Is it possible not to judge thy neighbor or thyself

[DapperDan]

The question to not judge, I feel should be one of learning how to judge righteously on every decision or action to be taken. I consider this a requirement in becoming like the Savior.

I agree with Dr T’s response, as mortals we may through life, engrain and formulated cultured biased opinions, which can be associated with our upbringing from our parents, siblings, close friends, or even mentors. Whether they are good or bad character traits, we most be on a constant vigilance in self-correction and masters those traits that are not in harmony with the Savior. Even I have such character flaws that need correcting. LOL

Hemi,

I believe this is an example of what I'm trying to say: the sentiment you represent in your first thought is all about judging one's own-self. (i.e. decisions and actions to be taken) There is no judging of others. The judgment of others is running rampant in our day and dare I say it is extremely prominent in our LDS culture. It causes us all to "keep spiritual tabs" on each other. Causes us to monitor and regulate our interaction with them. Causes us to separate ourselves unecessarily from those that would otherwise provide great richness in our lives. However, the feeling that we "need" to judge as part of life is a great burden and wedge.

[DapperDan]

Isn't it interesting that even the Savior did not condemn the woman caught in adultry. He simply invited her to change her course.

I actually think this is an interesting point. Because it is a place where the Lord actually did exercise judgement (His not ours). That is why he invited her to change course. I can't see a situation where I would need to exercise this same type of judgement with someone else. More, my course is to bear one another's burdens, etc.

[Misshalfway]

I actually think this is an interesting point. Because it is a place where the Lord actually did exercise judgement (His not ours). That is why he invited her to change course. I can't see a situation where I would need to exercise this same type of judgement with someone else. More, my course is to bear one another's burdens, etc.

I see that he made an evaluation of her action.....perhaps implied. I actually see that his judgment and centure was directed at those who brought her to him. And I don't see that he judged her worth as a person or as a friend or as a fellow citizen. He didn't interigate her or ask her "why" or "what" or "don't you know the law" or humiliate or punish her in anyway.

I see the Lord's actions here demonstrating my point to the letter.

I mean, do we leave people better than we found them or look down on them for our ever so high and ever so perilous perch!

[Dove]

As I read through these threads, the serenity prayer from AA keeps coming to my mind~

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

I don't like judging others, it is so tiresome. I like MH's idea from her book, to simply be a witness or observe. I do think it is important to decide what situations/people are in my best interest to be around. I think we all do that.

Personally, I believe the reason why it is so easy to judge wrongfully is because we cannot have all the facts as to a person's true heart/intent. While I may act according to their actions towards me, I can't know what's prompting them to act as they are, and I don't know that that's my business.

It's hard, as I've felt judged plenty of times by others. So, do I in turn judge them, or simply let it be as it is? I think I prefer the latter, and to always study to remove the beam from my eye, rather than the mote in theirs. I always feel much better approaching it in this way.

Miss HW has a great point about removing the guilt and condemnation though. I learned a long time ago to allow God to judge/punish me, and not myself. When I realized that, coming to Him became so much easier.

Dove

[rastler00]

Tip toeing in....

As a secularist I get judged harshly by religious folk all of the time. Heck, I've even been kicked off of several religious boards, and have even has suggested my views don't fit in with a church/ward in the real world.

Now to be sure I have been known to judge "right back at ya", but hey..... we all do it. We all think our way, or views are the best. It's just part of being human I guess.

Tip toeing back out....

[Nappaljarri]

I actually think this is an interesting point. Because it is a place where the Lord actually did exercise judgement (His not ours). That is why he invited her to change course. I can't see a situation where I would need to exercise this same type of judgement with someone else. More, my course is to bear one another's burdens, etc.

Oh but there is DapperDan. Are you a parent? A husband? A Patriach of your family? There are situations in ones life where their stewardship requires judgement. Not the harsh personal judgement that may have been described in this thread (that can be human nature which must be wrent from our souls) but the judgement that invites one to repent and change course. You talked about bishops/stake presidents etc, yes, that is in a church setting, they sure have a tough job of interacting with other people who are not their own flesh and blood. But in a covenant family setting (God's kingdom on this earth), as parents we need to represent Heavenly Parents on this earth. We need to be their guide and example. There has been quite a few times that we have had to sit our children down and teach them that their behaviour and the motive behind it was wrong according to God's law and teach them over and over again about repentance and walking back to the rod and take hold of it again. This process involves inviting them to "not do it again" and showing them by example and training them to judge and assess themselves against the yardstick of the gospel. Most of the time it is a teaching moment and you have the great oppotunity of teaching and training your child to judge and analyse themselves, but there are times when quick swift action needs to be taken to alter behaviour and change attitudes.

I look through the scriptures and especially the Book of Mormon and see this time and time again. And not just father's inviting family members to repent, but brothers as well. Nephi telling his brothers to repent and come unto Jesus. Alma the elder to his son Alma. And the list could go on. There is a place for judgement and that place resides in the family unit and in the church unit. But again, I understand that the judgement that I am describing (which I will continue to call judgement, as that is what it is) is different to the type that is mainly being discussed here on this thread.

[rastler00]

There has been quite a few times that we have had to sit our children down and teach them that their behaviour and the motive behind it was wrong according to God's law and teach them over and over again about repentance and walking back to the rod and take hold of it again. This process involves inviting them to "not do it again" and showing them by example and training them to judge and assess themselves against the yardstick of the gospel. Most of the time it is a teaching moment and you have the great oppotunity of teaching and training your child to judge and analyse themselves, but there are times when quick swift action needs to be taken to alter behaviour and change attitudes.

When it is children then of course that is what any parent should do, teach them. They are kids and need to be taught. But, I am an adult now. Actually an aging adult swiftly working down the other side of the hill.

Is there a difference between the two? Or is it still okay to judge because "you are right and I am wrong"? Are you okay with me suggesting the same thing in reverse? Isn't that the theme of this thread?

[bmy-]

I try to 'witness' literally all of the time. I make judgements occasionally but when I do I try to recognize it as a shortcoming.

It's best if we make no presumptions about someone elses life. I'm not fond of people presuming to know the intricate details of my life -- people who do so seem to have a terrible habit of telling me what i'm doing wrong.

Like they would know.

Then again.. I live in a world of gray. 'They' seem to prefer the black and white version.

[Nappaljarri]

There has been quite a few times that we have had to sit our children down and teach them that their behaviour and the motive behind it was wrong according to God's law and teach them over and over again about repentance and walking back to the rod and take hold of it again. This process involves inviting them to "not do it again" and showing them by example and training them to judge and assess themselves against the yardstick of the gospel. Most of the time it is a teaching moment and you have the great oppotunity of teaching and training your child to judge and analyse themselves, but there are times when quick swift action needs to be taken to alter behaviour and change attitudes.

When it is children then of course that is what any parent should do, teach them. They are kids and need to be taught. But, I am an adult now. Actually an aging adult swiftly working down the other side of the hill.

Is there a difference between the two? Or is it still okay to judge because "you are right and I am wrong"? Are you okay with me suggesting the same thing in reverse? Isn't that the theme of this thread?

LOL, Rastler..... I'm sorry you are on the other side of the hill . I don't quite understand your question though??? The context that I put my 2c in is the only context that I was describing. Is that the answer you were after??

[WANDERER]

Interesting perspective Miss Halfway. I work in a job where I'm required to be judgemental/critical and in a positive way...if I'm going to say that work looks a little untidy...usually in the form of *Do you need some help?* : ) I'd better be in there helping them trying to neaten it up and offer useful advice that they want to hear and can value and is at a level they find useful. And I had better have that trust basis before I even go in there to help in any way, shape or form..because they can't listen to me when they're still trying to decide whether interacting with me is going to be a bad thing or not. So I see it as a level of commitment...judgment is okay when you support and help and it has a caring apect to it. It also requires permission. To enable others and to help them achieve success...that's okay.

To a certain degree we do use value judgements to affirm what we have in common and as a way of connecting with others...but this can also isolate others and ourselves. It can also be beneficial to explore diversity in some cases...and tolerance at the same time. It can be helpful to clarify values and develop our understanding of what it means to value something and how we do that in practice. But it is a very difficult thing to do...with respect and without compromising values that are important to us. I think people differ on their skill levels on this and their level of emotional angst within conflict situations. There are always some *no go* areas...and I guess learning the skills for recognising your own boundaries and what you can and can't cope with are also needed and also for recognising when you have crossed the boundaries of others. The opposite of judgement is forgiveness...perhaps focussing on being forgiving is the key factor....you don't need a reason, understanding,an explanation or an excuse...though they can help...most times you won't be that lucky....but might as well let it go. There's a lot you will never know that lies behind other people's actions.

There is also the flip side of judgement...it isn't all bad...we judge that we like people and that they're okay : )

Edited September 17, 2008 by WANDERER

[Elphaba]

Let's say I meet someone nasty. How easy it is to judge the nastiness.... and react to the nastiness in a variety of colorful ways. But what if you just observe the nastiness.....see the pain behind it. Maybe wait for more information.....or ask for more information before we move forward. Isn't that a more powerful place than writing someone off or punishing them or condemning them? Like my fourth mission companion. Hated each other. Argued! Said awful things! We prayed for a change of heart. Father taught us that day to accept each other. And we did. She didn't change one iota and neither did I. But she ended up being my favorite companion. It was our judging of each other that was our problem....not anything else.

That was profound.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I have an older daughter who does not go to church. Do I need to make parental assessment of what she is doing every Sunday? Yes! Then leave it in the Lords hand.

How old is she Hemi? Is she still in your home?

Elphaba

[Spacemecha]

It seems so far that this is geared primarily to judging external sources to ones self. From my own experience (And I can't speak for others) in my life there is a greater danger in judging ones self, and a also a danger in a comparison of yourself to others. I've sold myself short on a lot of things in my life because of how I thought I couldn't or could do something when it wasn't needed, or became prideful because I thought I was better. This led myself into sin quite a lot in my life which I am still dealing with.

There is judgement that is good. I did come to a point where I realized that I was wrong in a lot of things and needed to be in the right, and I found myself to be lacking, stopped the descent into sin, and started working for that which was good in my life.

I like what Nephi said

2 Nephi 4:34

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

[Misshalfway]

Self righteousness seems to be a theme as of late here on the ole board. I wonder if being a "witness" rather than a "judge" would be an antidote. :)

Someone earlier posted about how burdensome and sometimes exhausting it is to judge others. I watch sometimes and see the lengths some will go to be 'right'. We don't live in a world of blacks and whites. We live in a world filled with spectrums of color. It is important that we have the Spirit to help us discern and lead and protect our families and our own course. But I don't think NEEDING to be right has anything to do with that pursuit whatsoever. Needing to be right is an evidence of ego and pride and the rameumptum syndrome! (no reference to the Ram we know and love.) I think so many times when I read the New Testament I feel the Lord trying so hard to get the people to stop living in their black and white extremes and move toward the middle in balance and love. Isn't that what this gospel is all about? Understanding and accepting the human condition. Loving and accepting ourselves and others in that condition. Laying down the prideful impulse to judge and change and prove and make ourselves feel superior!

There are sometimes people I am around that make me feel like they are analyzing everything about me. The way I speak....the things I do.....the clothes I wear....the mistake I made.....what dish soap I buy! It must take so much energy to judge other people like that. And then I must look within.....do I do that? Yes! And why? That is the big question to me. I read some posts on this thread and I almost get the feeling that the "righteous judgment" thing is a green light to judge everything and everyone if we can somehow manage the righteousness to do it. But then I look at the lord and how he dealt with the leper, the sinner, the foreigner, the child, the outcast...... Was there any judgment upon the flesh? Any whatsoever? Yet, it was those who brought the adulteress woman in judgment that were silently censured by the Lord.

I am not saying that this kind of judgment isn't human or isn't common or isn't so second nature to some that they don't even know they are doing it. I think it plagues us all and on any given day, I think we can hit a 10 on the self righteous scale. Just wait.....I probably will be soon....if not right now. :)

Love is power. It is the ultimate power! It can change hearts in an instant! I have heard it even makes the world go round! :) I think this concept of being a "witness" is a step in that direction and that is why I wanted to talk about it.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Misshalfway

[Hemidakota]

If Self-Righteous is the theme, here is an Ensign article looking at three parables from a prophet viewpoint:

Snippet: Joseph Smith looks at love and self-righteousness in the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Parables of Mercy

[Dove]

Love is power. It is the ultimate power! It can change hearts in an instant! I have heard it even makes the world go round! :) I think this concept of being a "witness" is a step in that direction and that is why I wanted to talk about it.

Hello, MissHW~

Thank you for bringing out that rather than judging, loving is so important. It is the greatest commandment.

I had an interesting experience with my husband, who is a member of a different religion from mine. We got into a discussion on the old grace vs. works topic. I started looking up scriptures in the New Testament to prove my point that obedience to the commandments is required, that faith without works is dead, etc. Wouldn't you know it, every scripture I found on being obedient to the commandments in the New Testament were somehow tied into loving our brother/sister. I have to laugh. Boy, was I put into my place. I learned more from that than what I was trying to teach my husband in winning the argument. Loving our brothers/sisters is the greatest commandment. It seems so soon forgotten in our quest to upstage each other in how well we're keeping them.

I feel I have understood your message in this thread. I believe what you're saying is to not judge other people in a demeaning, putting them down and making them feel less than way. My question then, is, if loving is the ultimate power, how do we go about loving other's in such a way that they will understand and feel loved by us? I mean this in all sincerity. For instance, I love my nephews dearly, but communicating this to them in a manner they understand and feel uplifted by is like speaking in a foreign language for me at times.

I have a sister who has a gift for loving others. All of us in the family (friends have to) relate to her and trust her with our hearts. Every one of us feel loved by her, and she is probably all of our's favourite sister. How can I attain to loving others in this way?

This is an open question. I would love to hear everyone's response and ideas on this.

Dove

[Misshalfway]

I don't know if I know anything more about love than the next guy, but I think I am learning in my life that loving myself is where it starts. I can only be as loving and gentle with others as I am with myself.

Sometimes in my life I have been hard on others. And as I have looked within, I have realized that I am so very hard on myself. Like when i make a mistake....Holy Toledo! I can be brutal! I can feel guilt faster than anyone alive and I can force myself into perfectionism even faster than that. And so......I have had to learn to calm things down a bit and Father in Heaven has been gracious enough to show me how I need to change.

So.....I love myself now in lots of different ways. I try not to beat myself needlessly for my flaws and mistakes and over the donut I ate at the family party. And with lots of practice, I feel my capacities are increasing.

Having said that......I don't know about making others feel that love or accept that love. Whether they accept it or are attracted to it or not doesn't diminish it in any degree....it is just the choice of the other person in the transaction. So....I go forward and I try to love. And even if no one responds or reciprocates, I at least know that love came from me because that is who I am and that is what I do.

I think the more I study these ideas and challenge my preconceived notions about "righteousness", I am hopefully uncovering for myself what it means to have the divine nature and become more like the Lord.

[HiJolly]

It seems so far that this is geared primarily to judging external sources to ones self. From my own experience (And I can't speak for others) in my life there is a greater danger in judging ones self, and a also a danger in a comparison of yourself to others.

I totally agree with the danger of comparing one's self to others. I don't think we can socially survive without some degree of this, yet it is the key to much sorrow if used to justify or judge our own selves.

OTOH, self-judgement is an absolute requirement. Otherwise, we could not repent.

HiJolly

[rameumptom]

I think judgment begins and ends in the way God determines/judges things. He does not begin by holding a bunch of grievances over our heads - like so many of us do over our loved ones and enemies.

Instead, I believe God seeks for reasons to save and exalt, first; and only to condemn after all other measures are used. The Spirit determines righteous judgment. Nothing else.

To often we strive to judge out of our passions and feelings: I was offended, and so I must be right in my wrath to condemn and hang the offender.

But Alma taught Shiblon that we must bridle our passions so that we will be filled with love. What an interesting concept. By bridling/controlling our passions, we can be filled with God's love! IOW, we must be in control of our feelings. To act and not react or be acted upon. When I'm in control of my passions, then I can choose freely to forgive and to love. But when I'm not in control, then I am at the mercy of whatever emotional wind that comes and blows me over.

To judge righteous judgment first requires that we have control over our passions. We must be able to review and consider all events through the lenses of bridled passion and the gift of the Spirit. We must be filled with love and eager to forgive. And we must first pull the beam out of our own eye, before being able to remove the mote out of another's eye.

[richlittell]

Before converting to the church I was guided by the following paraphrased principles:

---The two greatest commandments (Love the Lord thy God with all they heart and love thy neighbor as thyself)

--Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

--Judge not lest ye be judged accordingly...

--and a non-scriptural: Consider walking a mile in another person's shoes. (which I slanted to mean trying to gain empathy with others, rather than a right to judge them if I perhaps had similarly walked in their shoes).

It is quite easy to live life, in large part, without judging others.

Judgement comes in it's proper time and place yet is rarely needed. Righteous judgement comes into play when we are in a position of leadership and such leadership necessitates it. If we do not have a particular stake in an individual's life, such as parents, bishops, home teachers, or close personal friend (and on this we need to be careful), there need not be any judgement passed, most especially, the further removed we are from the individual whose actions we may question and whose life's background or current situation we may not know.

[Guest tomk]

I am trying to get what you mean here......okay, trying again........ Dang. I really don't. Could you clarify?

Clarify which part?

[Nappaljarri]

///Someone earlier posted about how burdensome and sometimes exhausting it is to judge others. I watch sometimes and see the lengths some will go to be 'right'. We don't live in a world of blacks and whites. We live in a world filled with spectrums of color. It is important that we have the Spirit to help us discern and lead and protect our families and our own course. But I don't think NEEDING to be right has anything to do with that pursuit whatsoever. Needing to be right is an evidence of ego and pride and the rameumptum syndrome! (no reference to the Ram we know and love.) I think so many times when I read the New Testament I feel the Lord trying so hard to get the people to stop living in their black and white extremes and move toward the middle in balance and love. Isn't that what this gospel is all about? Understanding and accepting the human condition. Loving and accepting ourselves and others in that condition. Laying down the prideful impulse to judge and change and prove and make ourselves feel superior! ///

Misshalfway, I think you make a very good point. I would add, that in the circumstance of parents and family members (which we have ultimate responsibility for first in this life, as I was describing before) there is a necessity for us to plead and use all of our energy and emotion in convincing our family (especially ourselves, our spouse, our children, and then the rest of the extended family) of the rightness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We must be a "witness" to that rightness if it takes our whole energy. Of course this must be done in love and charity, not with self rightesousness, because an attitude of self rightesousness would show that we aren't trying to prove Christ is the only way, but that we are the only way, which is opposite to the message of the good word.

[candyprpl]

How can we show perfect judgment like Jesus Christ? His judgment always came from a loving position. Don't you think he sometimes rankled feathers when he judged? Did he love all those he judged? Was not his love for all of us, perfect? Do you think his counseling was always met with agreement?

We have a choice in the matter. If someone points something out to me that I feel is an unjust judgment, I can choose to come unglued or I can look to see if the judgment has any truth. I've grown a lot and become a better person when I've done the latter. I sometimes fail at loving myself the way Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ love me and that has always been the bottom line to feeling unjustly judged.

A very important lesson I learned when I was just 14 -- I was painfully shy and I was in a big middle school and I walked down the large crowded hallways never saying anything to anyone. One day in class a girl who sat in front of me started talking to me and suddenly after a few minutes of conversation said, you're nice, I used to think you were stuck-up. I asked her why and she said because I never said hi to anyone. I was grateful that she was so candid with me. Her perception of me was totally wrong but she was able to get it cleared up by stepping forward. The lesson I learned was to never judge someone externally.

My opinion and only because I've seen it work possitivly in my life, is, the most loving thing you can do for a person is to let them know how they might improve their life. Whoa! Now be careful with this! We should only do this if we can do it the way Christ would do it. And stewardship plays a huge role in that! I once went to my Bishop in tears (he was not one to beat around the bush) and quickly told me he thought I just needed this particular humbling experience. I could have chosen to be upset at his supposed uncaring attitude and walked out of the church, never to return or anything in between, but instead I took it as sound counseling and when I realized he was coming from love just by showing up at the appointed time, I grew from this experience.

Now if you've read thus far -- you're probably getting sick of my rant. Am I perfect, HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Do I still make mistakes? Do I still need help in loving myself and others? YOU BET!!! Thank goodness I have Jesus Christ to show me the way!

[Elphaba]

My opinion and only because I've seen it work possitivly in my life, is, the most loving thing you can do for a person is to let them know how they might improve their life. Whoa! Now be careful with this! We should only do this if we can do it the way Christ would do it. And stewardship plays a huge role in that!

Obviously you are aware of how careful you must be when you tell someone how to improve her life, as demonstrated by your "whoa." And what I write below does not apply to you personally, but to all of us, including me, who pop in with resolutions without permission, and without understanding the entire situation.

The ONLY time we should advise someone how to improve her life is if she ASKS for your input. Other than that, it is a huge judgment to presume to

know what he/she should do in a given situation.

It is a very, very tricky call, and when one person offers advice by telling him what he should do, she puts herself in a position of authority. And thus, she has judged him, even though she never meant to do so.

I DO THIS ALL OF THE TIME! My daughter was over the other day crying about a situation with her boyfriend (that turned out to be a misunderstanding). I knew she just needed to vent, yet I kept popping in with information I thought would help her. I am very bad at this.

I have a friend who I talk to on the phone every two weeks or so. She has some difficult situations in her life right now, and I do the same "popping in" to her, as I know I have some answers she does not. And when I do, she tells me straight out "Shut up! I'm not done!" I love it!

This thread has been an eye-opener for me.

Elphaba

[bert10]

Hi Misshalfway.

<> We can judge all fruits after tasting it.

<> We are not allowed to judge the person only the fruits of the person.

There are several reasons for this.

1. Every person whether just or unjust has a portion of the Spirit of Christ. Just as When we feed the hungry, clothed the naked is doing it to Christ, so is judging another is doing it to Christ.

2. A righteous Judgment is a judgment that is RIGHT according to God's Right. So a Righteous judgment can only come when it is given by the Spirit of God.

3. No man is allowed to judge another man except he is that man's Spiritual leader and has been given the Spirit of judgment.

4. We can move away from judging good and evil..for example by labeling Life experiences as comfortable or uncomfortable. In this way we do not tend to thank and praise God only just for what we consider to be good that happens in our life but for all things. This is truly being thankful and grateful.

5. Moving away from Good and Evil to everything is "ALL GOOD" is a giant leap and for some and it may take a long time.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Do you all think it is possible NOT to judge all the events and choices and happenings of our lives and relationships?

Have you ever stopped to think that you don't have to make a judgment? And I am talking about the ones we know we are making and the ones we don't.

Why do we have to decide the "goodness" or "badness", or "rightness" or "wrongness" of any given act or person?

And when we do engage in all of this evaluating, what is it then that seduces us into believing that we are right???

Judging then leads us to having to do something about it. We judge it and then we apply all sorts of stuff like guilt and shame. We judge ourselves harshly and others harshly and go around laying out guilt trips and doing annoying things like apologizing for everything!

Been reading this book -- "Learning to Love" by Don and Martha Rosenthal. It is a relationship book that is now at top of my all time favorites list.

In the end of the book, they talk about the difference between being a "judge" and a "witness" with regards to others and the events of our relationships.

I am thinking a lot about how much loving I am when I simple witness the actions of others and myself. I can just observe that Jeb and Marva didn't make it to church again. I don't have to anaylize "why not". I can see myself make a mistake and understand better why I did without all the burden of having to judge.