and saw nothing new on the First Vision i had not seen before. I did find a summary of the event in the basic history section:

Our History - Introduction

In my Community of Christ history books i saw more complete presentations of Joseph Smith and his vision. Wold you mind linking to what bothered you?

------------

I am not sure Herald House has anything useful on the History of Mormon Polygamy. What books i bought from them for missionary purposes and not to upset our members only get into the basics. I have found Signature Books my chosen source for all the deeper polygamy and Joseph Smith trivia. I throw in RLDS sources as it shows what information Signature Books leaves out.

I found many books which cite the Temple Lot case for example. In Sacred Lonliness use the source. But they all leave out the decision of the judge which went against the LDS witnesses. The judge thought it uncharitable to accuse Melissa Willis, or Lucy Walker of lying. But he saw no valid legal reason to grant them status as Joseph Smiths wives. At most he thought that Joseph Smith was a libertine and those women sports in nest hiding. but he thought legally Joseph smith was innocent of polygamy.

Dale...a few have complained that this thread has been hijacked. Out of respect for those who feel this way...I'll start a new thread on the CoC view of the first vision.

THX

[rameumptom]

Ocean,

Your concern with Joseph Smith having 30 wives is a cultural issue, not a right/wrong issue. Our culture is monogamist and looks down on anyone being married to more than one wife. The first Republicans in the 1850s looked to end the two remnants of "barbarism - slavery and polygamy."

People want to imagine that polygamy is a terrible thing, simply because it clashes with our cultural views, and the negative connotations we have received from the news on the FLDS events.

The reality is, our culture also is accepting of shacking up, having multiple sex partners, endorsing homosexual marriage, etc. Clearly not a morally superior group to be judging others, eh? Yet we pounce upon people who enter into a marriage covenant in a manner different than the standard, and it is abhorred.

Last night on PBS' History's Mysteries, they researched an anonymously written 1856 book on Mormon Polygamy. It talked about a woman refusing to enter into polygamy being stripped naked, tied to a tree, and whipped until her blood ran to the ground. Both LDS and non-LDS scholars were talked with (Terryl Givens and Sarah Barringer Gordon) concerning it. It was determined that the book was fiction, and poor fiction (it even got Joseph Smith's death wrong) at that. When the owner of the book found this out, she expressed disappointment that it wasn't historical! Such are the attitudes of our culture today, wanting to see the worst in another culture.

[MichaelPAGuy]

What issues could I have more than Joseph marrying a 14 year old and not believing?

[rameumptom]

In the early 1800s, it was common for 14 year old girls to marry. Once again, it is a cultural thing.

In that time period, child birth was very dangerous and in some areas dropped the life expectancy rate of women down to about 30-35 years of age. IOW, 14 years old was middle aged!

Joseph sealed himself to many people, including men being sealed as his sons. His view was not a sexual one, but one of combining people you loved or were commanded by God to be sealed with, to one big family in God. You should note that those women and men who prayed concerning these issues all received a strong confirmation from God that they were to make this sacrifice. That being the case, who are we to judge?

Now that women live into their 80s, 40 is the half-life and so we have raised the age of marriage by several years. Cultures change how the world looks at things. Joseph was espoused to the virgin Mary, who was probably about 15 years of age at the time, and Joseph in his 30s. Sound familiar? Yet no one condemns that relationship because it was farther into the past.

The true issue here should not be a cultural hang up, but to determine if Joseph really was called of God.

I could decry the murderous actions of Moses and Joshua, as they annhilated villages of women and children, but I know God commanded it. Just where do we draw the line on what is culturally mandated and what is not?

[Hemidakota]

However, what is given already, if you could list a name Michael.

Edited July 1, 2008 by Hemidakota

[VisionOfLehi]

Lowest legal age of marriage:

CA- No minimum age with parental consent.

MA- Females 12 with parental consent and/or permission of judge.

MS- No minimum age, parental consent and/or permission of judge only. Females can be 15 and need to consent.

MO- 15, with parental consent. Possibly younger under certain circumstances.

NH, NY, TX- Males 14, females 13, with parental AND judge consent.

States with a minimum age with consent at 15-18 which can be lower (usually down to 14) under special circumstances, due to pregnancy, with parental consent (and usually a court order):

AK, AZ, AR, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, LA, ME, MD, NV, NJ, NM, NC, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, VA, WA, WV, WY, PR

Total: 36/50 states, or 72%, which allow the marriage of individuals under the age of 15-18, depending on the judge and parents.

[MichaelPAGuy]

List what name?

[Dale]

Helen Mar Kimball and Joseph smith had no marital relationship. All she participated in was a ceremony. She did not understand it appropriate to live with Joseph Smith or have his children at the time. She made what she thought was a marriage that would start in the eternity when she was an adult. I agree with Todd Compton that there was no sexuality in the marriage. But i reject his speculation that based on later Utah practice that such would have become a part of the marriage when she got older.

Remember in the 19th century marrying teenagers was more common. FAIR in its article on Joseph Smiths marriages to young women cited an 1850 census. I recall it indicating 41.7% of females marrying when teenagers. That the husbands tended to be 10 years older than the teenage brides.

With marrying Helen Kimball is the objection Joseph Smith was a pedophile. Accoring to solid scholarship people who married teenagers back then were not considered pedophiles. Age of consent laws were 10-13 in the U.S. at the time. Helen was of age to marry according to what i guess was Illinois law. The polygamy if she was his wife under 19th century Illinois law would be illegal.

Although i myself from a basic understanding of law which most people lack doubt her sealing was illegal under Illinois law. I doubt her marriage to Joseph Smith would meet the legal criteria for a marriage considering she confessed herself their were pretend elements in the marriage. The big one being she thought it was only a ceremony and i gather from that she felt no obligation in time that it was then right to live with Joseph Smith or have his children. Under a legal marriage a couple really agrees to start a marriage in time. If she thought the time wording in her sealing was meaningless it was meaningless in time which would not be what polygamy Illinois law was meant to prevent.

I see a possible constitutionally protected polygamy practice as long as the couple is not agreeing to violate civil law. Agreeing to live polygamy in mortality would be illegal as co-habitation would take place.

But if the couple were involved in some ceremony where marital rights in mortality were not being agreed to would the ceremony violate the law? Or would the unusual understanding of eternal marriage and polygamy for them starting only in the afterlife make it a pretend marriage ceremony? Would them agreeing not to start the marriage in time invalidate the time vows they said as like such vows in a movie or play? Saying vows does not mean one is married according to 19th century Illinois law.

Judge Philips in the Temple Lot case had to legally invalidate the claim certain women were wives of Joseph Smith. Published cards in Nauvoo were signed by the very LDS witnesses who later said Joseph Smith was a polygamist. These cards denied the truth of the claims by John C. Bennett and others that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. I recall him referring to a published card by Lorenzo Snow in his decision. Eliza Snow his sister and some of the other had signed similar cards. As a Judge he recognized under law by them signing such arlier cards it made their later affidavits and statements perjury under the law. He knew even if their were truth to their claims they invalidated the usefulness of their testimony in court.

He was also concerned in the LDS leaders zeal to prove Joseph Smith a polygamist in his court had brought certain key wives before him. Lucy Walker and Melissaa Lott Willes ( spelled Willis in some books i have) had born Joseph Smith not a single child. And if these women were as close to Joseph Smith as they sounded like they had to have his children like Emma did. I think he thought they exaggerated the nature and extent of their relationship with the prophet. He pointed out how Emma and Joseph were having kids regularly as a couple which none of these two women and those he read in the affidavits could.

The Centeplace Library i think in the LDS Issues Section has the church in court booklet online to read. I think it has his decision in it.

Anyway i see no legal basis for people thinking Joseph Smith would have gone to jail for polygamy. I see a legal basis his private possible activities notwithstanding for him to be innocent legally atleast of the polygamy charges. At most i see for practicing sealing he would have been if moral violations were involved been guilty of violating church law at the time. But in no way was Joseph Smith also not a pedophile under laws at the time. Under are legal system a man is innocent unless all the charges stand up in court which none of them did in the Temple Lot case.

Really the claims of polygamy were much more complete in the Temple Lot case than William Laws bunch came up with.

Edited July 2, 2008 by Dale

[prospectmom]

Wow people get caught up in such little things ... there are major differences in the 1800's and now please................

[rameumptom]

I would like to state that Joseph Smith was an amazing man. Literary and Jewish scholar Harold Bloom stated that Joseph Smith was a genius and a great kabbalist. He did not know how Joseph Smith guessed at so many things believed by ancient Jews, but knew that the religion would go far in his teachings. And he also stated that Pres Monson was also such a man, and would definitely move the Church forward (The American Religion, Bloom). Bloom was not so nice on other religions created in the 19th century America.

Joseph translated a 550 page book in 60 days. This book has lots of twists and turns. It goes forwards and backwards on history lines, and ties them all in together. Margaret Barker, Methodist preacher and OT expert, stated that Lehi's Vision of the Tree of Life fits in perfectly with 600 BC Jerusalem and the pre-Deuteronomist temple. Somehow, Joseph was able to include in the book over 40 proper names that were later found to be valid and in context, whether Hebrew or Egyptian name.

Joseph prophesied of the Civil War, a world war that would begin when England called for assistance, and the times later when "slaves would rise up against their masters marshalled in the disciplines of war," that easily references the fall of the Soviet Union. The rise of the remnant slaves against the Gentile nations seems to suggest the radical Arab attacks on the West we are now going through (D&C 87).

Joseph gave a code of health that was scoffed at until the 1960s (and until the 1990s by the tobacco industry), when the Surgeon General of the USA stated that tobacco caused cancer. And the prophecy was correct in how alcohol and tobacco would be a devious and evil canker on society. It isn't a wonder that Mormons tend to live ten years longer and healthier than the average American.

Joseph showed us how we can all have theophanies (ascend to the throne of God) with the temple and the Book of Mormon. And now we see how such were common place in the ancient writings of Jews and Christians!

He restored concepts such as: continuing revelation, modern scripture, three degrees of heaven, the Godhead, eternal marriage, saving one's ancestors through baptism for the dead, priesthood authority and power, and living prophets and apostles.

Amazing he could receive and write all the revelations, build several cities, build two temples, etc., while being driven from place to place, beaten and tarred, arrested and jailed, etc. How could he have accomplished so much under so much duress?

Only the power of God could accomplish so much. Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! I Thank God for Joseph Smith!

[Dale]

"The reader who may find it difficult to accept the idea that Joseph was in any way involved in these developements may find some comfort in the viewpoint expressed in the note at the beginning of this book. Joseph Smith's prophetic spirit and insights are no guarantee of infallability. If he stayed in relation to these esoteric speculations, let it be remembered none-theless that he has stirred the minds and hearts of many persons with the exciting inspiration that he demonstrated in other aspects of his prophetic leadership." (The Founding Prophet, An Administative Biography of Joseph Smith, Jr., Maurice L. Draper, pg.217, Herald House 1991)

I have no room in my personal theology for all Joseph Smith's ideas, but i do for alot of his ideas. If i got caught up on focusine solely on his esoteric speculations i would miss the good in his ministry. For us Community of Christ members we can treat some of the prophets ideas as speculation. With LDS such an approach would not work as the inspiration whether one likes the truth or not it is still of God as long as official church doctrine.

To me i have issues with Joseph Smith. I am not sure it is wise up to this point leaving over issues. I don't believe in plural marriage. To me i stay with what i stay for and will not leave my current church for what i don't like. As one who has studied a bit if comparative religions i know not a single church i could join would not present troublesome issues for me. The trick i think is to learn to tolerate what you detest if staying a member has great benifits you should hate to lose.