Scripture question?

[butongrl]

Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

How are we to take this scripture nowadays? I mean there's many people out there today that will take advantage of kindness and use you? Where do we draw the line?

I ask this because my husband's two brothers are in a situation where they are basically homeless, no jobs which means no money. Anyways my husband has helped them out by in the past letting them stay here and giving them a little money when we can but he's backed off because it's like they are just takers. You give a little and they just keep pushing to see what else they can get. Long story short. So how far do you take this scripture? I mean I really wanna do the right thing but I don't think it is saying to let people walk all over you or take advantage of your charity.

And also if someone refuses to help themselves, are we responsible to just keep on giving even though they won't change? The church is so big on self reliance but how do you reconcile that with this scripture? It almost seems like it is saying just give and give and give no matter what? Thoughts.

[Nibowaka]

There are many here wiser than I. Having acknowledged that, let me give you my poor thoughts:

As I understand the Church policy on helping the poor within the Church, first the supplicant seeks help from his family. Secondly, he seeks assistance, legally, through public and governmental services, e.g., welfare or employment services. Thirdly, he seeks blessings from the Bishop, e.g., the Bishop's storehouse or Deseret Industries.

We often help best when we help the poor get back on their own two feet, as best they can. Each person has a responsibility, as best he or she can, to work and provide for their own needs. I believe the old adage of "Give a man a fish....." applies.

[Justice]

It sounds like you understand the scripture just fine.

The best advice anyone can give is to seek the spirit's help when considering whether or not to keep helping someone who seems like they aren't helping themself. At times, the Lord will even stop helping people for a greater purpose... repentance.

[Traveler]

Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

How are we to take this scripture nowadays? I mean there's many people out there today that will take advantage of kindness and use you? Where do we draw the line?

I ask this because my husband's two brothers are in a situation where they are basically homeless, no jobs which means no money. Anyways my husband has helped them out by in the past letting them stay here and giving them a little money when we can but he's backed off because it's like they are just takers. You give a little and they just keep pushing to see what else they can get. Long story short. So how far do you take this scripture? I mean I really wanna do the right thing but I don't think it is saying to let people walk all over you or take advantage of your charity.

And also if someone refuses to help themselves, are we responsible to just keep on giving even though they won't change? The church is so big on self reliance but how do you reconcile that with this scripture? It almost seems like it is saying just give and give and give no matter what? Thoughts.

I believe you can still help. When I was a boy living with my parents often I would ask my father for some money to meet my needs. His response was always - if you need money I have a job for you - when you complete the work I will pay you. From the time I was 8 I purchased all my own cloths and school supplies. When the family went of vacation I was expected to pay my own way. I would also point out that my father was a very wealthy man.

Many times friends and neighbors would come to him for help - he always offered them work in exchange for the money they needed.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

I think you should help your brothers as much as you can.

Note that when I say 'Help', I don't mean 'Give them a place to stay and money'. Doing that acts as an enabler, letting them rely on you rather than developing their own talents(In fact, I was warned against being an enabler myself once. In my patriarchal blessing, no less). What you should do is help them identify why they don't have a job and a place to stay and help them overcome those difficulties. Or at least recognize that they have them.

[Misshalfway]

I don't think it is a question of whether or not we should help people. I think the question is how. Sympathy sometimes weakens people. If we do for others what they can do for themselves, we do them a disservice. We must be wise in our giving. Sometimes pointing others to their own strengths and encouraging them is the best gift we can give.

I am reminded also of Jean Val Jean in my most favorite novel, Les Miserables. He comes to the bishops home late. He is an escaped convict and full of anger and darkness. The bishop gives him a bed and a meal. And Val Jean steals his silver. When he was brought back to the Bishop by the prison guards, he is met with great mercy as the bishop chastises him for not taking the candlesticks too. And then explains to Val Jean that he has just bought his soul for God.

What a lesson in mercy and grace and love. It was that single act of kindness and invitation and facilitation of freedom that truly propelled this convict to change his life. The bishop passed away and never saw that beautiful man that Jean Val Jean became. But he gave anyway.

The giving of love in all of its forms changes people and lifts them. I am one who has needed lifting too. Aren't we all? We must give, even when the person on the other end of the giving takes the silver.

[Guest tomk]

Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.

19 For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?

20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

21 And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another.

How are we to take this scripture nowadays? I mean there's many people out there today that will take advantage of kindness and use you? Where do we draw the line?

I ask this because my husband's two brothers are in a situation where they are basically homeless, no jobs which means no money. Anyways my husband has helped them out by in the past letting them stay here and giving them a little money when we can but he's backed off because it's like they are just takers. You give a little and they just keep pushing to see what else they can get. Long story short. So how far do you take this scripture? I mean I really wanna do the right thing but I don't think it is saying to let people walk all over you or take advantage of your charity.

And also if someone refuses to help themselves, are we responsible to just keep on giving even though they won't change? The church is so big on self reliance but how do you reconcile that with this scripture? It almost seems like it is saying just give and give and give no matter what? Thoughts.

I think this really has to do with your own heart. It is all about involving the Lord in the situation, instead of taking it upon yourself to judge the "worthiness" of the recipient for yourself.

I don't think the Lord (necessarily) expects you and your children to go without food and the basic needs of life in order to help your family, for you have a responsibility to them as well. All things must be done in wisdom. If you have the money to give -- then give it. Counsel with the Lord about it. Follow the feelings He gives you. You will know when it is not appropriate to give them anything anymore.

I agree...the Lord will sometimes withhold from us in order to help us focus on Him. It is not a punishment, but a loving opportunity to repent and turn to Him. The blessings that come from this turning to God can be marvelous. The choice is ours how to respond to the situation.

[Moksha]

Mosiah 4

16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

I think there are those who would label this as liberal thinking and thus cut off any further consideration of it.

[a-train]

Did you read verse 27?

And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

-a-train

[NeuroTypical]

I'm happy to give panhandlers food. Whenever I've offered, they have turned me down every single time except once.

These scriptures got much easier to understand, once it dawned on me that giving panhandlers money is the exact opposite of helping them. It's hurting them because it allows them to remain in the vicelike grip of whatever addiction is forcing them to beg.

LM