abortion=death=wrong, war=death=wrong??

[bodhigirlsmiles]

i am just curious, for those of you who hold a very strong opposition to abortion, what do you think is the difference between killing an unborn child and killing a human being period? i cannot see the distinction. i value ALL human life, whether unborn or not and cannot imagine a time where it is morally ok to take that away from someone. i am not trying to be argumentative, i am genuinly curious....thank you!

[skalenfehl]

The later chapters of Alma and also Helaman will provide great insight into why sometimes war is necessary. The primary reason to justify war is to defend one's inalienable God given right to be free. Before we came to this earth there was a great war in heaven where Satan persuaded a third of the hosts of heaven to give up their freedom and thus lost their spiritual lives.

Physical death is nothing to fear. Spiritual death (separation from us and our Father in heaven) is what we should fear and the prophets and soldiers in the Book of Mormon understood this. Captain Moroni certainly did. The scriptures (BoM and Bible) are replete with examples of this and the fact that God supported and strengthened those who defended their freedom, especially to worship Him and continue His work to save souls.

God will always uphold the nations that believe in Him and fight for the cause of liberty and to worship Him according to our conscience. Hence the old saying in the currency of the US: "In God we trust."

[Fiannan]

"Thou sahalt not kill" has been interpreted by Jewish, Islamic and Christian scholars alike to mean that you will not murder the innocent. I cannot remember the talk I heard way back in the late 1970s but in times of war we are supposed to try to subdue our opponents if we have the chance rather than kill them. So does that mean those in Britain who ordered the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany in World War 2 are guilty of murder and will be accountable? In my opinion yes.

Yet if you are a soldier on a battlefield and you know that if you don't shoot the guy approaching you with a gun you will be killed are you guilty of murder if you kill him? No you aren't.

A baby in the womb, where there is a healthy pregnancy should be allowed to live. Killing it is taking innocent blood and that is wrong. God will probably punish the nations who allow this sort of thing quite severely if He still has the characteristics whown in the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

As for executing a murderer we find in Alma as well as much of the Bible that the death penalty is justified for murderers. All the talk of cost, revenge or other factors brought up by opponents of the death penalty are immaterial.

[pam]

Mark this day down in history. I just gave Fiannan a thanks.

[pam]

The ONLY time I see abortion as (for no other better word I can think of right now) okay...is in the case of incest or rape, extreme health risk to the mother or to the fetus itself.

[Maya]

It is better for one man to die than the whole nation to ....

There are situations when killing someone is justified. Or at least sending somewhere where there is no return....

Abortion is wrong as it takes away a persons possibilities before they even begin. We do not know when the life begins , but I believe it begins when the two cells meet. If it can be shown that the embyro is not alive untill x months before birth, then ok before that.

War... who is right? Kommunists believe they free people and so does USA army. And no one wants to leave their home!

[a-train]

Both the communists and the imperialist captialists ignore the natural human rights of the individual and their so-called liberating amounts to slavery and the usurpation of power. If the people of a given location wish to support a certain form of government, our efforts to intervene are the manifestation of our own pride and disregard for their rights.

If indeed there are those who are subjected to the evils of tyranny, our efforts are to proclaim liberty and trust in the power of the people while defending ourselves. The idea of going into military conflict under nothing but the assumption that we will be received as saviors has proven itself foolishness. We cannot liberate the captives of a false doctrine whose prison is of the mind with the external forces of physical violence.

As Paul said, we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

-a-train

[NeuroTypical]

what do you think is the difference between killing an unborn child and killing a human being period?

As others have said, whether killing is justifiable or not depends on the innocence of the person being killed, and the justification of the person doing the killing.

i cannot see the distinction.

Well, I don't really want to be argumentative either, but are you absolutely sure you can't tell the difference between killing an innocent child, and killing an armed intruder who is out to kill your family?

i value ALL human life, whether unborn or not

Me too. I really grabbed on to the training the National Rifle Association provided me - the best way to win an encounter against a bad guy is to avoid the encounter to begin with. Escape, evade, avoid. If that doesn't work, deter. If that doesn't work, and it's truly either me or him, it's going to be me. Because after all, it would be kind of contradictory to claim I value all life, and then hand my own life over to a bad guy who wants to take it away.

Make sense?

LM

[ZionWoman]

The idea of the greater good has been hinted at in some of the replies. That idea of the greater good being that there is a law and then there is a higher law. An example being the Mosaic law followed by the Jews given to Moses and the higher law that Jesus brought during his ministry and sacrifice. In mosaic law, a blood sacrifice was required as a similitude of the Saviors sacrifice. When Jesus died for our sins, that was done away and the higher law was followed in which our offering is a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Following this idea, we can see the certain instances where the thing that would usually be the wrong thing is in fact the great good. An example of this happens when the spirit told Nephi to kill Laban. Also, when Moses lied to protect Sariah in Egypt.

In the instance of war, it is NOT the greater good to willfully enter into or engage in a war that is not justified. These are wars that are meant to suppress and subject people. Whether a war is justified may not always be evident to an individual at the mercy of their government. In these cases, I believe that we use our votes to make our voices heard, do our civic duty and support our country and troops and pray for guidance in our own lives and for those who lead us.

In the matter of abortion, the greater good may only be done, as was mentioned before, in extreme or life threatening circumstances.

Killing should never be taken lightly, therefore, war and abortion require much reflection and careful, even prayerful thought.

Edited November 3, 2008 by ZionWoman

[ztodd]

i am just curious, for those of you who hold a very strong opposition to abortion, what do you think is the difference between killing an unborn child and killing a human being period? i cannot see the distinction. i value ALL human life, whether unborn or not and cannot imagine a time where it is morally ok to take that away from someone. i am not trying to be argumentative, i am genuinly curious....thank you!

Even though you mentioned war in your title, your post seems to just be talking about true murder. If that is so, then I pretty much agree with you. It is the same, if the intention of the heart is the same.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi bodhigirlsmiles,

So, I'm just wondering what you think about our responses. Any reaction you'd care to share with us?

LM

[bytor2112]

I think there are some huge differences here. To kill in defense of freedom.....certainly distasteful and far better if war didn't exist....is often necessary to stop evil or protect from those who would subjugate and occupy and force dominion. Abortion.....is rarely necessary and is the willful act of diminishing the value of human life. Both are abhorrent....but one can be used to bring about a righteous cause....the other cannot.

" What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world."- Robert E. Lee

[Bookmeister]

I suppose I think of it this way...the difference is that the child doesn't have a chance to shoot back.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

"Thou sahalt not kill" has been interpreted by Jewish, Islamic and Christian scholars alike to mean that you will not murder the innocent. I cannot remember the talk I heard way back in the late 1970s but in times of war we are supposed to try to subdue our opponents if we have the chance rather than kill them. So does that mean those in Britain who ordered the fire bombing of Dresden, Germany in World War 2 are guilty of murder and will be accountable? In my opinion yes.

Yet if you are a soldier on a battlefield and you know that if you don't shoot the guy approaching you with a gun you will be killed are you guilty of murder if you kill him? No you aren't.

A baby in the womb, where there is a healthy pregnancy should be allowed to live. Killing it is taking innocent blood and that is wrong. God will probably punish the nations who allow this sort of thing quite severely if He still has the characteristics whown in the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

As for executing a murderer we find in Alma as well as much of the Bible that the death penalty is justified for murderers. All the talk of cost, revenge or other factors brought up by opponents of the death penalty are immaterial.

but why???? this is what i do not understand. please do not mistake me, i have no intention of disrespecting you or your religious beliefs, but i do not understand how a god would justify the taking of another's life. i really wish to know your opinion. in the case of war or criminal activity, it seems to me that there are other ways in which we can handle such cases....prison, for one.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

The ONLY time I see abortion as (for no other better word I can think of right now) okay...is in the case of incest or rape, extreme health risk to the mother or to the fetus itself.

please help me understand this as well. one of the reasons that i have always so greatly respected and admired my mormon friends is their stance on abortion. i do not understand how it is the fault of the baby if they were concieved as a result of rape or incest. to be true, these acts are terrible and the cost to all involved is heartbreaking, but it cannot be said to be the fault of the unborn child. please help me to understand this from your point of view....thank you!

[bodhigirlsmiles]

It is better for one man to die than the whole nation to ....

There are situations when killing someone is justified. Or at least sending somewhere where there is no return....

how so? again i do not mean to challenge or belittle anyone's beliefs, i truly wish to understand this from an LDS perspective. why is killing ever ok? are there not other ways in which we can accomplish the same thing? terrorism is so scary and the acts that were committed on 9/11 were so unbelieveably tragic, and yet, i cannot help but think that there are other ways to deal with such things other than murder. have the terrorists not shed enough blood? must we shed more? what of prison or other things?

Abortion is wrong as it takes away a persons possibilities before they even begin. We do not know when the life begins , but I believe it begins when the two cells meet. If it can be shown that the embyro is not alive untill x months before birth, then ok before that.

i agree with you. thank you for sharing.

War... who is right? Kommunists believe they free people and so does USA army. And no one wants to leave their home!

thank you. this is why i think we, as a society, must take the moral stand and say we will not fight death with death. to do so is to stay at their level.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

Both the communists and the imperialist captialists ignore the natural human rights of the individual and their so-called liberating amounts to slavery and the usurpation of power. If the people of a given location wish to support a certain form of government, our efforts to intervene are the manifestation of our own pride and disregard for their rights.

If indeed there are those who are subjected to the evils of tyranny, our efforts are to proclaim liberty and trust in the power of the people while defending ourselves. The idea of going into military conflict under nothing but the assumption that we will be received as saviors has proven itself foolishness. We cannot liberate the captives of a false doctrine whose prison is of the mind with the external forces of physical violence.

As Paul said, we wrestle not against flesh and blood.

-a-train

[bodhigirlsmiles]

As others have said, whether killing is justifiable or not depends on the innocence of the person being killed, and the justification of the person doing the killing.

i'm sorry, but i do not understand this. either from a buddhist perspective, or from a christian perspective (which, grantedly, i have a rudamentary understanding of), we are told that it isn't to us to judge. we cannot possibly have all the possible variables we need to make such a momentous decision as the taking of one's life.

Well, I don't really want to be argumentative either, but are you absolutely sure you can't tell the difference between killing an innocent child, and killing an armed intruder who is out to kill your family?

to me there is no difference. i cannot (while remaining honest to myself) claim to know what i would decide to do in a situation in which i have not found myself, but i can say at this time that i would not kill a person, even if they were intent on harming my family. i may to something to prevent that from happening, but outright killing would not be an option for me. say a person had a gun (which i do not) and another person entered their home with the intent to do harm, that person could be rendered incompacitated by being shot in the leg or the arm or anything....i do not see how taking their life would be a viable option. again, this is certainly in my opinon. perhaps i am crazy because i am such a humanist and i absolutely value and respect human life too much!!??

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I think there are some huge differences here. To kill in defense of freedom.....certainly distasteful and far better if war didn't exist....is often necessary to stop evil or protect from those who would subjugate and occupy and force dominion. Abortion.....is rarely necessary and is the willful act of diminishing the value of human life. Both are abhorrent....but one can be used to bring about a righteous cause....the other cannot.

" What a cruel thing is war: to separate and destroy families and friends, and mar the purest joys and happiness God has granted us in this world; to fill our hearts with hatred instead of love for our neighbors, and to devastate the fair face of this beautiful world."- Robert E. Lee

how so? why more killing and not an alternative? in the case of war, what of prisons?? in the case of "rarely necessary" abortion, why not adoption? the unborn children who were conceived as a result of rape or incest....are they not innocent of such beginnings? would there not be someone on this earth who would not be willing to love and care for such a child?

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I suppose I think of it this way...the difference is that the child doesn't have a chance to shoot back.

i have to say....your posts always bring a smile to my face, even if i rarely agree with their content! :)

[bytor2112]

how so? why more killing and not an alternative? in the case of war, what of prisons?? in the case of "rarely necessary" abortion, why not adoption? the unborn children who were conceived as a result of rape or incest....are they not innocent of such beginnings? would there not be someone on this earth who would not be willing to love and care for such a child?

In a perfect world....no doubt. But in this fallen sphere......afraid not. Would military intervention in 1939 in Germany saved countless millions...yep. Negotiating with madmen in control of powerful militaries rarely works. As for abortion......If my wife were the victim of rape, I would want and she would want as well an abortion. I believe that the Spirit of the unborn child continues to live and will either be reborn or will achieve celestial glory.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

In a perfect world....no doubt. But in this fallen sphere......afraid not. Would military intervention in 1939 in Germany saved countless millions...yep. Negotiating with madmen in control of powerful militaries rarely works. As for abortion......If my wife were the victim of rape, I would want and she would want as well an abortion. I believe that the Spirit of the unborn child continues to live and will either be reborn or will achieve celestial glory.

but what of you? would such an act not "stain" you? (sorry, i'm searching for a proper christian term....). if you were to to take away the life of a child (as a product of rape), would you not feel even slightly guilty? i am just curious.

[NeuroTypical]

i do not understand how a god would justify the taking of another's life.

Well, think of it this way - God has created a world where every single person living on it will experience death. Death is part of this experience. We all die. It's going to happen. It's part of the plan. And death isn't the end - it's just a chapter in an eternal existence. Part of that existence includes resurrection for pretty much everyone. So no, we don't put the same value on our current earthly existence as you do. We agree that it is precious, we do not agree that it's irreplacable.

whether killing is justifiable or not depends on the innocence of the person being killed

from a christian perspective (which, grantedly, i have a rudamentary understanding of), we are told that it isn't to us to judge. we cannot possibly have all the possible variables we need to make such a momentous decision as the taking of one's life.

Well, the Christian perspective does indeed command us to judge in certain circumstances. This isn't completely understood by some Christians - but there are a ton of scriptures commanding us to judge righteous judgement. The Jews of the Old Testament, for example, had a framework set forth in scripture that would allow the justified taking of life. Our Book of Mormon lays out very clearly that "Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed."

The Jewish God, the Christian God, the Mormon God (all the same God) does indeed lay out quite clearly that there are times and circumstances when He wants us to kill people. There's nothing frivolous or light-minded about it - it's a very weighty matter. But from where I'm standing, God does not place as high a value on earthly life as you do. He's got a broader understanding about what real life is - and it doesn't end at death.

i can say at this time that i would not kill a person, even if they were intent on harming my family. i may to something to prevent that from happening, but outright killing would not be an option for me. say a person had a gun (which i do not) and another person entered their home with the intent to do harm, that person could be rendered incompacitated by being shot in the leg or the arm or anything....i do not see how taking their life would be a viable option. again, this is certainly in my opinon. perhaps i am crazy because i am such a humanist and i absolutely value and respect human life too much!!??

Oh, I don't think you're crazy. And you are certainly not alone in thinking there's always got to be a non-lethal option to any situation. I disagree, but you're certainly not the only person I disagree with.

And at the end of the day, I'm very content sharing the same planet with folks who believe as you do, as long as you don't interfere with my right to defend myself with lethal force if I believe it's needed.

Well, my wife just texted me - she wants me to make her an appointment to get her conceal-carry permit. You see, we helped put a felon behind bars. If he should desire a little payback when he gets out, we're going to be ready for him. He'll be a lean, muscular, capable man in his mid 20's when he gets out. My wife and kids don't stand a chance in a violent confrontation against him or his buddies without some sort of equalizing force. So we're hoping for the best while preparing for the worst.

LM

[bodhigirlsmiles]

Well, think of it this way - God has created a world where every single person living on it will experience death. Death is part of this experience. We all die. It's going to happen. It's part of the plan. And death isn't the end - it's just a chapter in an eternal existence. Part of that existence includes resurrection for pretty much everyone. So no, we don't put the same value on our current earthly existence as you do. We agree that it is precious, we do not agree that it's irreplacable.

i see what you mean. that helps me to understand your views better. thank you.

Well, the Christian perspective does indeed command us to judge in certain circumstances. This isn't completely understood by some Christians - but there are a ton of scriptures commanding us to judge righteous judgement. The Jews of the Old Testament, for example, had a framework set forth in scripture that would allow the justified taking of life. Our Book of Mormon lays out very clearly that "Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed."

where, exactly, does it say that? i am not doubting you in the least!!!! this just fascinates me. i have a copy of the book of mormon (and i have read a lot of it), but i am not familiar with where everything is.

The Jewish God, the Christian God, the Mormon God (all the same God) does indeed lay out quite clearly that there are times and circumstances when He wants us to kill people. There's nothing frivolous or light-minded about it - it's a very weighty matter. But from where I'm standing, God does not place as high a value on earthly life as you do. He's got a broader understanding about what real life is - and it doesn't end at death.

in all honesty, does this bother you at all? i am guessing that you would do it anyway if your god commanded as you wish to follow his wishes, but would it be easy because you had been ordered to do so, or would you harbor any reluctance?

Oh, I don't think you're crazy. And you are certainly not alone in thinking there's always got to be a non-lethal option to any situation. I disagree, but you're certainly not the only person I disagree with.

wait....you disagree with me? lol

And at the end of the day, I'm very content sharing the same planet with folks who believe as you do, as long as you don't interfere with my right to defend myself with lethal force if I believe it's needed.

i would never do that. i am a firm supporter of your (lds) idea of free agency. i think that is beautiful.

Well, my wife just texted me - she wants me to make her an appointment to get her conceal-carry permit. You see, we helped put a felon behind bars. If he should desire a little payback when he gets out, we're going to be ready for him. He'll be a lean, muscular, capable man in his mid 20's when he gets out. My wife and kids don't stand a chance in a violent confrontation against him or his buddies without some sort of equalizing force. So we're hoping for the best while preparing for the worst.

i am very sorry to hear that! not the part of helping to put a felon behind bars, but the part about worrying as to whether this man would ever harm your wife or children. i certainly hope that is not the case.

[NeuroTypical]

Our Book of Mormon lays out very clearly that "Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed."

where, exactly, does it say that? i am not doubting you in the least!!!! this just fascinates me.

Here are a collection of relevant scriptures:

"We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded." Doctrine and Covenants 134:11

"Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives." Alma 48:14

"And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity." Alma 48:16

"And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion." Alma 43:47

The Jewish God, the Christian God, the Mormon God (all the same God) does indeed lay out quite clearly that there are times and circumstances when He wants us to kill people.

in all honesty, does this bother you at all? ... would it be easy because you had been ordered to do so, or would you harbor any reluctance?

Oh, of course it bothers me. I don't want to hurt or kill anyone. Of course it would not be easy. I believe the folks that share the earth with me are both my neighbors whom I am commanded to love, and my brothers and sisters because we all share a father in heaven. What a horrible, awful thing it would be to have to kill someone! I'd never consider doing such a thing, unless the alternative is worse, as it would be if a bad guy broke into my house because he saw my daughters out playing in the yard and figured he could have some fun with them and then dump their bodies in a ditch somewhere. I cannot permit myself to ignore the fact that such people exist.

Well, bodhigirlsmiles, you sound like a very good person. Here's hoping that both of us get to live long, healthy, happy lives that never experience such awful things like we're talking about.

LM