Works are NOT required for Salvation

[AnthonyB]

RO 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. [NIV]

I think when you read the word "works" in Paul's writtings the above definition should be taken into account. Works are things that obligate wages, it does not IMHO mean all actions that people do. Nothing we can do can purchase (or obligate God to give us) the righteousness that comes through faith by means of the atonement. It is a gift beyond all price and one we could never afford to buy, even if we had a currency to do so.

However a gift giver can set the conditions of eligibility for the receiving a gift, but in achieving these the gift receiver is not obligating the giving of a gift. They have not bought the gift or have the right to demand the gift. (Nor does it preclude the gift giver giving outside of these conditions if he so chooses.)

PC would I think say that the only condition is faith for receiving this gift and I would agree. The question comes down to what is faith? Sometimes it can be portrayed as merely mental assent. As if just comprehending the gospel in the mind and nothing more is needed. I can't but feel that a real faith causes a response in people, to believe, repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and to walk in obediance to Christ's commandments.

The Gospel implants a sense of son/daughterhood in people, God is now our Dad and we are his family. Just as a child adopted into a family, changes to becomes part of that family, takes on the ways, habits etc of his new family, so should a new child of God. It may take time but if they are truly part of the family they will change. If there is no change then the relationship would appear not to be there.

As for near univeralism of LDS teaching, I would love this very much to be true. However it is not only scripture that makes me think this unlikely it is people themselves. Too many people are so determined to be their own boss and do their own things that even if they were given an eternity to repent they would simply not accept God's grace but every day grow more resentful of God for some slight or imagined wrong they suffered. Unless your going to have God over-ride their wills, many I fear simply would never will to turn to God not matter what. (There are a lot of C S Lewis fans on this site, his book "The Great Divorce" I think captures well the resistance of people to God's grace.)

Edited October 28, 2008 by AnthonyB

[Moksha]

Other Christian faiths teach that it is by Grace that we are Saved, and that our works only earn us greater Heavenly rewards.

Heavenly rewards if we have enough brownie points? Sign me up! :)

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I think the desire to do good works is implicit in the message of Jesus. He did not want us to just talk the talk, he wanted us to walk the walk.

What good would his greatest commandment be, if we only said we loved God and our fellow beings and ourselves? Would this alone produce good fruit? I think he meant for us to put these ideals into operation in our lives. I think Jesus would want us to do works in which we strove to be kind, generous, helpful, and never an impediment for the welfare of others. By giving of ourselves, is such a loving manner, we can produce that good and desired fruit.

.

[Jenamarie]

Heavenly brownies. Mmmmmmm.

[Snow]

A sticking point I find some Christians present as their reason for disagreeing with the LDS church (among many) is how we believe works are required for Salvation.

The fact is that we DON'T.

That, no doubt, would be a surprise to Nephi who wrote: “For we labor diligently … to persuade our children … to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23).

Dallin H. Oaks, a member of The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles says of the passage: "It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end."

Are Nephi and Elder Oaks mistaken? We need do nothing in order to be saved?

[BenRaines]

What is defined as "Being Saved". From spiritual death, separation from the presence of The Father and The Son? From eternal death, once dead we stay dead?

I think that is where the hairs are split.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

It's not about timing, PC.

So, our "works" do not save us from death and hell... only Christ's do. Our works are performed out of love for Christ and His word, and He will/can extend a greater kingdom to those who love Him enough to keep His commandments.

If the three kingdoms of heaven can all be considered heaven, since they are, afterall, heavenly kingdoms, then it absolutely is a matter of timing. Works cannot get us into heaven. HOwever, our faithfulness within God's place might garner us a different place WITHIN heaven. Protestants believe that there is a judgment for believers, and some accept that there will be different rewards depending on our responsiblity, obedience and faith.

So, we are saved by grace, and works are the product of our faith, and can signal just what type of heavenly reward we are heading towards.

[prisonchaplain]

"Faith without works is dead" says James 2:20.

For me, that pretty much covers it.

If this verse is saying that no works is an indication of no faith, I'd agree. However, that does not address the question of which came first, the grace and salvation, or the works garnering me salvation.

[prisonchaplain]

What is defined as "Being Saved". From spiritual death, separation from the presence of The Father and The Son? From eternal death, once dead we stay dead?

I think that is where the hairs are split.

Ben Raines

Being saved means spending eternity in heaven. If the telestial kingdom is a heavenly one, then I suppose it qualifies. The Protestant Catholic heaven, as I see it, is a combination of the Terrestial and Celestial kingdoms. After all, we believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit will all be present (celestial), that we will have glorified bodies (exaltation?), and many of except that there will be different rewards depending on faithfulness (perhaps some hint of terrestial?).

Salvation means a life not lived in condemnation and punishment. Hmm...perhaps the telestial kingdom wouldn't quite qualify...hard to say?

[Snow]

What is defined as "Being Saved". From spiritual death, separation from the presence of The Father and The Son? From eternal death, once dead we stay dead?

I think that is where the hairs are split.

Ben Raines

I don't think it is as simple as splitting hairs. Official LDS doctrine, as defined in the Standard Works by Nephi stipulates that salvation requires us to do all we can, which the Brethren regularly define as obedience to God and completion of certain ordinances. See the 3rd Article of Faith

If you claim that such is not salvation or that such is not required for salvation, then you are factually wrong.

I think I know the point the poster was trying to make... that Christ's atonement effectuates the general or unconditional salvation for all and that anything beyond such salvation is not salvation but some sort of other additive reward. However, the poster, according to The Book of Mormon and the 3rd Article of Faith and tons of General Conference talks by General Authorities, is incorrect.

[deseretgov]

The way I look at it is this, no mqatter how many times I'm baptised, no matter if I get the gift of the Holy Ghost; without the grace of Christ I cannot make it. There is nothing I can do to make it to the celestial kingdom. Only through Christ's grace can I make it. But there are things I can do that can keep me out of the celestial kingdom. If I decide not to be baptized that can keep me out. If I choose to not recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost, that can keep me out.

So there are certain works that are needed to qualify to enter the Celestial Kingdom, without Christ's grace those actions amount to nothing.

[Elgama]

ok this is just my take I actually think it is the same doctrine - imo if faith does not produce the desire to no more evil and to strive to grow close to Christ its not faith and the person is unconverted.

Whether you believe in Grace, Faith alone, works etc everyone seems agreed that a desire to do what is right is the result of converting to Christ. I personally believe unless you endure to the end you are not fully converted.

-Charley

[Jenamarie]

I don't think it is as simple as splitting hairs. Official LDS doctrine, as defined in the Standard Works by Nephi stipulates that salvation requires us to do all we can, which the Brethren regularly define as obedience to God and completion of certain ordinances. See the 3rd Article of Faith

If you claim that such is not salvation or that such is not required for salvation, then you are factually wrong.

I think I know the point the poster was trying to make... that Christ's atonement effectuates the general or unconditional salvation for all and that anything beyond such salvation is not salvation but some sort of other additive reward. However, the poster, according to The Book of Mormon and the 3rd Article of Faith and tons of General Conference talks by General Authorities, is incorrect.

Aaaahhhhhgggggg! I really didn't think my post was going to be so hard to "get"!

I'm talking about Salvation from Hell, from Outer Darkness. Without the Atonement of Christ, without His GRACE, we would all be destined for that horrible, awful place. His Atonement has SAVED us from that, and now it is up to us to follow HIM and keep his Commandments, and do work to achieve EXALTATION.

Perhaps Salvation has a dual meaning in LDS Doctrine: one meaning Saved from Hell/Outter Darkness/Endless Death, the other meaning being Exaltation. I am talking about the Salvation from physical and Spiritual Death in my OP.

And I take that Nephi scripture differently. I see it as saying that, after all we can do, it is still Grace that saves us, not our "doing". We can do good works until our fingers are worn down to the bone, but without Christ's Grace it would count for nothing. We cannot Save ourselves.

[Hemidakota]

Jenne, as Paul stated, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," Christ did and so do I. Sorry, if anyone knows the implication of Salvation and what is required, you will feel that same FEAR & TREMBLING as those who proceeded us.

[Jenamarie]

But other than Denying the Holy Spirit, what minimum number of works do I have to fail to achieve to qualify myself for a place in Outter Darkness? There isn't, is there? I'll at the very least end up in the Tellestial Kingdom, right? Not Hell?

Am I missing something????

[deseretgov]

But other than Denying the Holy Spirit, what minimum number of works do I have to fail to achieve to qualify myself for a place in Outter Darkness? There isn't, is there? I'll at the very least end up in the Tellestial Kingdom, right? Not Hell?

Am I missing something????

Nope you're not missing anything. If person goes through life doing nothing they will still end up in heaven. The Tellestial Kingdom part of heaven but still Heaven,

[Hemidakota]

Murder will also qualify you for Outer-Darkness. Anyone who is chosen and part of the Church of the First Born, who refuses to repent and fight against the church or the Savior, will face the same locality. Why would want to be left behind in this Solar System when we could enjoy our eternality with the Savior?

Now, for those who seek the face of GOD or the Godhead, become part of their testimony, anything less than the Celestial state would hell for them. Knowing it but not doing it is a serious issue for them. As partakers of Savior eternal rewards, we will face endless trials in mortality. It is up to us, to accept it and keep moving forward, towards that eternal goal.

Our journey of perfection will not begin until one reaches the last requirement, the everlasting covenant, or eternal marriage. From here, we adjust our will to be HIS will. We adjust our worldly status to one who serves with humility and sincerity. The changes when enter this phase of mortality in seeking perfection, our lives will become as one who now walks in the Savior's shoes. Our faith will grow by through the Holy Ghost when we are presented before the Godhead, as friend and not a servant. At that point, the person will receive the fullness of GOD. This should be our motivation to reach in this life. After this reception, we begin to have those mysteries unfold before our eyes. We still fear and tremble over our own salvation.

Church news release this article back in September 1995, “Working out One’s Salvation Requires Constant Effort, Faith

Paul's admonition to the Philippians, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," (Philip. 2:12) was explained by President David O. McKay in the opening address of general conference in April 1957:

"Salvation is a process of gradual development. The Church does not accept the doctrine that a mere murmured belief in Jesus Christ is all that is necessary. A man may say he believes, but if he does nothing to make that belief or faith a moving power to do, to accomplish, to produce soul growth, his professing will avail him nothing. 'Work out your own salvation' is an exhortation to demonstrate by activity, by thoughtful, obedient effort the reality of faith. But this must be done with a consciousness that absolute dependence upon self may produce pride and weakness that will bring failure. With 'fear and trembling' we should seek the strength and grace of God for inspiration to obtain the final victory.

"To work out one's salvation is not to sit idly by dreaming and yearning for God miraculously to thrust bounteous blessings into our laps. It is to perform daily, hourly, momentarily, if necessary, the immediate task or duty at hand, and to continue happily in such performance as the years come and go, leaving the fruits of such labors either for self or for others to be bestowed as a just and beneficent Father may determine.

"I am not unmindful of the scripture that declares: 'by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.' (Eph. 2:8.) That is absolutely true, for man in his taking upon himself mortality was impotent to save himself. When left to grope in a natural state, he would have become, and did become, so we are told in modern scripture, 'carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature.' (Alma 42:10.) But the Lord, through his grace, appeared to man, gave him the gospel or eternal plan whereby he might rise above the carnal and selfish things of life and obtain spiritual perfection. But he must rise by his own efforts and he must walk by faith."

It is never over until we are brought before the Godhead and receive the same rewards as Abraham does now enjoy.

[Jenamarie]

Nope you're not missing anything. If person goes through life doing nothing they will still end up in heaven. The Tellestial Kingdom part of heaven but still Heaven,

THANK YOU! I was really starting to think there was something I'd missed in my 26 years in the church. This is exactly what I'm talking about. EVERYONE, UNIVERSALLY, is "Saved" from Outter Darkness unless they deny the Holy Spirit. No amount of works, or non-works, will change that. We are ALL SAVED. Not by Works, but by the Grace of Christ.

We need to shout this from the roof tops to our Christian friends so that the erronious belief that Mormons believe we're "Saved by Works" (meaning Saved from Hell by works) can be disspelled. It is Christ and Christ alone who Saves us from that awful awful fate.

Works play a different roll. Once Saved from Hell, our Works make us better people, and qualify us for Exaltation. They are the evidence of our conversion and grattitude for Christ and His Atonement. But even if we failed to be converted and didn't care two wits about Christ, we'd still qualify for the bare minimum "glory" of the Tellestial Kingdom, because His Grace is sufficient and mighty to Save.

[chancer74]

:::NON-MORMON, WEIGHING IN--RATHER HEFTLY, BTW...:::

The sticking point, as the OP suggests, is over what entails CONVERSION. Most evangelicals equate conversion with salvation. LDS tend to conflate "enduring to the end" with ultimate salvation--thus the emphasis on doing good works, obeying, observing the sacraments (Temple, etc.). Then, we evangelicals say, "Aha! You are working your way to heaven...how arrogant and wrong!"

As for Ottopop's question--there is a variety of opinions on the rewards of heaven. Some Baptists believe in "once saved always saved," and do view heaven as a classless society (if everyone is rich, then???). On the other hand, those from my tradition (emphasis on free will...or agency) take the passages that say things like "to whom much is given much is required" and parables like the Widow and her mite, to mean that our rewards, while all glorious, will vary. IMHO, the greater rewards will like translate as greater responsiblities in God's kingdom, rather than more luxurious living.

As I see it, LDS theology (from my evangelical perspective) is not as guilty of "works salvation" as we make it out to be. Nevertheless, the teaching in the Articles of Faith that we still must do all that we can for our salvation, and this natural tendency to conflate salvation with "enduring to the end" makes me uncomfortable, and is probably too much for Calvinists (who stress God's Sovereignity and our total inability to influence grace) to accept.

Where does it talk about our works in the A of F? Thanks for your comments.

[Snow]

Aaaahhhhhgggggg! I really didn't think my post was going to be so hard to "get"!

It wasn't hard to get. It was simply wrong, or at the very least, inaccurate and misleading.

A more correct view would be that no action on man's part was required in order to benefit from the least kind of salvation - the general or unconditional salvation, but that much was required for the fullness of salvation.

I'm talking about Salvation from Hell, from Outer Darkness. Without the Atonement of Christ, without His GRACE, we would all be destined for that horrible, awful place. His Atonement has SAVED us from that, and now it is up to us to follow HIM and keep his Commandments, and do work to achieve EXALTATION.

Could you reference some official source of doctrine that holds that without the atonement, we would all be cast into outer darkness please.

Perhaps Salvation has a dual meaning in LDS Doctrine: one meaning Saved from Hell/Outter Darkness/Endless Death, the other meaning being Exaltation. I am talking about the Salvation from physical and Spiritual Death in my OP.

Or better yet, according to Dallin H, Oaks, it has six meanings: LDS.org - Ensign Article - Have You Been Saved?

And I take that Nephi scripture differently. I see it as saying that, after all we can do, it is still Grace that saves us, not our "doing". We can do good works until our fingers are worn down to the bone, but without Christ's Grace it would count for nothing. We cannot Save ourselves.

No one disputes that we cannot save ourselves, that is a function of grace. However, such grace, in terms of the fullness of salvation, is not extended to those that don't qualify through obedience.

[Jenamarie]

And I'm refering to Grace as traditional Christianity defines it, NOT how the LDS church defines it. If you say to a traditional Christian that you believe works are a part of Salvation, they'll like look at you like you sprouted a second head and wonder what the heck kind of "Christian" are you to be putting conditions on Christ's FREE GIFT of Grace.

LDS and traditional Christians see being Saved differently. I know that. Which is why we need to sometimes speak to them in *there* terms first, before expounding on what additional teachings we have in regards to being Saved, because otherwise they would probably quickly dismiss us as being heretical for believing that works has ANY roll in being Saved from Hell.

[AnthonyB]

Using traditional Christians terms, both justification and sanctification are parts of salvation, justification (or being declared right before God through Christ's sacrifice) leads to being saved from Hell, sanctification (being made holy) occurs after being saved and involves us working out our salvation.

Would it be fair to say...

LDS believe "justification" is a universal free gift of grace not obtained by works but through the atoning work of Christ.

LDS believe "sanctification" occurs through works, the harder you work, the more you are sanctified (ie made holy), the closer you can be to God. Closeness to God is designated in 3 levels of glory but even within those their are various levels of glory.

[bytor2112]

The affects of Christ's atonement pass to all mankind in that they will be ressurected and have everlasting life. Eternal life....exaltation...... requires obedience and ordinances.

This from one of my fav talks": by Bruce R McConkie

His atonement is the most transcendent event that ever has or ever will occur from Creation’s dawn through all the ages of a never-ending eternity.

It is the supreme act of goodness and grace that only a god could perform. Through it, all of the terms and conditions of the Father’s eternal plan of salvation became operative.

Through it are brought to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Through it, all men are saved from death, hell, the devil, and endless torment.

And through it, all who believe and obey the glorious gospel of God, all who are true and faithful and overcome the world, all who suffer for Christ and his word, all who are chastened and scourged in the Cause of him whose we are—all shall become as their Maker and sit with him on his throne and reign with him forever in everlasting glory.

[Jenamarie]

Using traditional Christians terms, both justification and sanctification are parts of salvation, justification (or being declared right before God through Christ's sacrifice) leads to being saved from Hell, sanctification (being made holy) occurs after being saved and involves us working out our salvation.

Would it be fair to say...

LDS believe "justification" is a universal free gift of grace not obtained by works but through the atoning work of Christ.

LDS believe "sanctification" occurs through works, the harder you work, the more you are sanctified (ie made holy), the closer you can be to God. Closeness to God is designated in 3 levels of glory but even within those their are various levels of glory.

That would be fair.

[prisonchaplain]

Where does it talk about our works in the A of F? Thanks for your comments.

I believe that Articles 3 & 4 are most relevant. Articles of Faith 1

[prisonchaplain]

I'm a bit concerned that the "salvation," being offered here--a "universal salvation based on the atonement of Christ"--does not even require faith in Christ or repentence of sins?