Abortion is an assult on the defenseless.

[Fiannan]

Death Rates from Wars

With that understanding and reverence for life, we deplore the loss of life associated with warfare. The data are appalling. In World War I, more than 8 million military fatalities occurred. In World War II, more than 22 million servicemen and women died.2 Together, these two wars, covering portions of 14 years, cost the lives of at least 30 million soldiers worldwide. That figure does not include the millions of civilian casualties.

These data, however, are dwarfed by the toll of another war that claims more casualties annually than did World War I and World War II combined. Worldwide reports indicate that more than 40 million abortions are performed per year.3

This war called abortion is a war on the defenseless and the voiceless. It is a war on the unborn. This war is being waged globally. Ironically, civilized societies that have generally placed safeguards on human life have now passed laws that sanction this practice.

All this leaves us with is the question as to what we can do individually, in our families and in our nations to combat this practice. I believe that educating our youth as to what abortion is all about as well as reaching out to others can counteract the prevailing culture that tolerates this practice.

[a-train]

I cannot help but cry for these young women and their babies who are so used and harmed by society. It is utterly horrible. These young girls are taught the ways of the world and are shamed and scorned into trouble. They are made to feel worthless if they do not engage in sexual activity. And when they finally do, they are scorned even more if they become pregnant and the solution to the madness is offered from every direction: abortion. We must pledge ourselves to keep our daughters and sisters out of the hands of infidels who seek only their destruction. As a father, I intend to make clear that I will use whatever force necessary, including LETHAL force in the protection of my daughter's chastity.

-a-train

[rastler000]

All this leaves us with is the question as to what we can do individually, in our families and in our nations to combat this practice. I believe that educating our youth as to what abortion is all about as well as reaching out to others can counteract the prevailing culture that tolerates this practice.

What form would this education take?

[Fiannan]

Opps, left the link out:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Abortion: An Assault on the Defenseless

Education? I think first and formost we need to teach our our children about life, about sex and about the value of family. That would include discussing issues like abortion as well as associated issues like the Proclaimation on the Family and the desperate shortage of children being born in the western world and much of Asia. Then when discussions come up in middle school and high school classes your kids will be able to present facts that will inform others. Then there is communication through the internet, at the county fair one can volunteer for helping in pro-life groups efforts, letters to the editor, etc. Many people really don't know the facts concerning pre-natal development and that abortion is much more than removing some undifferentiated tissue.

[pam]

I've always wondered how those of LDS faith who live in countries where only one child is the law handle these situations.

[melissar]

That would be a good question. I would imagine a great deal of prayer.

[rastler000]

Opps, left the link out:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Abortion: An Assault on the Defenseless

Education? I think first and formost we need to teach our our children about life, about sex and about the value of family. That would include discussing issues like abortion as well as associated issues like the Proclaimation on the Family and the desperate shortage of children being born in the western world and much of Asia. Then when discussions come up in middle school and high school classes your kids will be able to present facts that will inform others. Then there is communication through the internet, at the county fair one can volunteer for helping in pro-life groups efforts, letters to the editor, etc. Many people really don't know the facts concerning pre-natal development and that abortion is much more than removing some undifferentiated tissue.

Sounds like a good plan.

[Fiannan]

I've always wondered how those of LDS faith who live in countries where only one child is the law handle these situations.

Well, the only country on earth with such a policy is communist China. And that only covers certain provences (40% of the population). Hong Kong, the only place with any significant LDS Chinese (note, ethnic Chinese) population is not covered by the one child policy. China still has a birthrate higher than most of Europe and the east coast of the USA.

[thejason]

This matter calls for us to be better missionaries than we've ever been. The more people who understand the plan of salvation, the fewer abortions we'll have. Of course nobody can force another to not have an abortion, but if you want to have a hand in the reduction, share your testimony.

[rastler000]

This matter calls for us to be better missionaries than we've ever been. The more people who understand the plan of salvation, the fewer abortions we'll have. Of course nobody can force another to not have an abortion, but if you want to have a hand in the reduction, share your testimony.

With all due respect... you can share your testimony to be sure.... but when making the case against abortion, preaching (or sharing a testimony) to people who do not share your beliefs, and are also pro-choice, may not have the desired effect. It may seem as you are just preaching to them, and suggesting they should do as you suggest because it is "Gods will." I think the education as suggested by Fin would do better on this issue.

Just a thought and not really a criticism. :)

[ruthiechan]

With all due respect... you can share your testimony to be sure.... but when making the case against abortion, preaching (or sharing a testimony) to people who do not share your beliefs, and are also pro-choice, may not have the desired effect. It may seem as you are just preaching to them, and suggesting they should do as you suggest because it is "Gods will." I think the education as suggested by Fin would do better on this issue.

Just a thought and not really a criticism. :)

And this where asking for and listening to the Spirit on what words to say in such discussions comes in.

[ztodd]

• Alma 31: 5

  5 And now, as the preaching of the word had a great tendency to lead the people to do that which was just—yea, it had had more powerful effect upon the minds of the people than the sword, or anything else, which had happened unto them—therefore Alma thought it was expedient that they should try the virtue of the word of God.

The gospel of Christ really is the solution to everyone's problems. If only everyone would accept and live by it.

Hi everyone, sorry I've been away from this site for awhile.

Edited October 5, 2008 by ztodd

[Moksha]

As a father, I intend to make clear that I will use whatever force necessary, including LETHAL force in the protection of my daughter's chastity.

-a-train

Will you send the women folk out of the parlor while you discuss this with each of your daughter's young gentlemen callers?

[JcDean78]

Abortion is murder period. In some cases Murder is acceptable, such as war and the defense of your life. So in some cases the Murder of that Child might be permissable in situations where the mothers life is in danger just as taking the life of a person who breaks into your home with the difference being the child is innocent.

With any murderer, people who perform, have, or support abortions in any way should be brought up on charges of murder. To be in a so called civilized nation where we allow thousands of children to be barbaricly murdered every year just makes me sick.

But hey who wants to be "punish with a baby" anyway, I reserve such horrible punishment for only the most hardend criminals.

[a-train]

Will you send the women folk out of the parlor while you discuss this with each of your daughter's young gentlemen callers?

A showcase of my firearm and knife collection will come at no additional charge to the suitors.

Uncle Buck was a good man, but he was only the uncle, not the father. I do not intend to simply scare the young man. I will not issue threats. I will make frank warnings.

Many in today's society would rebuke me. They would say I lack charity for instilling fear. But let us remember that the man who hangs a warning sign on a post at an open pit has not committing an act of hatred, but of care.

-a-train

[rastler000]

Abortion is murder period. In some cases Murder is acceptable, such as war and the defense of your life. So in some cases the Murder of that Child might be permissable in situations where the mothers life is in danger just as taking the life of a person who breaks into your home with the difference being the child is innocent.

With any murderer, people who perform, have, or support abortions in any way should be brought up on charges of murder. To be in a so called civilized nation where we allow thousands of children to be barbaricly murdered every year just makes me sick.

But hey who wants to be "punish with a baby" anyway, I reserve such horrible punishment for only the most hardend criminals.

Well you can "call" it murder all you want but in this country it's not. And I might suggest to you that calling for the incarceration of millions of women, doctors, and family members of those women (aid and abetting murder), is probably more of a hinderance to ending abortion, or lessening the numbers, than it is a help. Not only won't you change any minds, but you'll probably just have the otherside just become more obstinate and set in their views. Thus - in an odd sort of a way - you probably 'help' those who are pro-choice.

Just an observation. :)

[Guest ceeboo]

Well you can "call" it murder all you want but in this country it's not.

Hello rastler,

A slightly different perspective, for what its worth.

Yes indeed, in this country it is murder.

It is also legal, But indeed murder.

God bless,

Carl

[rastler000]

Hello rastler,

A slightly different perspective, for what its worth.

Yes indeed, in this country it is murder.

It is also legal, But indeed murder.

God bless,

Carl

Well if you want to see it that way that's fine. To me it is a legal term, so I don't sweat it. However, I would be less likely to address your concerns about the issue if you were to approach me in this way. And I guess since I have loaned money (paid back) for an abortion, I am a murderer as well.

From my POV the way both sides demonizes each other actually leads to more abortions, then less. It is gridlocked so to speak, with neither side willing to listen to each other, and avenues to reduce the number of abortions never being bought to the table. This has the results of everything staying the same..... around a million abortions a year.

I am resigned to this basic reality.

[Guest ceeboo]

Well if you want to see it that way that's fine. To me it is a legal term, so I don't sweat it. However, I would be less likely to address your concerns about the issue if you were to approach me in this way. And I guess since I have loaned money (paid back) for an abortion, I am a murderer as well.

From my POV the way both sides demonizes each other actually leads to more abortions, then less. It is gridlocked so to speak, with neither side willing to listen to each other, and avenues to reduce the number of abortions never being bought to the table. This has the results of everything staying the same..... around a million abortions a year.

I am resigned to this basic reality.

Hi again rastler,

I was not demonizing you, I was simply sharing my thoughts of " both legal and murder ".

" less likely to adress my concerns "???:confused: Again, I was simply sharing with you

Although I also see it as a " reality " I am not in any way resigned to it, wether I would like to be or not.

At any rate, I do appreciate you sharing with me as well :)

Peace,

Carl

[rastler000]

Hi again rastler,

I was not demonizing you, I was simply sharing my thoughts of " both legal and murder ".

" less likely to adress my concerns "???:confused: Again, I was simply sharing with you

Although I also see it as a " reality " I am not in any way resigned to it, wether I would like to be or not.

At any rate, I do appreciate you sharing with me as well :)

Peace,

Carl

No worries. :)

[Fiannan]

From my POV the way both sides demonizes each other actually leads to more abortions, then less. It is gridlocked so to speak, with neither side willing to listen to each other, and avenues to reduce the number of abortions never being bought to the table. This has the results of everything staying the same..... around a million abortions a year.

I wonder though, who is guilty of demonizing? Most articles I have seen from a pro-life perspective seek to present the women and children as victims of a materialistic and amoral government policy. However, the stuff I see from the pro-choice side makes it appear that to hold a pro-life position is akin to being some religious zealot or right-winger who seeks to control the bodys of women.

Yes, the leadership of the pro-life movement tends to get down on government leaders who support abortion -- especially the ones who support partial birth aborition and even the few so liberal that they were against assisting babies accidentely born alive in an abortion. But the pro-life movment does not seek to demonize women who have been brought up in, like I said, a country where the government is at best ammoral and the dominant media filters out an objective view of abortion.

[rastler000]

I wonder though, who is guilty of demonizing? Most articles I have seen from a pro-life perspective seek to present the women and children as victims of a materialistic and amoral government policy. However, the stuff I see from the pro-choice side makes it appear that to hold a pro-life position is akin to being some religious zealot or right-winger who seeks to control the bodys of women.

Yes, the leadership of the pro-life movement tends to get down on government leaders who support abortion -- especially the ones who support partial birth aborition and even the few so liberal that they were against assisting babies accidentely born alive in an abortion. But the pro-life movment does not seek to demonize women who have been brought up in, like I said, a country where the government is at best ammoral and the dominant media filters out an objective view of abortion.

I would suggest that as long as you hold the attitude of "they are the bad guys and we are the good guys", as part of your educational efforts, that it will just stay at the same impasse it is now. I know a lot about the baby making process.... I have even done the teacher thing with very uncomfortable seventh and/or eighth graders watching the films and the process (minus the actual lovemaking of course). Have watched babies being born, but I am still pro-choice.

Basically, I am open to ways to limit abortions, however, if somebody just calls me "bad", or makes it a "conservative versus liberal" contest, or a "us versus them" contest, or calls me a "murderer", I don't see any particular reason to continue the conversation, and will just stay with the status quo, even though I don't consider it the ideal situation.

Actually I think I will leave this thread because as always, the conversation tends to lead to the contest, which leads to nothing getting accomplished except recriminations. It's been this way for 35 years and I doubt it will change.

[ztodd]

I would suggest that as long as you hold the attitude of "they are the bad guys and we are the good guys", as part of your educational efforts, that it will just stay at the same impasse it is now. I know a lot about the baby making process.... I have even done the teacher thing with very uncomfortable seventh and/or eighth graders watching the films and the process (minus the actual lovemaking of course). Have watched babies being born, but I am still pro-choice.

Basically, I am open to ways to limit abortions, however, if somebody just calls me "bad", or makes it a "conservative versus liberal" contest, or a "us versus them" contest, or calls me a "murderer", I don't see any particular reason to continue the conversation, and will just stay with the status quo, even though I don't consider it the ideal situation.

Actually I think I will leave this thread because as always, the conversation tends to lead to the contest, which leads to nothing getting accomplished except recriminations. It's been this way for 35 years and I doubt it will change.

You're very stubborn, aren't you? It's like someone's saying "You're doing wrong- you need to repent", and you're saying, "As long as you tell me that what I'm doing is wrong, I'm not going to listen to you. I don't care if you're right or not."

It seems like you're trying to take right or wrong out of the picture. I don't know how you can do that. Either abortion is right or it is wrong. Or if you need it to be further defined, "elective abortion for personal or social convenience" is either right or it is wrong.

[rastler000]

You're very stubborn, aren't you? It's like someone's saying "You're doing wrong- you need to repent", and you're saying, "As long as you tell me that what I'm doing is wrong, I'm not going to listen to you. I don't care if you're right or not."

It seems like you're trying to take right or wrong out of the picture. I don't know how you can do that. Either abortion is right or it is wrong. Or if you need it to be further defined, "elective abortion for personal or social convenience" is either right or it is wrong.

Okay, you win. I choose that it is right and will remain solidly pro-choice then. :)

[Fiannan]

Look, the baby in the womb is either a baby human or a lump of tissue -- abortion is either taking a life or removing unwanted biological material. There is no middle ground here. It's just like the old saying "If it's not a baby you ain't pregnant".

We can go round and round on issues like what methods are best to reduce unintended pregnancies or what social policies might assist women who get pregnant but are not in good social or financial situations but ultimately the issue is one of preserving the life of the child. Once a child gets conceived in the womb that child deserves protection.