Speaking in tongues

[prisonchaplain]

My understanding from the Bofm and the words of Paul that their are many gifts of God and not all of us will be blessed with the same gifts....but that we will be blessed as a group by the collective gifts of all. So I may say, "why not me", and God will have to determine the answer to that question.

I find it also interesting that the gift of tongues is so prized among evangelicals and others....

Just to be precise, the focus on tongues is unique amongst Pentecostals (like myself). We distinguish "speaking in tongues" from "the gift of tongues." Looking at the five incidences in which believers experience "baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the Book of Acts, we see a pattern. Tongues is specifically mentioned in three of those incidences. In a fourth it is implied. That one incidence does not mention tongues is no indication that they did not take place. Furthermore, in one case, tongues are specifically cited as proof that Gentiles received the baptism "just as we Jews did." So, we believe that speaking in tongues is the first physical sign that one has received Spirit baptism. That's why there's such a focus on it.

In contrast, the gift of tongues is for the church. There may be only one or two, or perhaps up to a half dozen or so, that regularly exercise this gift, even in a large church. Why? Paul commanded that only two or three messages be given in a service, and that they require interpretation. Paul even seems to suggest that the gift of tongues is one of the lesser gifts, and that prophecy is superior (it doesn't need interpretation).

yet the idea of a farm boy seeing God is somehow blasphemous and must either be a lie or something created by Satan.

IMHO, it's WHAT Joseph Smith said God's messengers told him that scandalizes us more than THAT he claimed the visitations.

It seems interesting to me that these groups pick and choose which miracles to validate. I am not sure by what method those are chosen. But it still seems a point of biblical interest to me.

Well, we're commanded to discern the Spirit. It's not unheard of for a church leader, after a message in tongues or a prophecy is given, to declare, "I'm sorry people, but I sense that this word was not from the Lord." Also, remember that we believe modern prophecy must be submitted to God's already revealed word--the Bible.

[prisonchaplain]

Where/what is the scriptural basis for this belief?

For your reading pleasure: Holy Spirit Baptism: Frequently Asked Questions about Tongues

[Misshalfway]

For your reading pleasure: Holy Spirit Baptism: Frequently Asked Questions about Tongues

Why thank you! :)

[Listener]

This is a very interesting thread.

I have heard a first hand story of a non-LDS missionary who was spontaneously engifted with the capacity to share the gospel with someone in their own language.

I also have heard a first hand story of a student of Hebrew who went to a service where tongues were spoken and interpreted. He stood up and recited the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew. It was interpreted in a manner that was completely unrelated to its meaning.

So...God does give gifts, and they are meant for the edification of the body and the continuing spread of the good news of the Atonement. Sometimes, what appear as gifts are counterfeit...but then, this is also true of love, repentence, service, etc. My responsibility in the end is to seek wisdom to know my own gifts, and seek God's help to make certain that they are properly used. I am thankful that I have not been gifted with the responsibility for evaluating the gifts of others.

[Misshalfway]

Listener,

I am not trying to "judge it"....I am trying to understand the practice.....and the biblical foundations for such practice. I have no doubt that God blesses this entire earth with gifts.

PC,

Thank you for that link. It was highly informative.....and I know have a better understanding and frankly more respect.

The only sticking point....from a biblical perspective.....is something I stated earlier. If Paul says that God has various gifts to give and that we will not all be given the same gifts, then why doesn't that conflict with the "pattern in the book of Acts" you demonstrated in an earlier post??? Or why doesn't it allow for a more broad understanding? I guess I am still unclear as to why that is attached to the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not that it couldn't be. If a person was indeed sincere and received the Holy Spirit and was sanctified and converted and born again, wouldn't they be just as clean whether they spoke in tongues or bore a beautiful spirit filled testimony? And do you think the pressure to speak in tongues in these situations leads people to manufacture the experience so they don't look bad in front of the church?

[WANDERER]

I will pray in tongues sometimes...for personal prayer. Not very frequently. I understand what I am saying either...after the fact, a sentence behind, like translation... or as I am saying things. I do it for similar reasons as PC stated.

I agree with what PC has said and what Paul says on it in the scriptures and the linked page.

Some people have the idea that a person is not baptised if they don't have the gift of tongues and I'm a little wary of making those sorts of judgements because trespassing on areas like that is not something I want to do...if that makes sense. I have come across situations where some people receive different gifts, but don't speak in tongues.

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry...PC.....I have so many questions. I hope you will forgive me.

If you pray in tongues.....is this when you are alone or in your church meetings? And do you understand what you are saying? And do you control what is said and if so, how do you control what is said if you don't know what you are saying?

First, just as you appreciate non-LDS who ask you questions rather than argue, I likewise am honored to answer questions. When I pray in tongues I am generally alone. While I do not know the exact words I am praying, I usually can sense whether I am praising God or interceding for needs. Quite often I will transition from English to tongues, and usually feel that the theme of my prayers is similar to what I had been saying in English. I cannot control WHAT is said, but I can control speaking or not speaking. We believe that when we pray in the Spirit our spirit is communing directly with God, and so the prayers, in a sense, are more efficient--they go to the core of our being.

Having said that, it's not uncommon, during church services, for me to quietly speak a phrase or two in tongues. This is not wrong, so long as I'm not drawing attention to myself. However, if I pray loudly, others will assume I'm exercising the gift of tongues and become quiet--waiting for me to finish, and an interpretation to follow.

I guess my understanding of the gift is that a person would be used as a vessel or tool for God to show his power thru. I find it interesting that you feel the ability to spontaneously command this gift.

The Apostle Paul commanded us to "Pray in the Spirit and with understanding." The implication is that we can neglect this if we choose to. And, quite often, God's glory is for our own understanding, not for others.

And I am still trying to see the purpose in such communications with God. Why would God need you to speak in an unknown tongue to him when he understands all? Especially if you aren't made aware of any interpretation.

There is a sense of God's presence during such prayer. Further, what you say is true of prayer in general. God already knows. Yet He commands us to pray. Our Heavenly Father wants to commune with us, both cognatively (English) and spiritually (in the Spirit).

I suppose I am trying to see what biblical evidence there is that the prophets used the gift this way other than the day of pentecost because it was clear that there was a great need for such a gift and it was also clear that their was interpretation as part of the miracle. I am also trying to understand why it is attached to conversion. Not that it couldn't or wouldn't happen, just the idea that it should.

Again, the five incidences of Spirit-baptism in Acts include a direct reference to tongues three times, and imply it a fourth. We see a pattern. And, it is NOT attached to conversion. We believe Spirit baptism occurs AFTER conversion. Those five incidences in Acts all involved believers seeking the baptism.

BTW, it might help if you think of tongues as the "title" of Spirit-baptism, and the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23) as the actual car. Most people are far more interested in seeing the car in action, than in looking at your proof that you own it. Likewise, while tongues may be a mystical evidence of Spirit baptism, wondrous for me to experience, I know full well that what others want to see in me is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONG-SUFFERING . . .

Ok and just one more thing. If God does want to "touch our emotions" as you say, why do LDS people get so much heat for asking investigators how they "feel" inside to determine if they are indeed feeling the spirit?

Because many Christians are not Pentecostal/Charismatic, and have been told repeatedly NOT to trust their emotions, "for the heart is deceitful above all else." I'd partially agree. What I sense the Spirit telling me must line up with Scripture. If it does not, Scripture trumps what I thought was the Spirit.

[Misshalfway]

Thank you for answering PC. Your answers seem to be begetting new questions, but I will give you a break for today. :)

[prisonchaplain]

Listener,

The only sticking point....from a biblical perspective.....is something I stated earlier. If Paul says that God has various gifts to give and that we will not all be given the same gifts, then why doesn't that conflict with the "pattern in the book of Acts" you demonstrated in an earlier post??? Or why doesn't it allow for a more broad understanding? I guess I am still unclear as to why that is attached to the baptism of the Holy Ghost, not that it couldn't be. If a person was indeed sincere and received the Holy Spirit and was sanctified and converted and born again, wouldn't they be just as clean whether they spoke in tongues or bore a beautiful spirit filled testimony? And do you think the pressure to speak in tongues in these situations leads people to manufacture the experience so they don't look bad in front of the church?

I asked myself this repeatedly throughout much of my seminary experience. If there was a sign, tongues seemed the most obvious. My question was: Why does there have to be a sign at all? The answer I came to is that anyone can claim to be a Christian, and anyone can claim to have the anointing of God, but how to discern? Well, yes, ask the Spirit. But, still...something that everyone can see and hear?

In the Acts 10 incident this issue came to a head. What? Gentiles receiving God's Spirit. Yes, Jesus spoke with a Samaritan. Yes, he ate dinner with a tax collector. Yes, He came to seek and save the lost. BUT, salvation comes through the Jews! To give the precious Spirit of God to such unclean, unchosen folks--it's too much. We can't believe it!

But wait...the speak in tongues like we do. And it's real. We can't deny them.

That's how we see it. Many disagree. Further, I cannot deny that some feel pressure to manufacture tongues. Some feel pressured to tithe though, even though we're commanded to give joyfully.

Finally, Spirit-baptism makes me better than I was, not better than you are. Many who have experienced the presence of the Spirit, and have been converted, baptized, served a mission, participated in multiple church callings, etc., might be very mature in the faith. We just believe they would have even more power if they experienced Spirit-baptism. So, there should be no judgment.

[WANDERER]

I don't know anything about training or coaching of people to speak in tongues...just prayer to receive the gift. I underwent a bit of spiritual angst about things being a teen and all...a friend suggested attempting it and seeing what followed...a kind of fake it until you make it. This was not good to hear and probably caused more harm than good because I wondered how many people did that. Not for me...I learnt to deal with not having it...and being the only one in my family and Youth Group and all that stuff...and was as fine with it as one could be. But...it did happen....eventually...sometimes pentecostal charismatic churches refer to it as being 'drunk with the spirit'...drunk is incorrect...but the most joyful experience. I'm not all that open to discussion on it and generally don't.

Edited August 7, 2008 by WANDERER

[bytor2112]

Do you know the "tongue" in which you are speaking? Is it a tongue not spoken in the world today, a lost language? Is it the language of God? Is it the Adamic language? Does everyone who speaks in tongues, speak the same tongue? And what of other manifestations of the "spirit" that occur in Pentecostal or Charismatic churches like people seeming to be controlled by the spirit who stand entranced by the Pastor who then touches them on the forehead and they fall backwards into someone's arms who was waiting there to catch them. After, they continue to tremble and quake as if carried away in the spirit. Is this real or contrived? If real, do you believe this is God....baptism of the Holy Spirit? Edited August 8, 2008 by bytor2112

[prisonchaplain]

Do you know the "tongue" in which you are speaking? Is it a tongue not spoken in the world today, a lost language? Is it the language of God? Is it the Adamic language? Does everyone who speaks in tongues, speak the same tongue?

In most cases, we guess that the tongues are "the tongues of angels," not a human languages. However, there have been reports of someone speaking out, another interpreting, and somebody in the audience who knew the language and confirmed the interpretation.

And what of other manifestations of the "spirit" that occur in Pentecostal or Charismatic churches like people seeming to be controlled by the spirit who stand entranced by the Pastor who then touches them on the forehead and they fall backwards into someone's arms who was waiting there to catch them. After, they continue to tremble and quake as if carried away in the spirit. Is this real or contrived? If real, do you believe this is God....baptism of the Holy Spirit?

"Being slain in the Spirit," or simply being moved by the Spirit...these experiences are individual. One may laugh, another cry, still another quietly revel in a sense of peace. People respond to the physical sense of God's presence in personal ways. When a leader lays hands and someone falls down, it's the person's response to a feeling that God is moving in them. This is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. It's a fresh experience, but not anything like what's described in Acts.

If you want to evaluate it, ask: is God glorified? Usually, the answer is yes.

[bytor2112]

PC....thanks for your candid answers! I want to reiterate that I mean no disrepect to you or anyone of your faith.I just find this fascinating. Can anyone peak in tongues? Can a Latter Day Saint? Or a member of any other Christian denomination? If so, how does one receive it, through prayer? Or is it just manifested to member of your faith as an example to others?

[prisonchaplain]

Can anyone peak in tongues? Can a Latter Day Saint? Or a member of any other Christian denomination?

Any Christian can receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues. In fact, we believe that God desires that all believers do.

If so, how does one receive it, through prayer? Or is it just manifested to member of your faith as an example to others?

Nevertheless, the pattern calls for seeking, and many do not want it, for various reasons. The disciples "tarried" in the upper room for many days. Others simply heard the teaching, prayed, and received. Some have even received the baptism as they come up from the waters of baptism. I've heard stories of folk who spent hours tarrying at a big meeting, only to receive in the still of the night, in the own home. So, the "how to," is indeed prayer, seeking, and waiting on God.

Here's a true story that explains it well: A minister from an uptown Presbyterian church felt a spiritual dryness. He'd heard about a pentecostal revival happening across the tracks (wrong side of town). So, he goes, and is amazed at what he sees. People are crying, wailing, laughing, some fall down, some quiver, and many are praying in tongues. He knows he needs this, so he prays, "Lord, I need you. I need your presence and your power and your love. Just don't make me fall down or do something undignified."

Seemed like a reasonable prayer. Yet, night after night, for three weeks he went, but nothing happened. Finally, he pleads, "I don't care Lord. Just give me what you got...do what you want with me!" Immediately he falls under the power, cries, shakes, and speaks in tongues. Oh what a glorious presence! How wonderful he felt, so calm, so peaceful, and yet so empowered.

The next Sunday he shares his experience with his uptown congregation. Through tears and heartfelt joy he encourages the people to join in. A meeting is held shortly after the sermon, and the elders agree that the minister has lost the confidence of the congregation, and must be dismissed. A couple of dozen members follow the pastor, and he starts a storefront pentecostal church--and never looks back.

BTW...this story comes from a testimony published approximately 1906.

Edited August 8, 2008 by prisonchaplain

[BenRaines]

My favorite all time "speaker in tongues" is the Reverend Robert Tilton of the Robert Tilton Ministries out of Texas. That white haired silver tongued devil put on a great show. I used to watch him late nights when I couldn't sleep. My wife saw the show once and said "I feel a very bad spirit with this one."

Ben Raines

[WANDERER]

MMmmm, well I went to take a step and fell. So I sat for about a half hour (on a seat...they helped me to one as I was moving in that direction) and it was okay. Except I couldn't stop laughing and then went on for about 8 hours. Ummm, I was aware that it wasn't very dignified and reverent...so I wasn't sure how to deal with that...No I didn't get struck by a bolt of lightning for being shy....but really...there wasn't anything I could do about it and I was trying to be low key...and I didn't know that it could happen...I hadn't seen it. People generally didn't do that in my church. I was a very reserved and quiet and shy teen and asking to be prayed for was enough to make me want to bolt. My family thought I was a bit odd. But anyway, seems like it's common enough in experience. So some pentecostal churches are really out there..and some are a little more reserved (in comparison to those churches but not realllllllly all that reserved...the most reserved denominational church I've attended is one that had no seats..no getting comfortable in church for them LOL) . Some charismatic churches (they hold very similar styled meetings to pentecostal churches) don't believe in speaking in tongues and are very anti about it...they think it's demonic. Some pentecostal churches will have a speaking in tongues prayer time and others will be very offended if you speak in tongues while praying within the service because they believe it's not supposed to be publicly done in the service without interpretation.

As a youth I used to do a bit of church hopping within the pentecostal/charismatic styled churches in small groups...I believe the older girls were motivated for personal reasons and various youth groups tended to meet up at Christian rock concerts and other events anyway. We generally ran into them when witnessing in the streets or helping out in the community and youth social events. I tended to bolt when I saw the youth from the anti-speaking-in-tongues church...because as overly keen youth can be ...they tended to corner you with a group of four and a well-highlighted and marked bible on the whole issue and I burst into tears once over it. Though it was okay to attend their church with a group of people and I had friends in that church.

As far as I know various Christian denominations hold pentecostal meetings of their own...I was invited to a pentecostal catholic meeting once....fairly well attended and well-organised and reasonably well-accepted within the Catholic sphere from what I gathered. Some members of pentecostal churches are inter-denominational: people retain membership of their own church and give importance to that first and attend pentecostal meetings as well. I don't think pentecostal membership or attendance is necessary for speaking in tongues...at all.I believe the mishies speaking in tongues are doing just that...so LDS do from what I understand.

Edited August 8, 2008 by WANDERER

[Listener]

Listener,

I am not trying to "judge it"....I am trying to understand the practice.....and the biblical foundations for such practice. I have no doubt that God blesses this entire earth with gifts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miss Halfway,

My humble apologies for not being more specific. I wasn't directing my comments at your delightful questions, and I appreciate your openness and curiosity.

My comments were directed mainly at me. I have not been gifted with tongues, and at times I am quite wistful about that...I think it would be a real comfort. On the other hand, my non-Pentecostal background still haunts me with suspicion about the more unusual gifts. I am left needing to reassure myself that if God has decided not to grant me this gift, then I should not stress too much.

So, sorry if my ramblings to myself were misunderstood.

This really is a wonderful thread.

The gift of tongues was a strong part of early LDS history. What happened that it seems to be missing now?

[WANDERER]

Oh...reading up on history and understanding perhaps a little bit more...

Edited August 9, 2008 by WANDERER

[prisonchaplain]

My favorite all time "speaker in tongues" is the Reverend Robert Tilton of the Robert Tilton Ministries out of Texas. That white haired silver tongued devil put on a great show. I used to watch him late nights when I couldn't sleep. My wife saw the show once and said "I feel a very bad spirit with this one."

Ben Raines

In order for a counterfeit to be convincing, there must needs be an original.

[Maureen]

...I don't know much about the early church and the practices in RS. I suppose I would like to know a little more about that.

Here are some brief lines from one of Zina Huntington Jacobs diaries:

February...1845.

3. Wm and wife ware here in the evening. He spoke and sung in tongs [tongues]. It was excelent.

8. Mild weather, streets dry. Father called in in the evening, spoke in tong[ue]s. Had a first rate viset, ta[l]king upon the things of the kingdom.

Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young's Nauvoo Diary - part 2

I think the book Four Zinas: A Story of Mothers and Daughters on the Mormon Frontier might talk about "gift of tongues".

M.

[Maya]

I heard many missionaries speak in Finnish... You ever tried?? I tell you any missionary that can speak Finnis after a short while in MTC/finland IS speaking on tonues!

Once there was a missionary that hold a speach... and I thought he was from Finland.... he was from USA and NO family from Finland either!

Those who have been missionaries can tell that they loose the language as soon as they are dismissed (or what ever).

We have got a new missionary here... he does not understand all yet, but he sure speaks well!!

Pentakostals speeking in tongues... I always felt very uncomfortable.

[Misshalfway]

One issue I have with the practice of speaking in Tongues with the Pentacostal/Charismatic groups is what appears to me as hyper focus on this one gift. Not that there isn't authentic experience at times and not to dismiss the spiritual experience of those of you who find enlightenment in such practice. I am just not sure that I understand yet, from a biblical perspective the necessity of such a gift for everyone. I understand that Acts is a wonderful record of said gift, but find it an inadequate dictate from God that everyone should demonstrate this gift at the time of spiritual rebirth.

I also feel uncomfortable with the variety of differences in the different denominations on this doctrine alone. And I also get uncomfortable when I hear of the theatrics that sometimes follows such expressions. I don't find much biblical similarity in those practices and find myself questioning the spiritual authenticity.....and wonder if such practice is in harmony with the will of God and his Son.

I hope my honesty isn't disrespectful. If it is, I hope you will pardon any misstep on my part.

[RadioactiveWolfboy]

Awhile after I was baptized and confirmed a member of the Church, My wife was down stairs doing laundry. I had been asleep in bed for about an hour. She heard someone talking upstairs. As she headed up stairs she realized that it was me talking in my sleep, but she couldn't understand me. She said she'd never heard the language before. She told me the next morning. I speak some french, but she said it wasn't french. I have always wondered what it was and why.

Rich