Word of Wisdom and Vegetarianism

[bodhigirlsmiles]

"Vegetarian" is an old indian word for "bad hunter"...

And I wasn't put at the top of the food chain to graze at the salad bar....

And if God wanted man to eat fish, He would have put hooves on them.....

And I believed all of that right up until the end of May of this year. Then I had my gastric bypass and learned that my body (as opposed to my mind, which is still carnivorous) doesn't really care much any more for meat except the occasional shrimp or (oddly enough) piece of bacon.

Still, when I weigh the Sunday pot roast against the 140 pounds I've lost so far, I can get by without the meat.

But.....(sigh)

i am sorry to hear about your surgery, but i am happy that you are feeling better. vegetarianism is all i have ever known, so i cannot claim (in all honesty) to understand how you feel to have a carnivorous brain.

the very best of luck to you, however!

[bodhigirlsmiles]

Hi! I am LDS and personally I don't eat meat every day. Usually 1 to 2 times a week. (Sunday dinner and Friday take away) This is more my personal choice though. It does say that we should eat meat SPARINGLY, and I feel it's a little wasteful to eat animals every day as well as unescary (i am also a big animal lover and that too most probably influences this disesicion of mine). Most LDS friends I know limit their meat intake also.

Your second question made me smile. In the quieter villages of china for example (I remember a story some one told me tho I can't remember the exact geographical location) but their diet is very simple. There is no tabacco, drugs or alchohol. They eat a very simple diet, fish, rice, basic vegetables. Without really knowing it they are living the word of wisdom. These people are living into their late 90 and event he 100s! I feel this is proof that when we keep the word of wisdom, we will be very healthy indeed.

It's a bit like a promise from our Father in Heaven. :) Keep the word of wisdom and live a long healthy life! :)

very thoughtful answer....thank you!

[georgia2]

Mormons aren't vegetarians but many vegetarians are Mormon.

Whether meat is consumed in winter or summer, it should be eaten sparingly. When this was given, science had no clue about cholesterol, parasites in meat, high fat, so forth. So this advice was given in a time that only God could have known this. This is one of those things that proves Joseph Smith was a prophet.

[Guest DeborahC]

Loudmouth, if the scriptures are "authorized" then I take that to mean the current Prophet has ok'd them... and that the comma which changes the meaning was put there for a reason.

Is that not correct?

[KristofferUmfrey]

good morning! i have a question for anyone who cares to answer. i received a copy of the word of wisdom from a friend, and i find it to be a very beautiful document! many of the items mentioned within the body of the text are things i follow every day as a buddhist. i took a vow many years ago to refrain from intoxicating substances, and i believe, if i am reading the word of wisdom correctly, this is prohibited for lds people as well. i have a question about a certain portion of the word of wisdom....

and again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.

yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

all grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

all grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

and all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

my first question is this....are lds people vegetarians or vegans? i had never heard this, but i was curious. as a strict buddhist, i do not eat animal flesh of any kind (including oceanic life).

my second question is....where it says, "health in their navel and marrow to their bones," what does this mean? sorry if that is a stupid question!

LDS Vegetarians.... That's almost an oxy-moron. Except for the brave few who take the WofW very at it's word Mormons are very carnivorous.

[Starfish]

Apparently in the 1800's a typical (or prefered) diet included a lot of meat. So eating it "sparingly" may be relative.

Doctrine and Covenants 49:

18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.

20 But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.

21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.

[Guest DeborahC]

I agree Starfish.

Also, I've done a bit of research on diets b/c of my condition and found that many people who eat strictly vegetarian or vegan diets are fine for years, but have serious heart conditions from lack of B vitamins in later years. These come on suddenly.

So I'm not taking any chances.

I eat meat.

But I"m really afraid of what is IN the meat, currently and how it's produced.

When you eat meat off the grocery shelves, you're eating a lot of pain and misery.

It just can't be healthy.

We didn't raise our animals like that when I was a kid.

We took very good care of them and they were very healthy.

Anyway.. I agree meat is important in the diet, though I know many disagree.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I agree Starfish.

Also, I've done a bit of research on diets b/c of my condition and found that many people who eat strictly vegetarian or vegan diets are fine for years, but have serious heart conditions from lack of B vitamins in later years. These come on suddenly.

So I'm not taking any chances.

I eat meat.

But I"m really afraid of what is IN the meat, currently and how it's produced.

When you eat meat off the grocery shelves, you're eating a lot of pain and misery.

It just can't be healthy.We didn't raise our animals like that when I was a kid.

We took very good care of them and they were very healthy.

Anyway.. I agree meat is important in the diet, though I know many disagree.

well said!....spoken like a true buddhist in all seriousness, however, i agree that it is certainly common practice today for people to treat animals in very egregious ways.

as for vegetarians or vegans suddenly becoming ill in later life....this may be true, but my family have been vegetarians for generations and have suffered no ill effects from this. this could be in part because their bodies, over time, have become accustomed to this diet and have compensated for a lack of certain vitamins (similar to the way that the inuit eat meat almost exclusively with little or no vegetation and they are enormously healthy)....or it could be that we have suffered all along and never knew it!?! either way, i would never participate in something that i find so profoundly wrong. i certainly hold no ill will toward those who chose to do so, however. thank you for your post!

[NeuroTypical]

Loudmouth, if the scriptures are "authorized" then I take that to mean the current Prophet has ok'd them... and that the comma which changes the meaning was put there for a reason.

Is that not correct?

I would vote no, due to human falibility.

There are tons and tons of minor changes that have crept in to the BoM since Joseph started translation. The original manuscript doesn't totally match the printer's manuscript, which doesn't totally match the typeset version, which doesn't totally match subsequent versions, which don't totally match each other. We try as hard as we can, but plain 'ol human error still takes it's toll.

It seems like this wayward comma would be one of these errors, since no prophet or church authority is on record of saying anything about the change, and since no prophet or church authority is on record of claiming we must only eat meat in times of winter, cold, or famine.

Interesting articles:

FAIR Wiki: Book of Mormon textual changes

Answers from Royal Skousen - Changes in the Book of Mormon

LM

[Starfish]

D&C 89 seems clear enough: meat "should not be used, only in times of winter/cold/famine".

So, going directly to LDS.com and looking up the chapter, here's what you'll see:

Note the comma after the phrase "should not be used".

Compare that with a copy of the same section, out of an original 1835 Book of Commandments:

Note the absence of a comma after the phrase "should not be used". It seems to have changed places, and now appears right after "it is pleasing unto me". This changes the sentence structure, and changes the meaning of the sentence.

The original text reads 'They should not be used only in times of winter/cold/famine'. In other words, anyone telling you meat is only for winter/cold/famine isn't telling you what the Lord thinks.

Compare to D&C 49:18-19 "And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance."

See, back in Joseph Smith's day, there was indeed a sort of 'religious diet fad' of the day, advocating limiting or eliminating meats from our diet. D&C 49 explicitly counters this idea. The original Book of Commandments Word of Wisdom section explicitly counters this idea. Somewhere, as we fallible humans added verse structure and tried to publish new editions, a comma crept in, and made it harder to understand.

This line of reasoning sort of springs from me here. I haven't heard anyone else mention this comma - certainly I've not heard any church leader mention it. So take my post for what it's worth - the opinion of some random Loudmouth Mormon. If anyone has information to the contrary, I'm certainly willing to change my tune.

(Unfortunately for us all-you-can-eat buffet lovers, the word "sparingly" seems consistent, unambiguous, clear, and unchanged.)

LM

This is really interesting and I should have read it carefully before posting, so as to not be repetative. Thanks Loudmouth.

I don't get all worked up over it. I eat meat, but not a lot. Health experts today support limited meat in our diet (especially red meat). Anyway, I think this counsel was put out there for us to use our own intelligence to govern ourselves.

[Elgama]

I would suggest we seek diligently what the brethren have said then and now about the WoW before we state it is a "suggestion", or that it is "personal decision."

It is a commandment and a requirement in order to excessive one's full stewardship and privileges within the church.

"The Word of Wisdom put restrictions on members of the Church. To this day those regulations apply to every member and to everyone who seeks to join the Church. They are so compelling that no one is to be baptized into the Church without first agreeing to live by them. No one will be called to teach or to lead unless they accept them. When you want to go to the temple, you will be asked if you keep the Word of Wisdom. If you do not, you cannot go to the house of the Lord until you are fully worthy."

Ensign » 1996 » May

"The Word of Wisdom: The Principle and the Promises"

President Boyd K. Pacer

Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

When did you get asked in a temple recommend interview how much meat you eat or how many cakes you eat? Section 89 is not a commandment - the Word of Wisdom in the case of the Baptism and Temple interview pertains to the basic 5 as I have been told be several Bishop's and Stake President's - that many representatives of the Lord are not going to be wrong on the matter, For example I would include early to bed, early to rise as an important part of the Health Code and Word of Wisdom - most LDS do but its is in section 88.

Section 89 is often a work in progress for many church members - at the end of the Temple recommend interview you are asked are you Worthy its upto you to decide have you done enough outside of the basic requirements to feel worthy when you approach the temple,

-Charley

[applepansy]

"yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly";

LDS people are not Vegetarians or Vegans except by choice. The Word of Wisdom as quoted above states that meat is ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving . . .and should be used sparingly.

applepansy

[KristofferUmfrey]

This is really interesting and I should have read it carefully before posting, so as to not be repetative. Thanks Loudmouth.

I don't get all worked up over it. I eat meat, but not a lot. Health experts today support limited meat in our diet (especially red meat). Anyway, I think this counsel was put out there for us to use our own intelligence to govern ourselves.

So now all of a sudden you are using older sources when it fits your arguments. I LOVE it. Apparently you missed reading your "Teaching: No Greater Calling" manual where it instructs you to use the most current edition of the scriptures. Are you saying your leaders are not inspired when placing the comma where it is now?

I suppose you are going to start using the Journal of Discourses now that you have discovered how wonderful the older sources are.

[georgia2]

When the Word of Wisdom was first given it was a suggestion. It was later declared a commandment. When asked in a temple recommend interview, you are asked if you keep it. I think most people think this is about the addictive stuff and not the finer tuned wording about how much or how little to consume of any one substance,\

[Elgama]

When the Word of Wisdom was first given it was a suggestion. It was later declared a commandment. When asked in a temple recommend interview, you are asked if you keep it. I think most people think this is about the addictive stuff and not the finer tuned wording about how much or how little to consume of any one substance,\

thats because when I have ever asked a branch president/Bishop what the question means they have stated it relates to the addictive stuff - after that you are worthy to enter the temple, The rest is upto us to fine tune - I have yet to meet many LDS who have the diet thing nailed, constant service, every prayer and scripture reading done, every activity attended etc We have to do the basics to get to the temple after that its upto us to continue growing.

-Charley

[Heavenguard]

Alls I know is Jesus said it is what comes out of a man's mouth that makes him unclean, not what goes in to it (Matt 15), and that Peter was told none of the animals made by God are unclean to eat (Acts 1).

Granted the latter was to illustrate the point that the gospel is for the Jews and Gentiles alike, but I think the point (of food) still stands

[KristofferUmfrey]

Alls I know is Jesus said it is what comes out of a man's mouth that makes him unclean, not what goes in to it (Matt 15), and that Peter was told none of the animals made by God are unclean to eat (Acts 1).

Granted the latter was to illustrate the point that the gospel is for the Jews and Gentiles alike, but I think the point (of food) still stands

Context is SOOOO lovely... Jesus was speaking of the ritual washing of hands not of eating whatever the heck you want. Booze goes into your body, does that mean you are not defiled by it?

[MrNirom]

does that mean you are not defiled by it?

I guess one would have to define the word defiled. And what it means to be defiled... especially in the days of Christ.

To say that one was defiled by what went in the mouth... the Lord argued and said that it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.

So he felt strong enough about it to counter their worries about clean hands. Especially when they were teaching the opposite about the law which was written about honoring ones father and mother.

What amazes me is that your own additions to the Article of Faith states:

We have chosen to abstain from foods forbidden by the Lord since the beginning of creation and feel it is best to partake of meat only in times of winter and famine, but each man must judge for himself and his family.

Edited October 31, 2008 by MrNirom
Updating info

[KristofferUmfrey]

I guess one would have to define the word defiled. And what it means to be defiled... especially in the days of Christ.

To say that one was defiled by what went in the mouth... the Lord argued and said that it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man.

So he felt strong enough about it to counter their worries about clean hands. Especially when they were teaching the opposite about the law which was written about honoring ones father and mother.

What amazes me is that your own additions to the Article of Faith states:

We have chosen to abstain from foods forbidden by the Lord since the beginning of creation and feel it is best to partake of meat only in times of winter and famine, but each man must judge for himself and his family.

What's so amazing about that?

Could not the Word of Wisdom be considered a subtext of the Articles of Faith in your church?

[MrNirom]

What's so amazing about that?

Could not the Word of Wisdom be considered a subtext of the Articles of Faith in your church?

It's not.

[KristofferUmfrey]

It's not.

Hmm, so the WOW is NOT an important belief in your church? I'm confused.

[Hemidakota]

good morning! i have a question for anyone who cares to answer. i received a copy of the word of wisdom from a friend, and i find it to be a very beautiful document! many of the items mentioned within the body of the text are things i follow every day as a buddhist. i took a vow many years ago to refrain from intoxicating substances, and i believe, if i am reading the word of wisdom correctly, this is prohibited for lds people as well. i have a question about a certain portion of the word of wisdom....

and again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with aprudence and bthanksgiving.

yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

and it is pleasing unto me that they should not be aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

all grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

and these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

all grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

and all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

and shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

my first question is this....are lds people vegetarians or vegans? i had never heard this, but i was curious. as a strict buddhist, i do not eat animal flesh of any kind (including oceanic life).

my second question is....where it says, "health in their navel and marrow to their bones," what does this mean? sorry if that is a stupid question!

What is the purpose of being a Vegetarianism? Just curious...

[Hemidakota]

Hmm, so the WOW is NOT an important belief in your church? I'm confused.

You need research why did Joseph receive this revelation and the importacy for members to seek out their own answers via the Spirit, in living that standard of life.

[bytor2112]

:lol:Isn't that the truth!! My family does not "toast" bread, they fry it!!!

Fried cornbread.....mmmm!! Yep, fried okra, fried tomatos, fried pickles.......even fried macoroni and cheese.

[Hemidakota]

Acid reflect? LOL