Opposition to political parties?

[JohnBirchSociety]

At the Church website, regarding "Political Neutrality":

"The Church does not: Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms..." (Emphasis Added)

Are we SERIOUS? Do we not oppose the Communist Party? Is this possible?

As a Church, we do not oppose the Communist Party, or any other political party that has, as its' goal, the abject destruction of human liberty?

SERIOUSLY?

Then, from the recent letter from the First Presidency (September 11, 2008, I can't stand the irony on this!):

"Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties." (Emphasis Added)

You have got to be kidding me? Are we saying there is good in the multitude of different political parties? REALLY?

I'm really floored by this. Maybe it is nothing to you, to me, it is monumental.

As a Latter-Day Saint I am opposed to the Communist Party. I am opposed to the Socialist Party. There is NOTHING of good or the gospel in either of them. They both advocate slavery.

Come on, this cannot REALLY be true?

[Gillebre]

Sorry to disappoint, but the Lord thinks so, if His prophet declared as much.

[Elphaba]

Down boy!

"The Church does not: Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms..." (Emphasis Added)

What is wrong this? Obviously the statement is meant to let the Church's members exercise their free agency?

Then, from the recent letter from the First Presidency (September 11, 2008, I can't stand the irony on this!):

. . . . Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties." (Emphasis Added)

Note the quote does not say "All Principles." Thus, each party may contain some of the "principles" referred to, which is, in my opinion, true.

Also note the word "various." "Various" does not mean all. The way the word various is used in this sentence, it is not all encompassing.

You have got to be kidding me? Are we saying there is good in the multitude of different political parties? REALLY?

First, there is not a "multitude" of different political parties in America. There are many, but not a multitude. Edit: I googled "American Political Parties," and found there was indeed, a "multitude" of them. So I was wrong about this.

Second, I'm curious to know what parties you believe do have some good in them.

As a Latter-Day Saint I am opposed to the Communist Party. I am opposed to the Socialist Party. There is NOTHING of good or the gospel in either of them. They both advocate slavery.

Again, the Communist party does not necessarily fit into the category of "various. The comment does not preclude your opposition to the Communist Party.

Elphaba

Edited September 29, 2008 by Elphaba
To correct my comment about a "multitude" of political parties.

[Prodigal_Son]

We're also taught that "he who must be commanded in all things is a slothful and not a wise servant."

I suspect that the church is working hard to establish neutrality. If we openly condemn communism and socialism, how are we going to ever get missionaries into China and other such places??

Any righteous saint who's worth their salt knows the truth of these matters. But "the church" has to work in a politically correct world in such a manner that we don't shoot ourselves in the foot.

The church doesn't need to say it. We should all already know it.

I believe it was Monson who, years ago, said "just because something is a truth doesn't mean it always needs to be said." (He was referring to using tact in our relationships. I think it applies here, too.)

[Gillebre]

We condemned communism when it was a significant threat, such as with the former Soviet Union. Now that they aren't murdering tens of millions of their own citizens, or actively conspiring to destroy the freedoms of all men, there are more important things to worry about.

China now, and the USSR decades ago may have a similar political system in power, but they aren't the same.

[Moksha]

I dislike reliving the cold war. It produced too many extremists. Moderation in all things is great.

[ErikJohnson]

Maybe it's not surprising, but it's none-the-less disappointing that the LDS Church won't actively support legislative efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Gay marriage--It's a travesty! We must pull out all the stops to prevent legislation recognizing homosexual marriage, separation of church and state can go hang.

Murder of the unborn--Yeah, that's not good, but it would be worse if we trampled on anyone's "free agency."

Makes no sense, IMHO. Perhaps someone here can explain it...

--Erik

[Elphaba]

separation of church and state can go hang.

Shall we just ignore the Constitution completely?

Oh, wait. Our "leaders" already have.

Elphaba

[rockwoodchev]

I certainly can't explain why the church chooses to pick some political battles to come away from their non-neutral stance and why other times they choose to ignore. The OP has some very good points, but I think they have been answered here. I think there are "some" elements of good to be found in most every party everywhere in the world.

(also, to the person who responded about there not being a "multitude of political parties in America" tends to forget that this church is no longer hold a majority membership of Americans. )

I think the church would do better to maintain a 100% netrality in all aspects and let people make their own minds up, without using church resources to influence. Once you start down that slippery slope, I think it is tough to decide when and what battles to fight.

When the church ends up losing this battle in California. Do they then make the decision to fight it in the following states? Do they move on to Assisted Suicide in some state, or try for abortion fights in some country in South America?

[Wingnut]

Maybe it's not surprising, but it's none-the-less disappointing that the LDS Church won't actively support legislative efforts to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Gay marriage--It's a travesty! We must pull out all the stops to prevent legislation recognizing homosexual marriage, separation of church and state can go hang.

Murder of the unborn--Yeah, that's not good, but it would be worse if we trampled on anyone's "free agency."

Makes no sense, IMHO. Perhaps someone here can explain it...

--Erik

It's pretty easy to explain, actually.

(1) Agency.

(2) Article of Faith #12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Note that it doesn't say that we believe in overthrowing the law. Also, any overturn of Roe v. Wade would likely not allow for abortion in cases of rape, incest, or severe health concerns.

(3) We are not a United States of America church. We are a worldwide church and just can't take on political issues in all our countries.

(4) I don't know how many times this has to be repeated, but not everyone in the church agrees with you, which means that the church itself will not take a stance on parties. It has in the past urged members to address specific issues, but only very occasionally.

[Palerider]

Another thing to keep in mind is...back when there was a East and West Germany...the Church encouraged all memebrs living in East Germany to obey the laws of the land etc just like they teach everywhere in the world. Obey the laws of the land...

[Elphaba]

(also, to the person who responded about there not being a "multitude of political parties in America" tends to forget that this church is no longer hold a majority membership of Americans. )

I am the one who said this and your comment is nonsensical.

I think you're saying the majority of Saints are no longer in America? I agree with that.

But that does not mean there is a "multitude" of political parties in America. Edit: I did a google search and discovered I was wrong. There are, indeed and "multitude" of political partes in America. Howevever, I still don't understand your comment.

So what is your point?

Elphaba

Edited September 29, 2008 by Elphaba
Added a retraction about there not being a "multitude" of political parties.

[checkerboy]

Down Girl!!!

[Wingnut]

Another thing to keep in mind is...back when there was a East and West Germany...the Church encouraged all memebrs living in East Germany to obey the laws of the land etc just like they teach everywhere in the world. Obey the laws of the land...

Excellent example, Palerider. As a result of church members being such upstanding citizens in East Germany, many of the saints were permitted by the government to actually cross the borders in order to attend the temple.

[Palerider]

Excellent example, Palerider. As a result of church members being such upstanding citizens in East Germany, many of the saints were permitted by the government to actually cross the borders in order to attend the temple.

you are correct.....and some of the general authorities met with the leaders of East Germany at that time and they talked about building a Temple there.

[Heavenguard]

It's really the church's way of saying they're not going to tell you how to vote, which, I think, is very smart. To endorse a political party would pressure the church body to vote a certain way, which borders on infringing on each individual person's right to choose and vote for themselves. My church doesn't endorse (or oppose) any party, but it does oppose certain political views regardless of parties involved.

Besides ... I agree with communism ... in theory. No so much the practical application of it, because I don't believe that anyone in politics has pure enough intentions to actually do it right. But in theory.

[Elphaba]

Down Girl!!!

Once again, Checker, I can't "THANK" you.

Are you sure you didn't block me somehow? I don't have this problem with anyone else.

Elphie

[Prodigal_Son]

Besides ... I agree with communism ... in theory. No so much the practical application of it, because I don't believe that anyone in politics has pure enough intentions to actually do it right. But in theory.

I don't think we want to start this mess, but I can't help but say that communism is Satan's plan. You're forcing people to do it. Where's man's God-given agency in that?

[Yellowhill]

Let us not create any more voids between are brothers and sisters. We all come on this path at different times, we need to uphold the US constitution, yes the present day leaders have gone astray, big money, greed etc. It seems that all the players want to use the Christian hand. Our role should not move people back away from us, but be inviting to our faith. Moderation, moderation, moderation, is best served for our purposes. We need to stand for what we believe, but also respect other souls choices., It saddens me when people vote party lines, and not vote for best candidate. Likewise it saddens me when people joke and call us non- Christians, LITTLE DO THEY KNOW THE POWER AND AUTHORITY THAT COMES WITH THIS FAITH.

[pam]

Once again, Checker, I can't "THANK" you.

Are you sure you didn't block me somehow? I don't have this problem with anyone else.

Elphie

That's kind of what I was thinking Elphaba.

[pam]

As in the case of the quote mentioned in the OP...I believe the message was meant concerning the current Presidential Campaign. They were reemphasizing that the Church does not support a given political party nor it's candidates. I think more was read into that statement than was meant.

[rockwoodchev]

I am the one who said this and your comment is nonsensical.

I think you're saying the majority of Saints are no longer in America? I agree with that.

But that does not mean there is a "multitude" of political parties in America. Edit: I did a google search and discovered I was wrong. There are, indeed and "multitude" of political partes in America. Howevever, I still don't understand your comment.

So what is your point?

Elphaba

Hi Elphaba... Hey. I'm just finishing up reading Wicked. Have you read the book, or a fan of the play? I'm going for the first time this fall. Can't wait. The book is so-so.

I'm bothered by the trend we have in the states to just think about our country when we make comments. So, as you found, not only in the US are there multiple political parties, if you look at the fact that the church is a world-wide church, there are probably hundreds of political parties. Make better sense now?

Edited September 29, 2008 by rockwoodchev

[a-train]

I suspect that if a vote were put to the people of the U.S. on the question of abortion then we would be getting a statement out of Salt Lake similar to this recent statement regarding the California ballot issue. The position of the Church on abortion is firmly that the protection of the right to life of the unborn is a social moral obligation and the failure to so protect the unborn is repugnant.

Allow me to place my own emphasis on the recent statement about voting in general (which was read in our sacrament meeting today):

Latter-day Saints as citizens are to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political parties.

In my opinion, this could have been just like saying: "Stop blindly voting down the Republican ticket!" We all know the LDS people here in the states vote mainly with the Republican Party. Although I can't see why. That party counts on us at every election but is not willing to support us at all. It should further be noted that the statement did NOT say: "found in either of the two major parties". If I were a gambler, I'd bet the average Joe Mormon, like the average Joe American, could not even name the other political parties, much less their respective nominies for presidency.

The letter also says:

"Therefore, in this election year, we urge you to register to vote, to study the issues and candidates carefully and prayerfully, and then to vote for and actively support those you believe will most nearly carry out your ideas of good government,"

There is what the LDS people are NOT doing. Most of them have decided how they are going to vote simply by asking one question: "Who did the Republicans nominate?" We are being counseled to do more than that. We are to study the issues and the candidates carefully and prayerfully.

The reality is that many of the current Republican initiatives are NOT compatible with the LDS view of free agency. And while they pay lip service to some of our principles, they betray them with regularity.

The letter as a whole is telling us to look outside the box and make better educated decisions about our political stances and then work hard to keep our government within its proper roles.

-a-train

[Elphaba]

Hi Elphaba... Hey. I'm just finishing up reading Wicked. Have you read the book, or a fan of the play? I'm going for the first time this fall. Can't wait. The book is so-so.

Hi Rockwood,

Yes, I have read the book, and its sequel, "Son of a Witch." I loved the books quite a bit, though they certainly are not for everyone. Many people agree with you that it was so so.

Also, you probably already know this, but about the only thing the play takes from the book is the names. If not, it would have rivaled Sweeney Todd.

And no, I have not seen the play in person, but I have Youtubes of almost every song, although they've removed the good ones. So, I feel I know the play rather well, but have wanted to see it forever.

So, I AM GOING TO WICKED ON APRIL 11!!!! My daughter gave me an early birthday present, and just spent $300 a ticket to see it, although $300 is probably very cheap compared to other cities/states. And those were the cheap seats.

I'm bothered by the trend we have in the states to just think about our country when we make comments. So, as you found, not only in the US are there multiple political parties, if you look at the fact that the church is a world-wide church, there are probably hundreds of political parties. Make better sense now?

Yes, and I agree completely. In fact, it would be interesting to know how members around the world vote, and for whom, in their respective countries.

I just assumed the OP was about America's political parties. Thank you for pointing out how short-sighted that is.

Elphaba

[JohnBirchSociety]

We condemned communism when it was a significant threat, such as with the former Soviet Union. Now that they aren't murdering tens of millions of their own citizens, or actively conspiring to destroy the freedoms of all men, there are more important things to worry about.

China now, and the USSR decades ago may have a similar political system in power, but they aren't the same.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but Communism IS THE threat to our civic liberty on this planet.

They (the communists) are murdering just as much as they did in the "Cold War". They are ACTIVELY conspiring to destroy the freedoms of all men, right at this very moment.

Most of the people of the world live under brutal communist dictatorship (China, N. Korea, Cuba, Venezula, Russia, etc.)....