Why do we have the U.S.

[delio32]

I think I understand what the LDS view of the U.S. (promised land). I am interested in other views or what other Christian religions think?

I am not a historian, but a lowly IT systems engineer and I don't really study history other then what I have learned in school and church. My understanding is people left Europe to start a new life and world. When they got here they wanted freedom from European Monarchies. What I have been taught or what I think I have been taught is the underlying reasons were to have freedom to worship Christ as they wanted?

Now, back to my original question. Do other Christian religions believe that this land was created for this purpose. Do they believe the founding fathers were inspired of God?

[pam]

Good question delio and I am interested in seeing what the responses are. I only have knowledge of what we as LDS believe.

Edited August 25, 2008 by pam

[Palerider]

waiting for Prison Chap to answer.....:)

[delio32]

I think this video Viddler.com - LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley Witnesses the Divinely Inspired US Constitution - Uploaded by AwakeAndAriseOr shows how we as Latter Day Saints feel about the United States and should strike a little fear in us.

[delio32]

One more video and it is a long one but very strong. The Proper Role of Government by Ezra Taft Benson

[DigitalShadow]

Yes... this land was created specifically for Europeans to colonize. Those other people that were already here were just an accident. Feel free to kill them to the brink of extinction and then eventually give the survivors small peices of land to build casinos on.

Not that we can go back and change things or that we can do much about it now, but as a divinely guided 'plan' it sounds pretty horrific to me.

[Elphaba]

Now, back to my original question. Do other Christian religions believe that this land was created for this purpose. Do they believe the founding fathers were inspired of God?

I don't know what other Christian religions say, but the founding fathers would tell you they were not inspired by the Christian God, or anythong other god for that matter.

They were men of the Enlightenment, not Christianity. Most of them were deists, though some were stronger deists than others. But deism taught that God, the Creator, had created the earth for all living creatures, including mankind. But that was the end of the Creator's involvement. Mankind was, as the Enlightenment taught, his own creator of his destiny, not God.

An example of how the FF were not Christians is Jefferson's Bible. He believed Christ was a good example of charity, loving your neighbor, and other behaviors taught by Christ.

However, Jefferson did not believe in anything supernatural, including Christ's miracles or being raised from the dead. Therefore, he took the Bible, removed all of the supernatural, miraculous parts in it, and that became the Bible that he believed in.

Another practice the early FF encouraged was for the population to attend Church. They believed if the population learned to treat their fellow countrymen with respect, honesty, love, etc., as the pastors usually advised, it would keep them from causing trouble, in what was a very new, and experimental country. But the FF were not Christians themselves.

Perhaps there are those who think the FF's intent does not matter. I disagree, as if they had been inspired to create a Christian government, they would have. They had the power, and the opportunity to do so, but they did not. I think this is a very important, and often ignored, piece of history that we should, as a nation, acknowledge.

Regarding freedom of religion, it is true this was integrated into the First Amendment in order to prevent a federal, (State) church assigned.

But the FF also recognized the individual's right to practice, or not practice religion as he/she would. Jefferson understood this well, and is a perfect example of this.

Obviously this is a very simplistic portrayal of the FF and their beliefs, that were incorporated into our founding documents. It really is much more complicated that this. But this does give a skeletal view of what they believed, and how they implemented what they believed.

Finally, I do not think you can remove the FF's intent in order to assert they were inspired of God to create this country. All efforts to include God in the Constitution were voted down, and this was done for a reason.

Elphaba

[Snow]

Yes... this land was created specifically for Europeans to colonize. Those other people that were already here were just an accident. Feel free to kill them to the brink of extinction and then eventually give the survivors small peices of land to build casinos on.

Not that we can go back and change things or that we can do much about it now, but as a divinely guided 'plan' it sounds pretty horrific to me.

Nothing like a little self-righteousness to start off the day eh?

... as if all that lived here before got their land fair and square with no harm to anyone.

[DigitalShadow]

Nothing like a little self-righteousness to start off the day eh?

... as if all that lived here before got their land fair and square with no harm to anyone.

I was only pointing our that as a plan it sounds pretty terrible. As something that just happened as a result of human nature it sounds more plausible.

Edited August 26, 2008 by DigitalShadow

[Fiannan]

I was only pointing our that as a plan it sounds pretty terrible. As something that just happened as a result of human nature it sounds more plausible.

The vast majority of Indians who died after the arrival of Columbus died not of violence but of measles, smallpox, cholera, etc.

[DigitalShadow]

The vast majority of Indians who died after the arrival of Columbus died not of violence but of measles, smallpox, cholera, etc.

And dying in agony from disease is a better plan than being killed through violence? I don't know if your statement is true or not, but it is irrelevant to my point.

[a-train]

The LDS position is not that the Founding Fathers were prophets, but that they were indeed inspired. Just the same, so was Thomas Edison, Alexander G. Bell, and all that ever introduced any insight to the human family. It mattered not what they believed concerning the scriptures, or miracles, or whatever. Their contribution to the collective understanding of mankind came freely from the God who gives liberally and upbraideth not.

Much of the Christian Right believes that the principles upon which our nation was established are Biblical Christian principles.

-a-train

[Over43]

So England could have a little brother to stick up for them.

J.

[Fiannan]

And dying in agony from disease is a better plan than being killed through violence? I don't know if your statement is true or not, but it is irrelevant to my point.

Not really. I sat through a conference once where a high school teacher had brought his choir to make a presentation. They sang a song and had a silent drama skit, about how the Pilgrims were welcomed to the Americas and then they proceded to murder all the Indians who had helped them.

The truth is, when newcomers from Europe and Africa came over they accidentely brought diseases the Indians had no immunity to. Immunity requires constant exposure -- that's why if smallpox ever came back tens of millions of Americans would perish as it hasn't been around for a few decades. Even if you have that little scar on your left arm you now have zero resistance offered by that shot.

Check up on this. Yeah, I know there are two reasons you rarely hear about the epidemiological reasons for the Indian's demise --fist, it doesn't fit with the politically correct image of Europeans commiting intentional genocide and second most social scientists are ignorant when it comes to biology.

[DigitalShadow]

Not really. I sat through a conference once where a high school teacher had brought his choir to make a presentation. They sang a song and had a silent drama skit, about how the Pilgrims were welcomed to the Americas and then they proceded to murder all the Indians who had helped them.

The truth is, when newcomers from Europe and Africa came over they accidentely brought diseases the Indians had no immunity to. Immunity requires constant exposure -- that's why if smallpox ever came back tens of millions of Americans would perish as it hasn't been around for a few decades. Even if you have that little scar on your left arm you now have zero resistance offered by that shot.

Check up on this. Yeah, I know there are two reasons you rarely hear about the epidemiological reasons for the Indian's demise --fist, it doesn't fit with the politically correct image of Europeans commiting intentional genocide and second most social scientists are ignorant when it comes to biology.

Whether they died from disease, war, or a combination of both, it is still irrelevant to my point which is that it sounds like a pretty horrific divine 'plan' to wipe out nearly an entire race of people so that European colonists can eventually create the US.

I don't know what all went down when the colonists arrived and the US was forming because I wasn't there, and neither were you. I have no doubts that many died from disease, but I also don't think there was much intention of peacefully coexisting with them. Either way, it's done and over with now.

[Brenton]

I think I understand what the LDS view of the U.S. (promised land). I am interested in other views or what other Christian religions think?

I am not a historian, but a lowly IT systems engineer and I don't really study history other then what I have learned in school and church. My understanding is people left Europe to start a new life and world. When they got here they wanted freedom from European Monarchies. What I have been taught or what I think I have been taught is the underlying reasons were to have freedom to worship Christ as they wanted?

Now, back to my original question. Do other Christian religions believe that this land was created for this purpose. Do they believe the founding fathers were inspired of God?

As far as I've been educated, it was for total freedom of religion.

That never really happened, and still hasn't fully, but it's getting there. :)

Its true that the founding fathers did want to escape the financial elite monarchies and bankers.

Thats why America was so against a reserve bank, but eventually the government was conned into getting one, and wah-la, financial problems.

I thought LDS view was it was promised land of the Nephites, but since they dwindled, Gods grace was not so much their because of their iniquities?

[Elphaba]

As far as I've been educated, it was for total freedom of religion.

That never really happened, and still hasn't fully, but it's getting there.

It was never about religion.

In the 1600s it WAS about religion. And interestingly, different religions that were rigid and puritanical, who did not accept any doctrines but their own.

Its true that the founding fathers did want to escape the financial elite monarchies and bankers.

The FF WERE the financial elite and bankers (a little later after the Constitution was written). But you are correct they did NOT want a monarchy in any shape or form.

In fact, when Washington insisted on leaving office, one of his reasons was that he knew he was so popular with the people he coulod stay in office indefinitely, like monarchs do. He was going to have none of that, and stepped down after 8 years.

Thats why America was so against a reserve bank, but eventually the government was conned into getting one, and wah-la, financial problems.

As far as I know, this is true.

I thought LDS view was it was promised land of the Nephites, but since they dwindled, Gods grace was not so much their because of their iniquities?When I was LDS I never heard this. I did hear, often, that America was blessed by God, and that Mormon Elders were going to save the country when it was upon ruin.

I don't know why I remember the "Elders" part. Is that right?

Elphaba