Anti-Mormons

[Guest Seraphim]

Traveler and Elphaba:

Whatever conflict the two of you have, please keep it off the board.

Seraphim

[Snow]

By the way Traveler, we had at least one further conversation. That is the one where you wrote “It is my opinion that you are insane.”

I always loved that one.

Elphaba

It is my opinion that Traveler's opinion of Elphaba's insanity is stulifying... but in a nice way.

[bytor2112]

OK, I've got a question for you all. This has really puzzled me. Why are there Anti-Mormons and why do many of them fight against the LDS church? I google "Mormons" or "LDS" and it seems like half the sites are people, many who used to be Mormons, who make it their life's work to knock down the church. Why don't they give it a rest? I don't hear about anti-Lutherans or anti-Baptists or anti-Catholics. I went to Utah a while back and went to the temple square thingy and there were people handing out leaflets against the church and had rude signs. I asked one of them why they were wasting their time tearing down another religion and he just said that they loved Mormons but were afraid they were all lost and were trying to save them for Jesus. That is crap. I just told him to get a life and worry about himself.

Maybe I'm an anti-Baptist or anti-Jehovah Witness. I've had run-ins with them where they get real irate and almost violent when I tell them I'm agnostic. When I tell Mormons that they have always been nice and said that they respect my opinion, but don't share it. Cool

[/quote

If they didn't fight against the church....they would have to get a real job. Or they might turn on each other. I think it makes them feel powerful and important.

[bytor2112]

My family and I are traveling to Salt Lake for conference in October. I am hoping that the protest's will be minimal. I am preparing my kids for the worse, either way I know Conference is going to be an incredible experience.

[Elphaba]

My family and I are traveling to Salt Lake for conference in October. I am hoping that the protest's will be minimal. I am preparing my kids for the worse, either way I know Conference is going to be an incredible experience.

I hate to tell you Bytor, but these protests are despicable at Conference. I'm sorry.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

It is my opinion that Traveler's opinion of Elphaba's insanity is stulifying... but in a nice way.

"Stultifying, but in a nice way."

I love it!

Elphie

[bytor2112]

Stultifying????

[Over43]

Another item I've noticed about "Anti" agendas is that they are very closed group. A "mormon" in good standing has very little chance of postin on their forums. In fact a forum I ran across yesterday stated in its credo, "If you are an active member please do not try to post here, we don't want to hear it..." (paraphrase).

However, they apparently feel more than welcome to come here and other LDS sites and post their hate, criticize spelling, and whatever else they can manage to make sport of. Which is unfortunate because many of them spend less time "discussing" hcurch doctrine andmore time defaming individuals who are private persons, i.e. "My neighbor is LDS and...", "While on my mission my companion..."

It really is a shame.

Jon

[prisonchaplain]

Fent, I see the logic of your post...but with one proviso: Anti's cannot be missionaries unless they have Good News. I fear many of them are so fixated on the "bad news" of LDS heresy, that they cannot present the bridge to the Good News of Christ. And, indeed, some of them come from religious traditions that are suspicious of joy, humor, comfort, peace...they crave fire, brimstone, contention...spiritual warfare. Sometimes, people can be so right that they are wrong.

[mike_uk]

I have indirectly been labelled an "anti" on this board bacause of my own opinions and beliefs regarding the church and Jospeph. Yes, they are negative and can be offensive to a believer but I feel hurt and angry at times. Still I am not anti at all. I certainly dont go preaching anti stuff here. Yes I do mention my own concerns but thats it. Most members I know are amazing, kind people that I love.

I am still a member but not a believer at all now. I have been asked why I visit LDS boards and comment etc. Well I certainly dont come here to dent people's testimony. No thats never my intention. I come here becasue the church is still very much part of my life. My wife and 3 kids are fully active and love church. Most of my friends are fully believing active members. All of my wifes sisters and their husbands and children are fully active members. As are her mum and dad. I even attend once a month to help my wife with the kids in Sacrament but stay for SS and Priesthood. Most "anti's" wouldnt do that.

People just need to be careful not to label everyone that no longer believs an "anti".

[bytor2112]

Hey Fent and Mike_UK,

I totally agree and I think that most people who leave the church just kind of drift away over time and become inactive, rather than having their names removed. And some end up finding their way back......like I did.....after 21 years. The Anti's to me are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the church. I am not referring to a Pastor or friend who counsels caution to someone that may be planning to join the LDS church. They do so, hopefully, out of a lack of understanding. Anti-s are the ones that seem to have an axe to grind and are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.

Edited July 22, 2008 by bytor2112
spelling

[rameumptom]

"Stultifying, but in a nice way."

I love it!

Elphie

But isn't it somewhat redundant? To be insane in a stultifying way, kind of repeats itself....

[ktfords]

[The Anti's to me are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the church. I am not referring to a Pastor or friend who counsels caution to someone that may be planning to join the LDS church. They do so, hopefully, out of a lack of understanding. ]

If Anti's are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the Church. What is the difference when missionaries will come to my neighborhood, and tell my neighbors "mormonism is the only true christain faith" basically trying to convert them?

[Anti-s are the ones that seem to have an axe to grind and are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.]

This applies to both sides if you ask me.

Isn't the Church's axe to grind, their mission to convert everybody else? Why is the mormon church any different than any other religion? The LDS church spreads their beliefs by use of the missionary field, and they bombard the tv with commercials.

Christians, baptists and catholics will try to speak to a mormon, and consequently, labeled Anti. They are trying to spread their news as the Mormon church is doing the same.

I personally have been told by missionaries, that they do not teach exaltation (becoming a god), I know you do. This sounds like the above quote by bytor. [are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.]

If I am labeled an Anti for asking these questions of the mormon church, wouldn't the missionaries and the vase amount of commercials be considered anti-Christian, anti-catholic or anti-baptist? Can I label Mormons anti-whatever if you tell me about your beliefs? Just asking since there seems to be a double standard.

Have the people of the LDS church ever considered, it could be offensive to other faiths?

These are your beliefs, just as a Christian believes in Christianity, which is their belief.

Help me understand this..

[peanutgallery]

[The Anti's to me are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the church. I am not referring to a Pastor or friend who counsels caution to someone that may be planning to join the LDS church. They do so, hopefully, out of a lack of understanding. ]

If Anti's are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the Church. What is the difference when missionaries will come to my neighborhood, and tell my neighbors "mormonism is the only true christain faith" basically trying to convert them?

[Anti-s are the ones that seem to have an axe to grind and are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.]

This applies to both sides if you ask me.

Isn't the Church's axe to grind, their mission to convert everybody else? Why is the mormon church any different than any other religion? The LDS church spreads their beliefs by use of the missionary field, and they bombard the tv with commercials.

Christians, baptists and catholics will try to speak to a mormon, and consequently, labeled Anti. They are trying to spread their news as the Mormon church is doing the same.

I personally have been told by missionaries, that they do not teach exaltation (becoming a god), I know you do. This sounds like the above quote by bytor. [are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.]

If I am labeled an Anti for asking these questions of the mormon church, wouldn't the missionaries and the vase amount of commercials be considered anti-Christian, anti-catholic or anti-baptist? Can I label Mormons anti-whatever if you tell me about your beliefs? Just asking since there seems to be a double standard.

Have the people of the LDS church ever considered, it could be offensive to other faiths?

These are your beliefs, just as a Christian believes in Christianity, which is their belief.

Help me understand this..

When LDS do missionary work, they speak about our beliefs, our doctrine, our scriptures. When anti's do missionary work they speak about our beliefs, our scriptures, our doctrine - only they get it all wrong. If they were really trying to be missionaries, they would be telling people what they believe, not what they don't believe. They would be uplifting and have a positive spirit, not negative and full of hate.

[bytor2112]

Ktfords,

The great commission is to spread the "good news" of salvation in Christ. I do not consider members of other Christian denominations to be Anti-Mormon. Other Churches have missionaries and members who spread the gospel in neighborhoods all over the world. I live in the Bible belt and we have our fair share of door knocks and TV commercials from other faiths. It doesn't offend me that someone has a different belief system than I do. Baptists, Catholics or whomever when spreading the Gospel as they see are not Anti- Mormon in my book, even if they were to say to me, " You know the Book of Mormon is false and you are being led away to hell". That's their opinion. That doesn't make them Anti-MOrmon any more than it would make me Anti-Baptist.

Anti-Mormons are people who have "so-called full time ministries" to the Mormons and base their ministry on rhetoric and falsehoods. They lie and inflame in order to persuade. Why not just tell your own version of the Gospel as you see it and let that be what converts?

You are really hung up about Exaltation. I can't imagine a missionary or any member of the Church denying our beliefs, unless perhaps they didn't understand the context of your question or the fact that you were probably very confrontational. Here is a quote from a late Apostle concerning Salvation, Exaltation and becoming a god, not an equal with God, but becoming like him. Oh yeah, one more thing...we are Christian.

Salvation is eternal life. It is an inheritance in the highest heaven of the celestial world, the only place the family unit continues. It consists of the continuation of the family unit forever in glorious exaltation in the kingdom of God. It consists of the fullness of glory of the Father and of a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. It is not a lower or lesser state than that reserved for those who become as God is. It is godhood.- Elder Bruce R. McConkie

[StrawberryFields]

My family and I are traveling to Salt Lake for conference in October. I am hoping that the protest's will be minimal. I am preparing my kids for the worse, either way I know Conference is going to be an incredible experience.

I have had the best luck in not even making eye contact with them. They are there to upset us and to completely ignore them is best. The last time I went they were there but so were small groups of members singing hymns. I would smile that these singers and ignore the rest. :)

[utcowboy]

I will be ushering again this conference, and I enjoy watching and listening to some of the protesters. Some of the stuff they say is so funny you just have to laugh.....

[Islander]

In the other hand, I can also understand the reaction of certain members on the board. It is completely counterintuitive to spend so much time and energy engaging people whith whom you do not agree in principle and discussing doctrine that you find seriously flawed or suspect to say the least.

Many of us converts come from other religious tradition, and, it would not occur to me to go back to a RCC or Calvary Chapel forum to antagonize with them and showcase the beauty and amazing power of the true church of Christ. So if you have so adverse reaction to history and doctrine of the church, if you no longer believe and want to be associated, personally, with the worship and work of the church, logic dictates that you'd do just that. So when a person comes and begins to voice what other members perceive as anti-church rethoric they are going to react. After all, the forum was not designed for the opposition, disaffected, gnostics and heretics. I suggest that by far, the moderators allow a significant amount of leeway in what and how it is discussed. You will not get that much slack on any other board if your posts run counter clock with the forum's stated purpose.

Thus, if you are an inactive member of the church, if you have your doubts about history, fact or doctrine, venting those here will not serve any purpose since you already know what the church position is. I am not sure what the motivations would be but it may be interesting if some real work would go into developing some insight into such. Other than that, the above seems like a mystery to me still.

[bytor2112]

Ktfords,

No ax to grind here and yes we do teach what exaltation is.......yes, yes, yes, you are correct!!!!! I don't consider you or anyone else to be an Anti for asking questions.

Your experiences with some members of the church isn't typical. What was the context of the question? Were you trying to be confrontational? I mean really, the answers that you get to questions in life often depends on how you ask.

I am guessing here, but you are not LDS, right? Some people think that a belief in a God that is " a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that is three beings in one; that is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that is without body, parts, or passions; that is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present, is as heretical as a non LDS Christian believes the notion of exaltation is. I am sure that if I asked most Christians to describe God or the Trinity they would not describe him this way and might even deny that Christians believe this.

Academic debate over theology is invigorating and enlightening when done in a spirit of mutual respect. Have you ever seen the God Makers I and II ? Paid actors and a pack of lies. That is anti- mormon. Not a sincere member of another faith challenging me on my beliefs or trying to persuade me to his or her beliefs.

[ktfords]

When LDS do missionary work, they speak about our beliefs, our doctrine, our scriptures. When anti's do missionary work they speak about our beliefs, our scriptures, our doctrine - only they get it all wrong. If they were really trying to be missionaries, they would be telling people what they believe, not what they don't believe. They would be uplifting and have a positive spirit, not negative and full of hate.

I'm not talking about those idiots down at temple square, I totally disagree with them.

I'm talking about anybody who tries to speak their beliefs in love, as mormons do. Mormons goals are to convert as many as possible, as any other religion is trying to do. Mormons don't want to listen. They say "if it is not of our teaching, we won't listen". How about the open mind?

If you ask questions, most mormons tend to shut down and label that person anti, instead of listening to their believes with an open heart as you say. If you your mind was open as you ask others to do, you would listen. Right?

The questions, are usually of a nature, where I am asking for clarification only, asking them to explain this to me. Instead, the subject was denied and I'm labeled anti. If you belief it, claim it.

This is why you don't have other religions knocking on your doors, they know mormons will not listen to anything not of their teachings. This is not all mormons, I have had some really good conversations, I feel it is the majority that will not listen, no matter what any other religions has to say.

It seems to be a one-way road.

[ktfords]

Ktfords,

No ax to grind here and yes we do teach what exaltation is.......yes, yes, yes, you are correct!!!!! I don't consider you or anyone else to be an Anti for asking questions.

Your experiences with some members of the church isn't typical. What was the context of the question? Were you trying to be confrontational? I mean really, the answers that you get to questions in life often depends on how you ask.

I am guessing here, but you are not LDS, right? Some people think that a belief in a God that is " a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; that is three beings in one; that is uncreated, incorporeal, and incomprehensible; that is without body, parts, or passions; that is a spirit nothingness that is everywhere and nowhere in particular present, is as heretical as a non LDS Christian believes the notion of exaltation is. I am sure that if I asked most Christians to describe God or the Trinity they would not describe him this way and might even deny that Christians believe this.

Academic debate over theology is invigorating and enlightening when done in a spirit of mutual respect. Have you ever seen the God Makers I and II ? Paid actors and a pack of lies. That is anti- mormon. Not a sincere member of another faith challenging me on my beliefs or trying to persuade me to his or her beliefs.

Take a look on the web, you will be amazed of the amount of mud flying from both sides, particularly fairlds.org. This website and its reps, will acitively go after anyone who doesn't agree with the beliefs of the LDS church, they resort to name calling and nasty tactics.

Google Louis C. Midgley (he is a professor of BYU), he is one of the editors, he has proven he is not a nice person. He is being aggressive(without love), is he Anti?

This sounds like what the Anti's do. If it is not right, why are mormons doing it? It is just like the anti's are doing to mormons, it is not right.

Just an observation.

[Islander]

I'm not talking about those idiots down at temple square, I totally disagree with them.

I'm talking about anybody who tries to speak their beliefs in love, as mormons do. Mormons goals are to convert as many as possible, as any other religion is trying to do. Mormons don't want to listen. They say "if it is not of our teaching, we won't listen". How about the open mind?

If you ask questions, most mormons tend to shut down and label that person anti, instead of listening to their believes with an open heart as you say. If you your mind was open as you ask others to do, you would listen. Right?

The questions, are usually of a nature, where I am asking for clarification only, asking them to explain this to me. Instead, the subject was denied and I'm labeled anti. If you belief it, claim it.

This is why you don't have other religions knocking on your doors, they know mormons will not listen to anything not of their teachings. This is not all mormons, I have had some really good conversations, I feel it is the majority that will not listen, no matter what any other religions has to say.

It seems to be a one-way road.

I spent 7 years going to every congregation I could find around LA. I listened to EVERYBODY and then some. I asked hundreds of questions and for thousands of hours tried to inquire and explore. It was an experiment, a way to test my assumptions and theories. Now the search is over, I am done, I found what I was looking for and I know with absolute certainty that I have found what I was looking for. I know that God has revealed to me what I sought for so many years and it is the absolute truth.

Perhaps you have not experienced such certainty in yoru life. Perhaps you are still looking and searching and inquiring. I can understand and certainly appreciate that. As for me, I am done. You should continue your quest but you must go alone since I no longer search. I have been already in the places you are inviting me into and I found not what I sought. Questions I welcome, but only if the intent is to know or attempt to understand what I know and believe. The rest is just contention and in that I have no interest.

So, my friend, I guess you understand why I really have no interest in what other are trying to share. Been there, done that.

Edited July 22, 2008 by Islander

[bytor2112]

Well, I can't speak for other Mormons. I didn't grow up in the church, I was a Baptist convert. I really enjoy speaking to people of other faiths. I usually always learn something. Advice for future conversations with members or missionaries....it really is the Spirit of the questions. Some members are hyper-sensitive and it annoys me to no end. How else can we share our message if someone doesn't have questions. I mean, the missionaries hear a lot of "I'm not interested". When someone "genuinely" has some questions, they should be answered openly and honestly....and if they don't know the answer just say that and get back to them.

I an not a scriptorian, I read the scriptures but am not an expert on translations or Messianic prophesies. I "knew" the church was true before I ever read the Book of Mormon, before I had an in-depth understanding of LDS doctrines. The Holy Spirit. Plain and simple.

[bytor2112]

Take a look on the web, you will be amazed of the amount of mud flying from both sides, particularly fairlds.org. This website and its reps, will acitively go after anyone who doesn't agree with the beliefs of the LDS church, they resort to name calling and nasty tactics.

Google Louis C. Midgley (he is a professor of BYU), he is one of the editors, he has proven he is not a nice person. He is being aggressive(without love), is he Anti?

This sounds like what the Anti's do. If it is not right, why are mormons doing it? It is just like the anti's are doing to mormons, it is not right.

Just an observation.

I think it is fair to say that FAIR, FARMS and SHIELDS are defenders of our faith. Are some LDS people rude or not nice.... agreed. They are after all people.

The typical audience for these sites are members of the Church looking for answers to refute slanderous attacks by Anti-groups.

[utcowboy]

Reading Bytor post a thought occured to me and I felt like I should share it. Most of us don't mind questions in fact we enjoy them because they help us learn. But when we answer a question and the person doesn't like the answer, they will generally ask it again and try to reword it. After the third or forth time, I know that my patients are wearing thin. This is a personel flaw that I have to work on fixing, but it doesn't mean that I don't like questions. Does that make sense to any of you??