The Trinity Questions – For Traditional Christians

[August]

The Trinity is really confusing, and something I struggle to really understand, but it's like the Church teaches, it's a mystery that our human mind isn't capable of comprehending.

It also should be noted that a lot of the heretical views on the Trinity came from peoples discomfort with the idea that God died, so they sought to put Jesus on a lower level than His Father, or to seperate them. I don't know which ones taught what though, have to look that one up.

[AnthonyB]

August,

If you get a chance I would love some more repsonses to my Q's on your views on the trinity (especially Q 1-4)?

[August]

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?

I suppose my answer to all of these is the same, that nothing is impossible for God. Our limited minds can't comprehend how Jesus is the Son of God, how he can pray to His Father, and yet still be fully God? God the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit are the exact same being, yet are also 3 persons. Don't take this as an official position, it's just the way I look at it, if any of the other Catholics here need to correct me, please do so.

I'll be the first to admit, if I look at things purely on logic the Trinity makes less sense than three seperate beings. It's one of those things I accept on faith, because I could never hope to fully understand the nature of God.

[candyprpl]

Hi everyone -- what a wonderful thread! Such respect from all -- it's been a pleasure reading all the posts.

I do believe the LDS view of the Godhead but I also understand what has been said in this thread. It's my everending problem -- always feeling caught in the middle. I would be a horrible debator -- I would say yes, you're right and when a rebuttal was stated, I'd say, yes, you're right.

I also have some of the same questions as Misshalfway and the answers have been informative. I still don't quite understand the explanations but I know that when the LDS try to explain some of our doctrine it gets confusing at times as well. I guess what's important is that we all have common beliefs and those are probably the only beliefs that matter to our salvation.

There are many mysteries about God that we are not to know in this life and I think we can all agree on that point.:)

[Misshalfway]

The Trinity is really confusing, and something I struggle to really understand, but it's like the Church teaches, it's a mystery that our human mind isn't capable of comprehending.

It also should be noted that a lot of the heretical views on the Trinity came from peoples discomfort with the idea that God died, so they sought to put Jesus on a lower level than His Father, or to seperate them. I don't know which ones taught what though, have to look that one up.

I don't think I can argue that there are things that we can't understand. But I don't think either, that it is beyond God's capability to help us understand or bring things to our understanding in simple clarity. In fact, I think he is absolutely eager to tell us and show us who he really is and to help us understand.

[candyprpl]

I don't think I can argue that there are things that we can't understand. But I don't think either, that it is beyond God's capability to help us understand or bring things to our understanding in simple clarity. In fact, I think he is absolutely eager to tell us and show us who he really is and to help us understand.

Well it may sound like we are saying two different things, so I'm going to clarify right now my point of view.

I agree that God can and does help us to understand -- what we are ready to understand. Just like Jesus' teaching in parables was for those who would hear and understand. I don't think all of us are prepared in this lifetime to know all, but we should keep trying to find the answers.

Did I make sense?

[Misshalfway]

Yes. My dear. You did make perfect sense. And I agree.

may not be prepared.....but we should all keep trying. yes.

[Guest knightinshiningarmour]

For an exercise in scholarship, study the scriptures and write your own creed. Then you can compare with the historic creeds and see where they differ.

I think that mentally, we all have a creed in mind of our own making. Might as well put it on paper.

[abqfriend]

Hi-Whatever "creed" we come out with-is indeed "our own making" For me, Sacred Tradition is important and for a member of the LDS Church The Book of Mormon and D&C would be important.

Do we limit-in both cases-scripture to the Old and New Testament?

In any case-such a "creed" or "articles of faith" would indeed be our own making,

Both religious traditions believe that the Holy Spirit/The Heavenly Father and/or prophesy or sacred tradition is active within their religious community of faith.

I often thought if you one could take just the OT and NT-and take it to a culture who never heard of any religion-to have them read the OT and NT--wth no prompting-and see what they come up with.-probably impossible to do-but would be interesting.

Each of us comes to our religious tradition/faith with a particular bias/teaching of our faith based on our past and present experiences with it and other faith traditions we may have been exposed to.

-Carol

For an exercise in scholarship, study the scriptures and write your own creed. Then you can compare with the historic creeds and see where they differ.

I think that mentally, we all have a creed in mind of our own making. Might as well put it on paper.

[brother01]

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

What does the trinity doctrine have to do with being a disciple of Jesus or faithful to Him or obedience to what He commanded? If God is One, why do some try to take a spiritual scalpel and dissect God somehow? Jesus said those who had seen Him had seen the Father. Jesus said His Father was greater than Him. Jesus said as we abide in Him and His word that we are one with Him as He is one with the Father...didn't He? (John 17) Jesus said that it was better for us that we have the presence of the Holy Spirit in us than it was for Him to be bodily with us on earth. Yet the Spirit is spoken of as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ and many other things. Why do some feel the need to define things instead of just abide in them? Jesus said we have to will to do whatsoever He said, and excuse me, but Jesus didn't say 'believe the trinity doctrine or go to hell', but rather, 'Ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

This sounds like a non question to me. What's the point?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for those who are His and to be our High Priest, the Spirit is our Comforter and surity of God's ownership and presence. Jesus also said whereever two or more are gathered in His name that He is there with them. Seems that would be in Spirit.

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?

The revelation of Jesus Christ shows Him quite different than on the cross; more like what He was at the transfiguration event/vision.

5) Is holding to the historic creeds…

Can any historic creed compare to the pure teachings of Jesus? None that I've seen:-)

a. essential for salvation

b. good for spiritual health but not an absolute requirement

c. not important

d. other…Please specify

"D" Jesus said we will be judged by His words, the very doctrine of God He taught, as well as the truth of God taught in the Holy Scriptures. Jesus said these things were both imperrishable, so they need not restoration, but to know what has been revealed and forgotten - but certainly not 'lost' to need to be 'restored'.

One Disciple to Another

[brother01]

For an exercise in scholarship, study the scriptures and write your own creed. Then you can compare with the historic creeds and see where they differ.

I think that mentally, we all have a creed in mind of our own making. Might as well put it on paper.

My creed?

Observe everything that Jesus taught. If He is my Lord I will to do whatsoever He said and grow in my knowledge and faithfulness to those things.

[Guest ceeboo]

My creed?

Observe everything that Jesus taught. If He is my Lord I will to do whatsoever He said and grow in my knowledge and faithfulness to those things.

Hello brother,

Can I suggest a conversion to Catholic :):)

Peace,

Carl

[brother01]

Do you have a thread to recommend?

[abqfriend]

I do not think Internet conversion would work.

I would ask that you contact a priest of your nearest Catholic Church and he can direct you further.

Thank You for your interest in the Catholic faith.

-Carol

Do you have a thread to recommend?

[brother01]

So why the Catholic comment? I've been to an RCC and had several deep conversations with them over the years. I respect the knowledge of some basics of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, but there are some big issues with RCC history and even bigger issues with doctrines that have been added that are not the doctrine Jesus gave from the Father such as their veneration of Mary, and switching certain things out from paganism and calling them Christian. Jesus wrote to the Church at Pergamos as a compromising Church and spoke about their idolatry and immorality. Most things in the Revelation of Jesus Christ are signified and I take that in such a way that those who add to or take away from what God has declared to be both immoral and practicing idolatry. Their having some statues is a minor issue in comparison to having slurred the very doctrine of Jesus Christ that God gave Him charge to speak and preach and reveal. So how many Churches are guilty of not repenting and turning to God with their whole heart and seeking to observe whatsoever Jesus taught during the first century?

Just an added bonus thought, but do we really have the concept of prophecy that the Jewish mind of the old times had? Their concept was that it not only had to be true and according to what God had already given, but that it also had to fit the patterns given... like Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice to God and Jesus on the cross or the ancient betrothal period and marriage feast to the Church being the bride of Christ that He will return suddenly for and she is to be ready for His coming.. The patterns abound, and these are but two. You might want to see if the added revelations of LDS fit the patterns given by God.

[abqfriend]

I -Carol- was only responding to your request for information on the Catholic faith and nothing more.

-Carol

So why the Catholic comment? I've been to an RCC and had several deep conversations with them over the years. I respect the knowledge of some basics of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, but there are some big issues with RCC history and even bigger issues with doctrines that have been added that are not the doctrine Jesus gave from the Father such as their veneration of Mary, and switching certain things out from paganism and calling them Christian. Jesus wrote to the Church at Pergamos as a compromising Church and spoke about their idolatry and immorality. Most things in the Revelation of Jesus Christ are signified and I take that in such a way that those who add to or take away from what God has declared to be both immoral and practicing idolatry. Their having some statues is a minor issue in comparison to having slurred the very doctrine of Jesus Christ that God gave Him charge to speak and preach and reveal. So how many Churches are guilty of not repenting and turning to God with their whole heart and seeking to observe whatsoever Jesus taught during the first century?

Just an added bonus thought, but do we really have the concept of prophecy that the Jewish mind of the old times had? Their concept was that it not only had to be true and according to what God had already given, but that it also had to fit the patterns given... like Abraham and Isaac and the sacrifice to God and Jesus on the cross or the ancient betrothal period and marriage feast to the Church being the bride of Christ that He will return suddenly for and she is to be ready for His coming.. The patterns abound, and these are but two. You might want to see if the added revelations of LDS fit the patterns given by God.

[brother01]

Thanks, but from my comments there was no intent for asking about what Catholics believe. I thought the other poster had a specific link to a discussion for someone by the 'name' of 'catholic' to converse with here on the trinity topic:-)

Two things I marvel at:

1. How Orthodox complain about LDS and the Trinity doctrine, but not Church of Christ.

2. How LDS even entertain that God is not the only God who ever was, is and will ever be - the source of all that is, both seen and unseen. (not just of this world or solar system or galaxy or universe) There are perhaps millions and billions of angels (els), but only one God. The angels and demons both witness this is true, let alone the Son of God and the holy prophets of God.

[Maureen]

1) Are the persons of the Trinity capable of expressing emotion to each other? (ie can they love each other)

What does the trinity doctrine have to do with being a disciple of Jesus or faithful to Him or obedience to what He commanded? If God is One, why do some try to take a spiritual scalpel and dissect God somehow?...

2) Are they capable of communicating with each other?

This sounds like a non question to me. What's the point?

3) Can they be in differing spatial locations? (ie differing places, the Father was not crucified with the Son)

Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for those who are His and to be our High Priest, the Spirit is our Comforter and surity of God's ownership and presence. Jesus also said whereever two or more are gathered in His name that He is there with them. Seems that would be in Spirit.

4) Will Jesus maintain his resurrected body in heaven?

The revelation of Jesus Christ shows Him quite different than on the cross; more like what He was at the transfiguration event/vision.

5) Is holding to the historic creeds…

Can any historic creed compare to the pure teachings of Jesus? None that I've seen:-)

a. essential for salvation

b. good for spiritual health but not an absolute requirement

c. not important

d. other…Please specify

"D" Jesus said we will be judged by His words, the very doctrine of God He taught, as well as the truth of God taught in the Holy Scriptures. Jesus said these things were both imperrishable, so they need not restoration, but to know what has been revealed and forgotten - but certainly not 'lost' to need to be 'restored'.

One Disciple to Another

brother01,

Are you questioning the reason for this thread? Anthony, the creator of the thread said:

Miss Halfway,

...I was however to attempting to ascertain how many social trinitarians there are amongst traditional christians, and the questions are aimed to discover that.

M.

[Flyonthewall]

Trinity: The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Each is a distinct person, yet they are the one true and living God. Only Jesus has a body, so he's the only one we could look upon as being human-looking.

The main difference is that LDS teaching is essentially that there are three entirely separate god-beings in the Godhead. Trinitarians believe there are three persons, but only one God. God does not split himself, or appear in different forms. That teachings is called modalism, and is also considered a heresy, by Trinitarians.

PC,

I hope you can help my misunderstanding on this issue. This is a big blind spot for me about the Trinity(not the only blind spot, but the biggest).

As you stated, in the Trinity, there are three persons but only one God. From my point of view, if all three persons are individually God, then there are three Gods. However, time and time again, Trinitarians say no that's not right.

Then in my mind, the Trinitarian God is not a specific person, but the container, called "essence" or "nature" that these persons reside in. The individuals themselves are called God, but only because of the container.

I am sure I am missing some peice of the equation, or maybe because of my LDS upbringing, my mind isn't wired in a compatible way for understanding this, but I really would like to understand this.

Hopefully, your presence here, may give you an understanding of LDS thinking that can help make this easier to understand.

[brother01]

brother01,

Are you questioning the reason for this thread? Anthony, the creator of the thread said:

M.

Guess I'm not a social trinitarian:-)

The way it seems to me is that we are made up of body, mind and spirit, but I'm just one person. So why can't God be made up of Father, Word and Spirit, as One God, yet the aspects of each are of the One and are One even though one part may abide in an area or demension beyond where the central Father resides.

[prisonchaplain]

PC,

I hope you can help my misunderstanding on this issue. This is a big blind spot for me about the Trinity(not the only blind spot, but the biggest).

As you stated, in the Trinity, there are three persons but only one God. From my point of view, if all three persons are individually God, then there are three Gods. However, time and time again, Trinitarians say no that's not right.

Each of the three persons is God, and there is only one God, because they are one in essence. There cannot be three gods, because we join Jews and Muslims in taking Dueteronomy 6:4 quite literally--Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Not one for us, or for our world, but ONE.

Then in my mind, the Trinitarian God is not a specific person, but the container, called "essence" or "nature" that these persons reside in. The individuals themselves are called God, but only because of the container.

I am sure I am missing some peice of the equation, or maybe because of my LDS upbringing, my mind isn't wired in a compatible way for understanding this, but I really would like to understand this.

Hopefully, your presence here, may give you an understanding of LDS thinking that can help make this easier to understand.

I'm not sure if you are missing something so much as adding too much. "How can God be one and yet three distinct persons?" That is your basic question. Your prophet gave you an answer: the unity is one of purpose only.

We trinitarians say, "No...God is one essential being." So, how can that be--three persons, one being? It just is. Perhaps Joseph Smith's answer is more satisfying, because it's easier to wrap the mind around. However, trinitarians believe ourselves to be absolute monotheists. So . . . we simply accept what we see in Scripture, and leave the "how it works" to God. After all, it's his nature.

[Maureen]

Guess I'm not a social trinitarian:-)

The way it seems to me is that we are made up of body, mind and spirit, but I'm just one person. So why can't God be made up of Father, Word and Spirit, as One God, yet the aspects of each are of the One and are One even though one part may abide in an area or demension beyond where the central Father resides.

Yes we as humans are also a tri-unity of body, mind and spirit; one way of seeing us created in the image of a tri-unity God. The only thing we can't do is separate God into parts because God is one and cannot be divided into parts. Each person of the Godhead is individually and collectively God.

M.

[AnthonyB]

brother1,

Thanks for your contribution. The questions were aimed to discover how many of traditional Christians (ie non-LDS mainstream Christians, everything in my book from Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, nondenom, SDA) were socail trinitarians. They might seem trivial to you but I had just asked who is a socail trinitarians I think few would have known what I meant.

The question came from another thread were one of the more learned LDS poster's suggested that socail trinitarians were fairly close to the LDS concept of the Godhead but that social trinitarians are a small minority in the Christian population. I disagreed since although I had not until recently heard of the term, the concept would fit closely with how I think the vast majority of Christians (including myself) think.

I notice form your profile your LDS, your views however appear somewhat different from most other LDS posters here. You statements sound almost trinitarian. Would you agree with One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, they are one but but each also God? Many LDS seem IMHO to want to use logic to trump scripture (and even the BoM) and declare there must 3 Gods since all three of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are given distinct personal attributes in scripture.

As for the Church of Christ, I could ask which Church of Christ, there are several very diverse groups which lay claim to that name. However I will presume that you meant the church of Christ, that came out of the Restoration Movement. I know little about the US church, I'm from Australia but depite our common anti-creedal heritage and wish to avoid non-biblical terms, certainly in Australia we are by and large nearly univerally trinitarian in expression. The bible says one God, and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, I'm happy to leave it at that but if I wish to talk to others I have got to IMHO try to understand what they mean and use phrases that make sure were really communicating about the same concepts.

[Flyonthewall]

Each of the three persons is God, and there is only one God, because they are one in essence. There cannot be three gods, because we join Jews and Muslims in taking Dueteronomy 6:4 quite literally--Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Not one for us, or for our world, but ONE.

I'm not sure if you are missing something so much as adding too much. "How can God be one and yet three distinct persons?" That is your basic question. Your prophet gave you an answer: the unity is one of purpose only.

We trinitarians say, "No...God is one essential being." So, how can that be--three persons, one being? It just is. Perhaps Joseph Smith's answer is more satisfying, because it's easier to wrap the mind around. However, trinitarians believe ourselves to be absolute monotheists. So . . . we simply accept what we see in Scripture, and leave the "how it works" to God. After all, it's his nature.

When I first read about the Trinity, I had thought that the Trinity and Godhead concepts were very close, if not essentially the same thing. If essence or nature equivocates to purpose, function, testimony, etc. then it is the same concept.

P.S. I tried to thank you for replying, but got a note that my account doesn't have that access or that it has been de-activated. THANKS for your response!

[a-train]

I have decided that Mormons and Trinitarians believe the very same theological model of the Godhead with a single distinction: The existance of distinct and seperate corporeal tabernacles for the Father and the Son respectively; a notion acknowledged by Mormons and disbelieved by non-Mormons. All other differences are purely semantic.

-a-train