Sorting It Out

[annelizayoung]

Having read the Book of Mormon, I find it fascinating. Afterwards I had some dialogue with some nice folk who are RLDS I am very confused as to which way to go. The views of the RLDS seem more compatible with the Protestant churches I attended growing up.

I read the Book of Abraham and it gave me an eerie feeling. It doesn't seem right to me. The discussion of Kolob, etc. makes me very skeptical. And I was interested when some RLDS people told me that they did not believe the Book of Abraham was scripture. Yet, I am confused how Smith can translate the Book of Mormon and also the Book of Abraham and one be scripture and the other not be scripture.

Then I read Ann Eliza Young's book (that's where I got my name) and I found myself very sympathetic to her and also to Emma. The idea of celestial Marriage really is hard to accept. Reading the accounts of the wives broke my heart.

Anyone got some thoughts?

AEY

[Jason]

Um...yeah. Stick with your protestant Church.

[annelizayoung]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 29 2004, 06:24 PM

Um...yeah.  Stick with your protestant Church.

Are you ex-LDS or ex-RLDS ?

AEY

[Guest PantherMan]

Annelizayoung,

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ. They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

If you are confused about which way to go...do as Smith did and what James directs... "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith nothing waivering for he that waivers is like the waves of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." James 5 1-2

If you have an eerie feeling about the Book of Abraham then you must not understand it...there's more than meets the eye than just Kolob..."And the Lord shown unto me Abraham the intellegences (spirits of people) that were organized before the world was and among all these were many of the noble and great ones. And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirit and he saw that they were good ; and he said unto me Abraham thou art one of them thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

Remember 2 Tim 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear but of power and of love and of a sound mind."

~~~Yet, I am confused how Smith can translate the Book of Mormon and also the Book of Abraham and one be scripture and the other not be scripture.~~~

That puzzles me too but the same thing that happened to Joseph Smith and people not accepting of him and the doctrine which was given to him happened to all the Prophets in all the ages... Look at Christ himself...He brought forth the gospel and because the people wanted to keep following the law of moses which it all boils down to and didnt want to change from their ways they decided to reject his words and curcify our God! Joseph Smith had the gospel restored through him, commanded of God but through others people have rejected him and the revelations given to him saying there is no such thing as revelation in our day...that all is given in the Bible and we need no more Bible...isnt it said though that By the voice of two or three witnesses shall every word be established? See Matthew 18:16

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jul 29 2004, 05:24 PM

Um...yeah. Stick with your protestant Church.

You're so fired. You're supposed to be converting people to MY church.

[shanstress70]

I left the church a few months ago. Like you, I had a huge problem with polygamy, and the fact that JS married other mens' wives and a 14 year old. Other things I have a problem with are origins of the temple ceremonies, origins of the word of wisdom, and the role of women in the church. I also have a problem with being told to follow the authorities of the church and never question what they ask of you. During these times of hearing about sexual abuse being so rampant (in all churches), I think this is especially true! These are just a few of my biggest problems with the church.

I'm only telling you these things because you need to research them (and lots of other stuff) before you make your decision. If you still feel in your heart that it is the true church, go for it. But I did not.

If I did believe that JS was a prophet, and that the BoM was inspired by God, I would lean toward the RLDS church. The biggest reason for that is b/c they don't believe that polygamy was ever called by God (I agree). And I loathe some of Brigham Young's teachings. I have read some of his talks that make me want to barf! Also, women are able to have a leadership role in the RLDS church, and there are no secret temple ceremonies.

I have to say though, obviously, that I agree with Jason. But of course you have to follow your heart. Just try to find out all you can before you decide.

Good luck!

[annelizayoung]

Originally posted by PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 07:12 PM

...the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ. They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

Is this so? I saw a copy of the Book of Mormon on a RLDS website.

Ah, here's the link: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/bofm/default.htm

AEY

[annelizayoung]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jul 29 2004, 07:16 PM

I left the church a few months ago. Like you, I had a huge problem with polygamy, and the fact that JS married other mens' wives and a 14 year old. Other things I have a problem with are origins of the temple ceremonies, origins of the word of wisdom, and the role of women in the church. I also have a problem with being told to follow the authorities of the church and never question what they ask of you. During these times of hearing about sexual abuse being so rampant (in all churches), I think this is especially true! These are just a few of my biggest problems with the church.

I'm only telling you these things because you need to research them (and lots of other stuff) before you make your decision. If you still feel in your heart that it is the true church, go for it. But I did not.

If I did believe that JS was a prophet, and that the BoM was inspired by God, I would lean toward the RLDS church. The biggest reason for that is b/c they don't believe that polygamy was ever called by God (I agree). And I loathe some of Brigham Young's teachings. I have read some of his talks that make me want to barf! Also, women are able to have a leadership role in the RLDS church, and there are no secret temple ceremonies.

I have to say though, obviously, that I agree with Jason. But of course you have to follow your heart. Just try to find out all you can before you decide.

Good luck!

Wow. Lot's of thought provoking things in your post.

Thank you so very much.

AEY

[Maureen]

Originally posted by PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 06:12 PM

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ. They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

PantherMan - Have you lost your marbles? About the only thing that's true in this paragraph is:

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.

M.

[Jason]

Im ex-LDS and ex-mormon fundamentalist (eg polygamous churches) The reason you have problems with the Book of Abraham is because it has nothing to do with Abraham. The Book of Mormon is overall a "christian" text, but it is no more scripture than your run of the mill non-fiction christian novel.

Please look long and deep into the mysteries of mormonism before you dunk. I'd like to offer a quote from one of the Apostolic Fathers, St Ireneaus, Bishop of Lyons, who lived in the early 2nd century:

"Error, indeed, is never set forth in its naked deformity, lest, being thus exposed, it should at once be detected. But it is craftily decked out in an attractive dress, so as, by its outward form, to make it appear to the inexperienced (ridiculous as the expression may seem) more true than the truth itself." (Against Heresies)

Read that over and over before you do anything else. God bless you.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Maureen+Jul 29 2004, 06:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Jul 29 2004, 06:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 06:12 PM

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.  They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith. 

PantherMan - Have you lost your marbles? About the only thing that's true in this paragraph is:

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.

M.

That is true, Maureen, but there is another side of the story. The CoC has downplayed the role the BoM plays in the church, and it has forced out a lot of the traditional members, that along with a lot of changes in doctrine. The CoC is becoming more liberal protestant than anything else, IMO. It is the Restorationists (those who stopped attending the RLDS in 1984) that hold more true to the BoM and the restoration gospel.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by annelizayoung+Jul 29 2004, 06:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (annelizayoung @ Jul 29 2004, 06:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 07:12 PM

...the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.  They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

Is this so? I saw a copy of the Book of Mormon on a RLDS website.

Ah, here's the link: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/bofm/default.htm

AEY

Annelizayoung, that is actually a link to a restorationist site. But all the scriptures are online courtesy of a traditional CoC congregation at this site http://www.restoredgospel.com/

[Faerie]

well...gee, i thought this was a pro-LDS site

i can only admonish what panther said: read and pray...i personally think abraham is a wonderful book of scripture, i love the book of mormon, i have no problem whatsoever w/ a male hierarchy, brigham young wasn't the smoothest tongued prophet, but very few men of his time were, i don't accept everything that comes out of the brethern's mouth automatically..i pray about it, ponder, and usually find that i agree...that particular little nugget of advice is in reference to the prophet however...we are promised that our prophet will never lead us astray, nothing in the ole' scriptures about an idiot bishop, believe me..i've had a few idiot bishops and stake presidents...i don't fully understand polygamy, but i also believe that is why the Lord took that practice away..we as humans are simply not cut out to understand it and accept it in this mortal state...perhaps J.S. got carried away w/ it, I don't know..I also know that his life was ended rather abruptly, so perhaps he made a mistake...that doesn't detract from the gospel...so emma smith was the inspiration for the WoW..if only more men would go to the Lord over a concern of their wives...I love the temple, find peace in the temple....

too many people in this church get hung up over one issue...it's all or nothing for them...if they can't accept polygamy, the entire church must be false...i have eternity to learn and accept all of God's teachings...I don't stress over whether I fully know "the mysteries of Mormonism"...I find peace and solitude in the Mormon religion, I don't need to do research on the internet to find that...

good luck in your findings..i would spend more time OFF the internet in regards to your investigation...only God can tell you what you want to know...everything else is just circumstance...

[annelizayoung]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jul 29 2004, 08:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jul 29 2004, 08:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -annelizayoung@Jul 29 2004, 06:20 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 07:12 PM

...the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.  They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

Is this so? I saw a copy of the Book of Mormon on a RLDS website.

Ah, here's the link: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/bofm/default.htm

AEY

Annelizayoung, that is actually a link to a restorationist site. But all the scriptures are online courtesy of a traditional CoC congregation at this site http://www.restoredgospel.com/

You are so kind to direct me to the right site.

AEY

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jul 29 2004, 10:22 PM

well...gee, i thought this was a pro-LDS site

i can only admonish what panther said: read and pray...i personally think abraham is a wonderful book of scripture, i love the book of mormon, i have no problem whatsoever w/ a male hierarchy, brigham young wasn't the smoothest tongued prophet, but very few men of his time were, i don't accept everything that comes out of the brethern's mouth automatically..i pray about it, ponder, and usually find that i agree...that particular little nugget of advice is in reference to the prophet however...we are promised that our prophet will never lead us astray, nothing in the ole' scriptures about an idiot bishop, believe me..i've had a few idiot bishops and stake presidents...i don't fully understand polygamy, but i also believe that is why the Lord took that practice away..we as humans are simply not cut out to understand it and accept it in this mortal state...perhaps J.S. got carried away w/ it, I don't know..I also know that his life was ended rather abruptly, so perhaps he made a mistake...that doesn't detract from the gospel...so emma smith was the inspiration for the WoW..if only more men would go to the Lord over a concern of their wives...I love the temple, find peace in the temple....

too many people in this church get hung up over one issue...it's all or nothing for them...if they can't accept polygamy, the entire church must be false...i have eternity to learn and accept all of God's teachings...I don't stress over whether I fully know "the mysteries of Mormonism"...I find peace and solitude in the Mormon religion, I don't need to do research on the internet to find that...

good luck in your findings..i would spend more time OFF the internet in regards to your investigation...only God can tell you what you want to know...everything else is just circumstance...

Faerie: "...that particular little nugget of advice is in reference to the prophet however...we are promised that our prophet will never lead us astray, nothing in the ole' scriptures about an idiot bishop, believe me.."

Actually, I have read this about 'leaders', not just the prophet. To me, leaders mean bishops as well. Here are a few of them:

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)

"Follow your leaders who have been duly ordained and have been publicly sustained, and you will not be led astray."

Boyd K. Packer (General Conference, Oct. 1992; Ensign, Nov. 1992)

"The Lord Almighty leads this Church, and he will never suffer you to be led astray if you are found doing your duty. You may go home and sleep as sweetly as a babe in its mother's arms, as to any danger of your leaders leading you astray, for if they should try to do so the Lord would quickly sweep them from the earth."

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 289, 1862.

Faerie: "so emma smith was the inspiration for the WoW..if only more men would go to the Lord over a concern of their wives...I love the temple, find peace in the temple...."

What she's talking about, ALY, is that supposedly Emma had a problem with the men hanging out in her house all day spitting tobacco juice everywhere. She complained to JS, and supposedly God told him that no one should use it. And since Emma drank tea and coffee, he felt the need to take something from her as well. So the Lord said no tea or coffee (or alcohol). All the while, Porter Rockwell was operating a bar on the premises of the inn where Joseph and Emma lived - funded by JS.

Faerie: "...if they can't accept polygamy, the entire church must be false..."

Although I do not fit into this category, b/c I have so many more problems than just polygamy, this is kind of true. If one does not believe that polygamy was not something sanctioned by God, then there is no way that JS was a true prophet. Therefore, the BoM means nothing, and yes, that would mean the entire church would be false.

By the way, my info came from the book, "Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith". That may be a good book for you to read. It isn't an anti book, and I know many Mormons who have read it. It simply gives you the info that is in my opinion about as true as one can get, as evidenced to me by the huge amount of references (about 1/4 of the book!). The thing that stuck with me the most from this book is how Emma was treated so poorly after Joseph's passing. Brigham said some horrible things about her - all b/c she never embraced polygamy. This book points out that she was a wonderful woman. She took so many people into her house and cared for them when they were sick, or had no where else to go.

Sorry, didn't mean to write a book!

[Spencer]

I feel like this thread is leading people away from the church, and that really bothers me, thats not what this site is intended for.

Yes everyone of different faiths should be able to come here and discuss there beliefs, but I dont like such comments telling another to chose another faith. Youre asking the wrong party to confirm the truth to you.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all his rightousness, and the same shall be added unto you.

Go to him who knows all, and ask humbly in his name with faith.

Spencer

[shanstress70]

Hi Spencer,

She asked for opinions and I gave her mine. I actually expected there to be one or two people who said negative things about the issue, and the rest to say positive things. I expect that later in the day, this will be the case.

I would like to point out that the things I posted aren't 'anti' stuff. It's pretty much all factual to the extent that we know about things. I was sure to give a source where appropriate, or to state that it was my opinion. I don't think that any of this is stuff that no one on the board hasn't heard about before, whether they believe it or not. And you all choose to believe, since you think that either they aren't true, or they aren't a big enough issue to get you to leave the church. And that's the way it should be.

IMO, you should know about the history of the church before you make up your mind about whether or not to join. I think a lot of people research it, find out about all these things, still decide to join, and never leave. I'm just trying to save someone the headache that I personally went through when I came to the belief that it wasn't true. I wish I had researched it more.

I would also like to add that 'anti' sites aren't the way to go. Many people do lie about the church, and the sad thing is that most of them do it in the name of 'God'. I personally believe that Mormons that try to live well and treat others well will go to heaven, along with others who do the same (not a different heaven).

Good luck to you, Anne. And Spencer, I understand your position, and I hope this clarifies my intention.

[Spencer]

You were not the only on to respond here Shan. Dont think my comment was directed at you, i just dont like the idea as a whole. I feel responsible.

Spencer

[shanstress70]

AEY, I apologize if you came here wanting to hear only the positives of the church. I guess I assumed you wanted both sides. I will TRY to not continue in this thread, unless I am addressed (or my assertions are challenged). Good luck to you!

[Faerie]

i know how the WoW came about...and I still don't see a problem with it....*shrug*

[annelizayoung]

Originally posted by Spencer@Jul 30 2004, 06:16 AM

I feel like this thread is leading people away from the church, and that really bothers me, thats not what this site is intended for.

Yes everyone of different faiths should be able to come here and discuss there beliefs, but I dont like such comments telling another to chose another faith. Youre asking the wrong party to confirm the truth to you.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all his rightousness, and the same shall be added unto you.

Go to him who knows all, and ask humbly in his name with faith.

Spencer

I appreciate your comments and the others. I do not need some to tell me what to choose, I will take that responsibility. I am interested in understanding the opinions of others and learning about the differences between the LDS and RLDS. The input has been good so far and I will have more questions when I have a bit more time.

AEY (who happens to be a he not a she)

[Maureen]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jul 29 2004, 07:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jul 29 2004, 07:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Maureen@Jul 29 2004, 06:51 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--PantherMan@Jul 29 2004, 06:12 PM

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.  They changed their name and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith. 

PantherMan - Have you lost your marbles? About the only thing that's true in this paragraph is:

the RLDS faith is now known as the Community of Christ.

M.

That is true, Maureen, but there is another side of the story. The CoC has downplayed the role the BoM plays in the church, and it has forced out a lot of the traditional members, that along with a lot of changes in doctrine. The CoC is becoming more liberal protestant than anything else, IMO. It is the Restorationists (those who stopped attending the RLDS in 1984) that hold more true to the BoM and the restoration gospel.

Hey Jenda - I think I understand the differences between CofC and the Restorationists but PantherMan's strange information has me shaking my head. I think PantherMan should come back and explain his comments:

and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

What does he mean lack of funding and what Government is he talking about. Sounds like a Suspense thriller to me and nothing I've read about concerning the CofC.

The CofC website says this:

Scripture

The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry.

AEY - If I were you, I would check the CofC's website:

http://www.cofchrist.org/

M.

[Ray]

annelizayoung,

As a rule of thumb, you can pretty much ignore what people say when they say something contrary to what you know to be true, and you can also consider that person to be, shall we say, less than credible.

For instance, if you know that the Book of Mormon is inspired scripture, and someone tells you that it isn’t, you can pretty much ignore what that person is saying and consider that person to be a less than credible witness. It may be that the person simply doesn’t know that the Book of Mormon is inspired scripture, but someone who will go beyond saying they “don’t know” as far as saying “it isn’t true”, when you know that it is true, is not a person to rely upon, whether they’re talking about the Book of Mormon, polygamy, following leaders in the Church, or anything else.

Now the question is: How do you determine whether something is true or not? You can find people with different perspectives on every issue you can imagine, so how can you know whether the testimony from any witness is true or not? Even people with the best of intentions can be wrong, you know. Can you think of anyone who will always tell you the truth? I can only think of one person, or actually more than one as long as they are all God, and I recommend that you speak and listen to Him.

Btw, if you’re only interested in hearing or reading something you haven’t heard or seen before, to help give you some more information to ponder and think about, I recommend using the “Search” feature instead of asking questions. Once you’ve been here a while you will see that the same things are being said over and over again, so instead of waiting for people to say something again you can just look at what has already been said about an issue before.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Maureen@Jul 30 2004, 08:43 AM

Hey Jenda - I think I understand the differences between CofC and the Restorationists but PantherMan's strange information has me shaking my head. I think PantherMan should come back and explain his comments:

and took the Book of Mormon out from among their Church all because of their lack of funding and that they Government wouldnt give them ANY funding unless they denouced the Book of Mormon as part of their faith.

What does he mean lack of funding and what Government is he talking about. Sounds like a Suspense thriller to me and nothing I've read about concerning the CofC.

M.

There is a rumor that has been going around for years that the church has become financially insolvent and has appealed to the World Council of Churches for funding, and that the WCC has required them to give up the BoM in order to receive those funds.

Unfortunately, like all rumors, there is an inkling of truth in it. In fact, several inklings.

With the loss of close to 1/3 of the membership of the church into restoration branches (those that bore the majority of the work, both financially and physically), the church is having some financial difficulties.

The church has looked into seeking membership in the WCC, which would require them to become more mainstream.

However, these two items are not connected with each other. The membership issue in the WCC has been present for close to 30 years and has been sought by some (not all) because they want to be more mainstream, thinking that that will give them a greater chance for reaching out (or something like that). The financial problems have only arisen in the last few years.

[Ray]

Btw, annelizayoung, if you want to read what the members of this Forum have said regarding the LDS church and the RLDS church, I particulary recommend reading this thread