Listening to Spirits

[Traveler]

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen.

The Traveler

[jimuk]

The holy ghost has a tremendous influence over what we do concerning what is right and what is wrong, this is why we do indeed need this "spirit" residing with us. We need to do all we can to keep him there. Ok without him we do know right from wrong i know, but isn't it great when you feel that you have pleased your father in heaven and he is letting you know through the power of the holy ghost that he is well pleased.

I may be talking of the wrong spirit to which you refer, but a spirit non the less.

So yes a spirit can have influence over what we do.

I do think other spirits try to influence us, this is why we need the "extra" power of the holy ghost fighting in our corner, without him it is easier for bad spirits to influence/persuade us to make the wrong decisions.

[Traveler]

The holy ghost has a tremendous influence over what we do concerning what is right and what is wrong, this is why we do indeed need this "spirit" residing with us. We need to do all we can to keep him there. Ok without him we do know right from wrong i know, but isn't it great when you feel that you have pleased your father in heaven and he is letting you know through the power of the holy ghost that he is well pleased.

I may be talking of the wrong spirit to which you refer, but a spirit non the less.

So yes a spirit can have influence over what we do.

I do think other spirits try to influence us, this is why we need the "extra" power of the holy ghost fighting in our corner, without him it is easier for bad spirits to influence/persuade us to make the wrong decisions.

I am asking a question if there is anything that happenes that does not have any spirit to influence that event - good or bad.

The Traveler

[WANDERER]

I believe in the power of God. Faith in that I have.

[jimuk]

Our own spirit guides us surely, we already know right and wrong, this is why it takes us so long to grow, Our own spirit drives this mortal body, this knowing right and wrong is our free agency, when we get baptized our spirit is made stronger when we recieve the Holy ghost.

If we have a strong spirit, then no, no other spirit can influence us.

[Hemidakota]

There are two types of spirits that can guide us daily - good or bad. We choose our path daily on whom we listen too.

[jimuk]

If a person has the holy ghost with them then there is no choices to make.

[Misshalfway]

If a person has the holy ghost with them then there is no choices to make.

This is an interesting statement. As if having the holy ghost means smooth sailing in the agency department.

I won't deny that having and following and nurturing the influence makes life's decisions more sure, but I am not sure it means we have no choices to make. This life, at its very core, is a test in agency even for the most elect amongst us. I wonder if there are times when the HG is training us and then allows opportunities for righteousness to come from us independent of influence. I think righteous independence is the ultimate goal.....that whole no compulsory means idea.

[jimuk]

Hi misshalfway, if our own spirit which already knows right and wrong can be made stronger with the gift of the Holy ghost, isn't it then feasible that our knowledge to interperate between good and evil, right and wrong, made so much easier for us.

Maybe i am putting to much emphasis on the spirit of god then, but i know this spirit is the most powerful witness that we can have with us, and the more we love our father and bare witness ourselves the more powerful the spirit becomes.

I am not for one minute saying that, once we have the Holy spirit with us then we dont need to carry on striving for the approval of our heavenly father, By showing love and kindness, compassion and forgiveness, to our fellow man, and most of all to himself. So no i do not think it is plain sailing.

This is just how i feel and i would hope others will understand what i am saying.

[Hemidakota]

We are independent in a sense of making our own choices but still dependent on the Godhead for continous light. Elder McConkie remarked that we receive prophecy from this comforter and that the prophets are led by His influence.

HOLY GHOST A REVELATOR. His mission is to teach us all truth. He partakes of the things of the Father and the Son and reveals them to those who serve the Lord in faithfulness. It was through the teachings of the Comforter, or Holy Ghost, that the teachings of Jesus Christ were recalled by the apostles. It is through the teachings of the Holy Spirit that prophecy comes.

--------

THE HOLY GHOST LED ALL THE PROPHETS

THE HOLY GHOST DURING CHRIST'S MINISTRY. While Christ was here in his ministry, his disciples did not have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. He told them they could not have that Spirit while he was with them, but when he went, he would send the Comforter to be their guide. He was one of the Godhead, and while he was there in their presence, they did not have the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

It is true that the Holy Ghost came to them on occasions while Christ was yet with them. But they were in the same condition as Cornelius. They had special manifestations of the power of the Holy Ghost, but did not enjoy the gift itself, that is, they did not have the right to the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead. The Holy Ghost did speak to Peter, right in the presence of the Savior, but the gift or power to have it with him constantly while he was there, the Savior clearly told them, was unnecessary.

THE HOLY GHOST IN A FUTURE ETERNITY. This does not mean that when we come into the presence of God after the resurrection or in the millennium, we will not have the gift of the Holy Ghost, although Christ is there. When things come to that perfect state, and especially after the resurrection, I think we will be in the presence of all three-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

ANCIENT PROPHETS HAD THE HOLY GHOST. There is another point which often arises from the fact that the Savior said the Holy Ghost could not come while he was here. Many people say that the ancients never had the Holy Ghost, that he could not come until after Christ had come and died and been raised in the resurrection. You do not find the term Holy Ghost in the Old Testament, as we now have it, but you do find the Spirit of God.

The fact is all the prophets had the Holy Ghost. They were led and directed by him. And without this power they would not have been prophets. Peter said that prophecy itself "came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The Book of Moses, which is the original and perfect record of a part of Genesis, speaks of the Holy Ghost; so do the Nephite prophets, including those who lived in the era before Christ.

[Islander]

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen.

The Traveler

The bible tends to be somewhat sparse and not very detailed when it comes to "familiar spirits" and contact with them that are dead. There is Saul and Jonathan that went to a wizard and we all know how that end up. What is clear is that we should not participate in any activity that relates to invoking/disturbing the spirits of the dead. God has dealt harshly with those that insist in doing things of that nature.

It is seductive and entertaining to some. It may even seem like empowerment but in fact it is contrary to God's commandments and thus a sin. A person my choose to interpret such activity however but it is clear from the bible that we should not mess with that stuff.

[Hemidakota]

Reminds of Isaiah 8:18-20

18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 ¶ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Isaiah described a time in the last days when the world would be filled with despair, as Saul was. In that time, he says, many will seek the aid of familiar spirits, wizards, and those who "peep" and "mutter." He warns that those who seek such comfort shall receive little help, remain hungry, and continue to fret.

[Traveler]

The bible tends to be somewhat sparse and not very detailed when it comes to "familiar spirits" and contact with them that are dead. There is Saul and Jonathan that went to a wizard and we all know how that end up. What is clear is that we should not participate in any activity that relates to invoking/disturbing the spirits of the dead. God has dealt harshly with those that insist in doing things of that nature.

It is seductive and entertaining to some. It may even seem like empowerment but in fact it is contrary to God's commandments and thus a sin. A person my choose to interpret such activity however but it is clear from the bible that we should not mess with that stuff.

Interesting take on scripture - it appears to me that Jesus cast out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick.

So let me ask you directly - can one successfully persue the things of G-d without the assistance of the Holy Ghost? By this same token - can one rebell without a similar connection to unclean spirits?

Is it possible that some take too much credit to themselves and award too much blame to others? In essence is this exactly what Jesus asked us not to do?

The Traveler

[Islander]

Interesting take on scripture - it appears to me that Jesus cast out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick.

So let me ask you directly - can one successfully persue the things of G-d without the assistance of the Holy Ghost? By this same token - can one rebell without a similar connection to unclean spirits?

Is it possible that some take too much credit to themselves and award too much blame to others? In essence is this exactly what Jesus asked us not to do?

The Traveler

Traveler:

I am not sure about your question. I would just add that it is different to cast out devils and dismiss them asap, than to seek them out, ask them questions, court them in order to divine the future, know things and, specially, lucre with such activities.

If you look at "familiar spirits" in the bible you will not find one instance where God says it is OK. On the contrary.

[roytucker]

Reminds of Isaiah 8:18-20

<snip>

19 ¶ And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

<snip>

Isaiah described a time in the last days when the world would be filled with despair, as Saul was. In that time, he says, many will seek the aid of familiar spirits, wizards, and those who "peep" and "mutter." He warns that those who seek such comfort shall receive little help, remain hungry, and continue to fret.

I would like to examine your interpretation here a little more closely. The purpose of Isaiah's statement was not to instruct that getting contact from spirits is a bad thing. He is instead demonstrating the way that the people were going about it. The chapter is explaining how the house of Jacob is not looking to God, and in verse 19 he is pointing out that the people prefer to go to dubious sources for their spiritual guidance rather than ask God directly.

Interestingly, the Book of Mormon version clarifies the last statement: "should not a people seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead?" That is, if you desire contact from an angelic source, such a request should always be through God.

Roy

[roytucker]

The thread “talking to spirits” got me thinking – What influence do spirits have among us? Is everything we do associated directly or indirectly to our association with various spirits that we allow to encourage us? The concept of “agency” would apply that we are subject to (agents of) the spirits to whom we choose to listen.

The Traveler

To give my thoughts on your original question, I believe spirits have tremendous influence on us. Moroni explained in Moroni 7 that the devil and his angels "inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually." On the other hand "that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually."

Mormon explains in Alma 3 that people "reap eternal happiness or eternal misery, according to the spirit which they listed to obey, whether it be a good spirit or a bad one."

John counseled to "try the spirits, whether they are of God." We cannot get around the reality that there is a spiritual world around us.

It might be a stretch for you to propose that everything we do is influenced by spirits, but it would be hard to deny their overall influence. And, of course, I agree that agency allows us to choose our master.

Roy

[Traveler]

Traveler:

I am not sure about your question. I would just add that it is different to cast out devils and dismiss them asap, than to seek them out, ask them questions, court them in order to divine the future, know things and, specially, lucre with such activities.

If you look at "familiar spirits" in the bible you will not find one instance where God says it is OK. On the contrary.

Do you think that the only way unclean spirits have influence in our lives is when they are saught - or will an unclean spiritual influence seek us out as in the example of Eve in the garden?

The Traveler

[Dove]

I have often had a sense of things from the spiritual side. I was once told in a priesthood blessing that I have former friends in the pre-existance who went to the adversary's side, and that they were specifically assigned to tempt me because they knew me so well. That was pretty powerful and spooky to me.

On the good side, I have often had a sense of loving people/spirits around me. I believe they are my deceased ancestry watching over me.

Isn't the spirit world here on earth, around us? There is a whole world of spirits and spirituality~for good or ill. I can't help but feel that they are a strong, if unseen, part of our lives. We do choose to whom/what we listen to, but that doesn't mean they aren't attempting to prompt us one way or another. I think they are more than we realize.

[WANDERER]

Zero belief in un-invited spirits possessing you....seems to be one of those spiritual laws...something to do with agency.

Temptation...okay. Ongoing harrassment...perhaps.. in some cases. God is faithful...no temptation that you cannot bear...no temptation that He will not help you stand up under it. Interesting wording isn't it: stand up under it.

Prayer is always an effective response. I don't think fear of the opposition is a healthy response...neither is constant doubt in fear of oppositional spiritual influences. Either you have trust and faith or you don't. Agency means that you don't get to write off your own behaviour or other people's behaviour as being under the influence of satan. That's weak. Agency means that you have the power to decide and make choices. Agency means that you have the final responsibility: you cannot blame good or evil for your choices. Agency means you know exactly which side you are backing when you make those choices and are deliberately choosing to succumb to temptation knowing full well you are going against God's plan for your life. I don't think it's all that subtle...temptation can be, but I also think you have to court it to some degree....but all subtlety is lost when it requires action on your behalf. I don't believe in the cloth human puppet idea of spiritual influences. I don't believe being LDS or non-LDS or atheist has a lot to do with whether your actions, thoughts or whatever can be ascribed to the influence of good or evil spirits....religious affiliation isn't a decider...a relationship with God is.

I think it might be an effective lie to prevent people from focussing on God and to get them dwelling on the behaviour of lesser spirits and in so doing make them appear to have greater power than they have...where focus goes energy flows. I think it would be far more productive to give the power over to God for things in your life. Paul talks about the full armour of God. Faith is your shield. And your feet should be shod with the gospel of peace. Ephesians 6. The gospel is meant to bring you peace...and you should only walk in the gospel of peace. We wrestle..yes..but with the power of God's might to help us. Now there is a scripture worth claiming in your life.

Anyway, that's what I think.

Edited July 25, 2008 by WANDERER

[Traveler]

Zero belief in un-invited spirits possessing you....seems to be one of those spiritual laws...something to do with agency.

Temptation...okay. Ongoing harrassment...perhaps.. in some cases. God is faithful...no temptation that you cannot bear...no temptation that He will not help you stand up under it. Interesting wording isn't it: stand up under it.

Prayer is always an effective response. I don't think fear of the opposition is a healthy response...neither is constant doubt in fear of oppositional spiritual influences. Either you have trust and faith or you don't. Agency means that you don't get to write off your own behaviour or other people's behaviour as being under the influence of satan. That's weak. Agency means that you have the power to decide and make choices. Agency means that you have the final responsibility: you cannot blame good or evil for your choices. Agency means you know exactly which side you are backing when you make those choices and are deliberately choosing to succumb to temptation knowing full well you are going against God's plan for your life. I don't think it's all that subtle...temptation can be, but I also think you have to court it to some degree....but all subtlety is lost when it requires action on your behalf. I don't believe in the cloth human puppet idea of spiritual influences. I don't believe being LDS or non-LDS or atheist has a lot to do with whether your actions, thoughts or whatever can be ascribed to the influence of good or evil spirits....religious affiliation isn't a decider...a relationship with God is.

I think it might be an effective lie to prevent people from focussing on God and to get them dwelling on the behaviour of lesser spirits and in so doing make them appear to have greater power than they have...where focus goes energy flows. I think it would be far more productive to give the power over to God for things in your life. Paul talks about the full armour of God. Faith is your shield. And your feet should be shod with the gospel of peace. Ephesians 6. The gospel is meant to bring you peace...and you should only walk in the gospel of peace. We wrestle..yes..but with the power of God's might to help us. Now there is a scripture worth claiming in your life.

Anyway, that's what I think.

I thought an agent was someone that represents (behaves for) someone else?

The Traveler

[WANDERER]

That by which something is accomplished or some end achieved. One that acts or has the power or authority to act. Delegated authority.

One empowered to act for or represent another...to be a representative.

A disempowered or empowered agent? I think empowered...through God.

Does a disempowered agent have authority or agency...no.

That's how I understand things...just my opinion. But considering that my avatar is a pink cupcake...well...what more is there to say. I also got saddled with a name that means hope. I'm not sure if that sends your spiritual Barbie alarm into red alert or not LOL.

[WANDERER]

Clarifies: the power to act and represent God and have authority from Him is something that I meant on a personal level involving your own life, God and how you interact with family, friends etc... that kind of agency.

I'm not LDS...but I gather that the words *the power and authority to represent God* might be interpreted as priesthood or whatever. That's another level of authority altogether.

[Traveler]

I thought I would add a thought. Many think that they are not influenced by what is around them, this in light of the fact that advertisers pay millions for a minute or two to advertise during the “Super Bowl”. And of course the intelligent unclean spirits that are billions of years old with experience would not be so cleaver.

I was once having a discussion on the internet about the influence TV has on individuals and society when a particular person took me to task arguing that TV had no influence on them – they could make up their own mind. They then said that they had been watching a show where Dick Cavot said that violence on TV was not as effective as some would think. He gave the example of, “With all the humor on TV you would think that humor would be rampant in the streets.”

I thanked the person for their contribution but I had just one question. If TV did not effect their opinion of things why was it that they had to use something they learned from TV to express their opinion? If you ask a child what they want for their birthday or Christmas it will (with almost no exception) be something they saw on TV.

The Traveler

[WANDERER]

Oh I get what you're saying now. I didn't because it's a non-issue. I don't have cable, I don't have a dvd player, I seldom watch tv (House if I have the time), I use the internet for learning and work mainly...I have boring hobbies like knitting. I have an ipod...but I'm not that into music and it was a bit of a waste of money really..I mostly like to listen to Bach, Enya and some girl who sings the blues in French...ummmm...Madeleine Peyroux..probably last recharged it about 5 months ago *doh*..I bought it so that I wouldn't be bored walking...and haven't done much of either*. My reading for entertainment could be described as young adult category. I don't drink. My vices are coffee (cheap instant) and tea (twinnings)...and smoking (I'm trying to quit...it's a habit from being young and silly..). My social activities are pretty much in the same G category. When I last housesat for my sister who has a mega entertainment unit ..it's like going to the movies for real...I waded through her collection of Battlestar Galactica : she has the complete set LOL. Her hubby has the complete set of Astroboy *blah..no idea what the obsession with that is...but to each their own*. My sister thinks I'm really odd for not owning a dvd player....she hasn't asked when the last time I went to see a movie was so I haven't had to weird her out even more LOL. I sometimes play puzzle games on the computer: mah jong and the like.

I did have cable when I was out in a remote area..not much to do ...: lifestyle, history and some of the very nice family friendly Hallmark movies *I'm a sucker for movies with nice messages*. I also ended up playing lawn bowls *that's living in the country for you*. If I want news I'll get it from the internet and select what is worth reading: technology, business/economy and health.

It's not because there are any rules to it...I just don't have any interest. Perhaps it's the other way around. Perhaps the influence towards seeking certain things comes from the person themselves. Perhaps convos about what people should and shouldn't watch, do or listen to are because people are very focussed on restricting themselves to certain things...since it's not an effort for me...I don't end up having those conversations a whole lot unless other people instigate them. Zero interest really..which is why I don't get the idea that things influence you...don't people influence themselves? Anyway, that's where they're at...a conversation isn't really going to change their headspace or habits unless they want to change them and changing one habit doesn't change who they are and why they are lead to have certain hobbies or interests. They'll just replace it with something else that is equivalent.

[Traveler]

Oh I get what you're saying now. I didn't because it's a non-issue. I don't have cable, I don't have a dvd player, I seldom watch tv (House if I have the time), I use the internet for learning and work mainly...I have boring hobbies like knitting. I have an ipod...but I'm not that into music and it was a bit of a waste of money really..I mostly like to listen to Bach, Enya and some girl who sings the blues in French...ummmm...Madeleine Peyroux..probably last recharged it about 5 months ago *doh*..I bought it so that I wouldn't be bored walking...and haven't done much of either*. My reading for entertainment could be described as young adult category. I don't drink. My vices are coffee (cheap instant) and tea (twinnings)...and smoking (I'm trying to quit...it's a habit from being young and silly..). My social activities are pretty much in the same G category. When I last housesat for my sister who has a mega entertainment unit ..it's like going to the movies for real...I waded through her collection of Battlestar Galactica : she has the complete set LOL. Her hubby has the complete set of Astroboy *blah..no idea what the obsession with that is...but to each their own*. My sister thinks I'm really odd for not owning a dvd player....she hasn't asked when the last time I went to see a movie was so I haven't had to weird her out even more LOL. I sometimes play puzzle games on the computer: mah jong and the like.

I did have cable when I was out in a remote area..not much to do ...: lifestyle, history and some of the very nice family friendly Hallmark movies *I'm a sucker for movies with nice messages*. I also ended up playing lawn bowls *that's living in the country for you*. If I want news I'll get it from the internet and select what is worth reading: technology, business/economy and health.

It's not because there are any rules to it...I just don't have any interest. Perhaps it's the other way around. Perhaps the influence towards seeking certain things comes from the person themselves. Perhaps convos about what people should and shouldn't watch, do or listen to are because people are very focussed on restricting themselves to certain things...since it's not an effort for me...I don't end up having those conversations a whole lot unless other people instigate them. Zero interest really..which is why I don't get the idea that things influence you...don't people influence themselves? Anyway, that's where they're at...a conversation isn't really going to change their headspace or habits unless they want to change them and changing one habit doesn't change who they are and why they are lead to have certain hobbies or interests. They'll just replace it with something else that is equivalent.

Interesting post - I thank you.

Now I have a question. Many people feel that they are being influenced by something external as they go about things. For example JJ Rawlings (not sure on spelling) commented that her Harry Potter was something that "came to her".

I had a Psych class many years ago in college where we ran experiments to see how people could be influenced. I was quite shocked at the ease of it. So may I ask you? Do you think the society you live in influences you? - do you think your friends and family influence you? And the question my Buddhist (priest) friend once asked me – are you aware of how you are influenced – what thoughts are really yours and what thought come from somewhere else?

The Traveler