Though Shalt Not Covet...Lets Talk

[captain_nephi]

Thou shalt not covet.

Seems simple enough--but as I am learning it is a loaded commandment.

I understand that developing envy of those that have what we don't have is not only unhealthy but leads to a lack of gratitude for what we do have.

Having said that, we are also taught to look to the stars, and not the earth. To aspire to be all we could be.

It could be said that if our forfathers did not covet the freedoms of others, we would still all be British subjects.

So, where to draw the line.

Also, is there a flip side to covet. So many commandments seem to have a lot of meaning wrapped around them. For example, Adultery has come to mean any inappropriate sexual contact and even unmodest dress and inpure thoughts.

So does though shalt not covet have a similar depth? Is there an aspect of not living a life soooo extravagant that you can make others feel like they are forever falling short.

In our society that is so hyper-focused on entertainment and sporting stars--who make rediculous piles of money--and others who have amassed fortunes and own multiple homes, cars, etc. etc. Is there a problem with that?

Like to hear your feedback.

[Fiannan]

Thou shalt not covet.

Seems simple enough--but as I am learning it is a loaded commandment.

I understand that developing envy of those that have what we don't have is not only unhealthy but leads to a lack of gratitude for what we do have.

Having said that, we are also taught to look to the stars, and not the earth. To aspire to be all we could be.

It could be said that if our forfathers did not covet the freedoms of others, we would still all be British subjects.

So, where to draw the line.

Also, is there a flip side to covet. So many commandments seem to have a lot of meaning wrapped around them. For example, Adultery has come to mean any inappropriate sexual contact and even unmodest dress and inpure thoughts.

So does though shalt not covet have a similar depth? Is there an aspect of not living a life soooo extravagant that you can make others feel like they are forever falling short.

In our society that is so hyper-focused on entertainment and sporting stars--who make rediculous piles of money--and others who have amassed fortunes and own multiple homes, cars, etc. etc. Is there a problem with that?

Like to hear your feedback.

What's interesting is that in the 10 Comandments -- as interpreted by Jews -- a man is not supposed to covet his nieghbor's wife or other's property. Women are not to covet other people's property. The exclusion of women coveting after a married man is that in a polygamist religion a single woman COULD covet after a married man because she could also become his wife without taking him from his original wife (wives).

[Heavenguard]

Well, let's look at what the bible says first.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Coveting is the wanting of that particular thing. If you see a car commercial and you think "Oh, that's a nice car, I would like to buy that", coveting has not occurred. You did not with to take something that belonged to someone. You simply wanted something that did not belong to anyone (or rather, was free to belong to anyone, given proper payment). Coveting isn't wanting what isn't yours, it's wanting what belongs to someone else.

That said, things like freedom have no limited amount. If someone gains freedom, another does not lose it (very specific scenarios aside). Also, there's a difference between coveting someone's freedom and fighting for justice, I think.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being rich; David was obviously rich, so were Job and Abraham. Being obsessed with it and living with money as your goal is a problem, however, because we're supposed to live with God as our goals. God doesn't say "don't have smart business practises", but he does look at your heart. Is money your goal in life, or is it just a consequence of life?

What's interesting is that in the 10 Comandments -- as interpreted by Jews -- a man is not supposed to covet his nieghbor's wife or other's property. Women are not to covet other people's property. The exclusion of women coveting after a married man is that in a polygamist religion a single woman COULD covet after a married man because she could also become his wife without taking him from his original wife (wives).

I'd just like to point out that your neighbour, in this case, can only be a man, and not a woman. Women held no status in society and could not own anything anyway. Women did not have their own money, possessions, land, houses, etc., and only had those through their fathers, husbands, sons and other male relatives. Only in exceptional cases did women actually possess things like that. I wouldn't say it's so much the condoning of plural marriage than the legalese regarding society's norms.

Edited July 4, 2008 by Heavenguard

[skalenfehl]

Whenever we read in the Bible about coveting, it is clear to me that coveting refers to things that would be detrimental to our spirituality.

Ex. 20: 17

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

What are covetous people associated with?

1 Cor. 5: 10-11

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Now, Christ did sit down with the sinners, but his reply was that the healthy need not a physician. Aspiring the better things in life is not an evil thing.

The 13th Article of Faith:

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

[Moksha]

Here is another translation that is a bit more understandable.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (The Message)

9-13 - I wrote you in my earlier letter that you shouldn't make yourselves at home among the sexually promiscuous. I didn't mean that you should have nothing at all to do with outsiders of that sort. Or with crooks, whether blue or white-collar. Or with spiritual phonies, for that matter. You'd have to leave the world entirely to do that! But I am saying that you shouldn't act as if everything is just fine when a friend who claims to be a Christian is promiscuous or crooked, is flip with God or rude to friends, gets drunk or becomes greedy and predatory. You can't just go along with this, treating it as acceptable behavior. I'm not responsible for what the outsiders do, but don't we have some responsibility for those within our community of believers? God decides on the outsiders, but we need to decide when our brothers and sisters are out of line and, if necessary, clean house.

[SmilingRedhead]

As others have said, I believe there is nothing wrong with wanting and striving towards gaining and achieving bigger and greater things. (In a spiritual sense, isn't that why we're here on earth...?)

The issues are the attitude with which we look towards those who already have what we'd like to have and also our priorities in life.

If our relationship with the Lord and our other personal relationships are at the top of our priorities, whilst flourishing and growing in other aspects of our life through humble, honest work and harbouring no ill feelings towards others who have more than us, then I don't see there is a 'coveting' problem.

[Guest Username-Removed]

As far as basketball stars making loads of money .... I actually am friends of a very famous basketball player. I got to know him several years ago when I was very active in the ATV performance industry. I am also an acquaintance with many of his friends, including and ex-NFL football player, and a prominent Mt Hood millionaire.

I can tell you, but I'm sure I won’t convince you, that aspiring simply to have a lot of money is not where its at. Having the Gospel is worth a lot more and provides more comfort than any amount of money can. All the RVs, toys, mansions, Personal assistants, just cant be compared to belonging to the true church.

Besides, having all the money is a lot of work. People are constantly trying to take it away. Me, I never really cared how much money he had. Which is probably why we became friends .... he trusts me. From what I've seen, its an incredible burden.

Im not saying good people cant handle the money. But as they say ....

Matt. 19: 24

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

But if you still want to be rich ... then here is some good advice ...

Matt. 6: 33

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Edited July 5, 2008 by WordFLOOD

[Fiannan]

The very wording of the Ten Commandments, a chief pillar of American public morality then as now, presupposes polygamy. In Deuteronomy, the commandment not to "covet" is divided into two parts. The command not to covet the neighbor's spouse is addressed only to men, and the command not to covet the neighbor's house, field, etc., is addressed to all of the people of Israel. A standard Torah commentary used in my temple puts it this way: "Because men could have more than one wife, an unmarried woman could covet another's husband and even end up married to him."

Polygamy? It's positively biblical | Philadelphia Inquirer | 05/18/2008

Gotta disagree Heavenguard...women were also considered people in the Old Testament. IN a polygamist religion a single woman can yearn for one day being married to a man who is already married so in a sense she is not coveting the unattainable -- or placed in a situation where she may be tempted to do harm to his wife so she can take her place.

[hethathathears]

I would like to break the chain of thought here a little about coveting. In our day and age, our wives and our daughters are asked to dress modestly as a sign that they are daughters of their Heavenly Father. But another reason is for the men around them. I heard a radio program about a month ago that spoke on the subject of modesty. The husband of the speaker confessed to her that men have the ability to see cladly dressed and immodest women throughout the day, and fantasize about them at any given time. I believe that it's these fantasizes that come under the realms of coveting in our day and age, something that we need to be very careful of.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5

for this reason we should Cast down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. 2 Corinth 10:5

[captain_nephi]

Along those lines...

Although, there truly is no limit to how much wealth a man may earn--as long as he does it fairly and with integrity--does that mean he has the right to spend it as he sees fit? Is not all that we have from God?

Where much is given is not much expected? Is that why it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of an needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven? Are rich men taking the blessing of heaven that could be used to help build Zion, but are instead used for a vacation home in the Hamptions?

Also, consider the possibility that if it is appropriate for people to dress modestly to help those struggling with chastity--as one of many reasons to dress modest--would not a modest lifestyle--regardless of your income level--be a similar practice with regard to coveting.

Also, what is a reasonable lifestyle? House, 2 cars, savings, health insurance, life insurance, 401 K, college savings, 2 vacations a year, club dues, etc. etc.

A lot of it seems prudent, but in our quest to a guaranteed lifestyle, have we trampled upon our commitment to building up of Zion (time, talents, and means).

When other parts of the world live on $2 a day--or are starving to death--are we too high on the economic food chain?

just some thoughts.

Edited July 7, 2008 by captain_nephi

[NateHowe]

Covetousness and seeking after good gifts are very different things. When we covet, we allow ourselves to become obsessed with the object of our desire. This obsession impairs our ability to feel the Spirit.

In contrast, seeking good gifts is necessary to temporal and spiritual salvation. For example, I seek after those things which will help my wife and son to be healthy, clothed, fed, sheltered, etc. Although I am seeking these things, the pursuit of them does not stand between me and the Lord. Rather, I am fulfilling the stewardship He gave me over them.

[captain_nephi]

Covetousness and seeking after good gifts are very different things. When we covet, we allow ourselves to become obsessed with the object of our desire. This obsession impairs our ability to feel the Spirit.

In contrast, seeking good gifts is necessary to temporal and spiritual salvation. For example, I seek after those things which will help my wife and son to be healthy, clothed, fed, sheltered, etc. Although I am seeking these things, the pursuit of them does not stand between me and the Lord. Rather, I am fulfilling the stewardship He gave me over them.

Totally agree.

But, I am talking about our stewardship over all that we receive and how some a certain lifestyle can cause strife and coveting in others.

Is there a responsibility to live a modest lifestyle? And what exactly is that?

[SmilingRedhead]

Are you asking whether there is a responsibility to live a modest lifestyle so others won't covet what we have?

Well, surely we aren't responsible for the actions and thoughts of others?

If our intention for having lots and being 'the greatest' is so others can covet what we have, then we are out of balance with out priorities and we will be judged accordingly.

[pam]

This is probably just a lame attempt at humor..but along the subject line. When my boys see a car they like and say..."I want THAT car." I respond by saying...you don't want THAT car you want one LIKE it." Again this was only meant for humor...but then I try to explain to them about coveting things they don't have.

[captain_nephi]

A

Well, surely we aren't responsible for the actions and thoughts of others?

Yes and no. Being asked to dress modestly is no some part due to the fact that dressing immodestly can affect those around us.

Don't you think?

[captain_nephi]

This is probably just a lame attempt at humor..but along the subject line. When my boys see a car they like and say..."I want THAT car." I respond by saying...you don't want THAT car you want one LIKE it." Again this was only meant for humor...but then I try to explain to them about coveting things they don't have.

Don't know if you were referring to my original post, but it is no joke. But a very sincere question.

Everyone has the right to enjoy the fruits of the labors--clearly. But everyone also has stewardship of those fruits. So when is too much, too much? When should we as saints put millions into a scholarship fund for other people to enjoy, rather than build a ultra-luxurious vacation home.

Is it okay to stockpile wealth to ensure a lavish retirement rather than help our fellow man?

And how does this all play into coveting and possibly the whole idea around a united order?

[SmilingRedhead]

Well to an extent... Dressing immodestly can have various effects: Making others feel uncomfortable around us, others having impure thoughts and people tend to act differently when they dress immodestly.

But again, it is still down to the individual whether they chose to sin or not...

A woman dressing immodestly is not responsible for a man's choice to rape her purely because she wasn't wearing much. Just like a bank isn't responsible for being robbed purely for having 'lovely looking' money in it...

[pam]

Don't know if you were referring to my original post, but it is no joke. But a very sincere question.

Everyone has the right to enjoy the fruits of the labors--clearly. But everyone also has stewardship of those fruits. So when is too much, too much? When should we as saints put millions into a scholarship fund for other people to enjoy, rather than build a ultra-luxurious vacation home.

Is it okay to stockpile wealth to ensure a lavish retirement rather than help our fellow man?

And how does this all play into coveting and possibly the whole idea around a united order?

Was not directed at your OP as humor. It was my way of being able to teach my teenage boys who want everything that anyone else has about coveting. With a little humor thrown in. As I so stated a lame attempt but nothing more. Your question was sincere and I apologize if you took my comment as something more.

[MarginOfError]

I often find myself coveting Pam's ginger bread man

[SmilingRedhead]

I often find myself coveting Pam's ginger bread man

HAHAHA! Yeah, he looks rather tasty!

[pam]

Thanks guys...you showed there can be a little humor even in serious subject. Now...back to the topic at hand.

[MrNirom]

As used in the scriptures, to covet is to envy someone or to have an excessive desire for something.

Thou shalt not covet thine own property, D&C 19: 26.

Now there is a thought!

And the example it takes you to is: Acts 5

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Edited July 9, 2008 by MrNirom

[Still_Small_Voice]

Besides, having all the money is a lot of work. People are constantly trying to take it away. Me, I never really cared how much money he had. Which is probably why we became friends .... he trusts me. From what I've seen, its an incredible burden.

This is what I've also found in life. The more material possessions one acquires, the more work it is. You don't own your possessions, they own you.

[tefor]

I just finished listening to an amazing series of sermons called "Money, Debt, and Your Stuff: Why the Devil Takes MasterCard." It has a lot to say about "affluenza", greed, and the joys of giving. Even though the speaker (Tim Lucas) isn't LDS, nearly everything he has to say on the subject is right on the money (pun intended). He's REALLY big on tithing, and makes a very good case for paying on the gross rather than the net. (He's also one of the most dynamic speakers I have heard in a LONG time and is loads of fun to listen to. He's also highly thought-provoking.) You can access the series at www.liquidchurch.com by going to Media Library, clicking on Message Archives, and scrolling toward the bottom. Alternately, you can get them on iTunes by searching for "Liquid Church."

Edited July 10, 2008 by tefor
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