Do you really concur with these statements?

[KristofferUmfrey]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context.

[bytor2112]

Regarding matters of spiritual signifigance.....yep. I follow the council of the Prophet. If he says that we should be prepared and live within our means...then I strive to do that. If he says that pornography destroys lives and is a pernicious evil and should be avoided...I trust that he is correct. If he says that purple ties should always be worn on Thurdays...then not so much. We do have an ecclesiastical heirarchy in the church. Other churches do as well. In matters related to the Spirit we rely on our leaders for guidance. If I have been commiting some very serious sins like adultry.....I would confess to my Bishop and rely on his authority as a representative of Christ through the keys of Priesthood authority that he holds to guide me through the process of repentance. I am guessing Catholics are very similar as are other churches. Make sense? Edited November 19, 2008 by bytor2112

[KristofferUmfrey]

Don't get mad, just looking for people's thoughts.

[Heavenguard]

My pastor is someone I know I can talk to when I have problems, but I am also very aware of his humanity and limitations. I truly don't believe anyone gets it right all the time, even if you want to say, for example, that Papal Infallacy only pertains to matters on faith. (And similar/parallel to the Prophet and the LDS church.)

Even Aaron's sons, who had God RIGHT THERE, in their own physical presence, seeing him with their own eyes, got it wrong.

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

I have the complete JOD at my disposal so I checked to make sure the Kimball quote is in context.

Lool at it this way. If your employer tells you to complete a task, gives you the tools to complete the task and tells you how to complete the task, are you going to use different tools, complete the task in a different manner and way? If you do, and the task gets completed but not in the manner perscribed and laid down, causing the company loss in profits. Does your employer have the right to terminate your employment on the basis of insubordination?

In fact, when your boss asks you to do something (unless it is discriminatory, puts your health and life in danger/or those who work with you in danger) and you decline to do it, then are you not insubordinate?

Much like with the Prophets and leaders. People think that they should listen to the Prophet and Apostles when it comes to serious and obvious theological and doctrinal instruction. Yet, when it comes to the little things of faith, we tend to just reason and justify why we ought not to do those things.

How many members of the early saints murmured about the Word of Wisdom, trying to justify why they should have a beer, why they should smoke a little.

Now, we understand the health risks to drinking and smoking. There is empirical scientific and medical evidence to support the reason why one ought not to smoke and drink.

So, yes, when the Prophets and the Apostles say something, we should listen and listen carefully, prayerfully because what they say is just as authoritative as if Christ or Heavenly Father have said it.

Simple as that.

[OtterPop]

I think these can be very dangerous beliefs, in that they can encourage people to abandon responsibility for their own actions. Church leaders, even prophets, can be wrong. Have been wrong. (The JoD has plenty of statements that most people today believe are flat-out wrong.) And it's not always clear when they are speaking "as a prophet" vs speaking "as a man." I think it can set people up for a version of the "Nuremberg defense": I'm not responsible, because I was just following orders.

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone. Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

[bytor2112]

I think these can be very dangerous beliefs, in that they can encourage people to abandon responsibility for their own actions. Church leaders, even prophets, can be wrong. Have been wrong. (The JoD has plenty of statements that most people today believe are flat-out wrong.) And it's not always clear when they are speaking "as a prophet" vs speaking "as a man." I think it can set people up for a version of the "Nuremberg defense": I'm not responsible, because I was just following orders.

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone. Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

Very true.......we will stand at the great judgement bar of Christ alone. However, if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me. Prophets aren't always speaking as Prophets......often times as men...fallable men. So again I say, for spiritual guidance I do folow the Prophet.......for other things, I tend to work those things out myself.....with the help of the Spirit.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Very true.......we will stand at the great judgement bar of Christ alone. However, if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me. Prophets aren't always speaking as Prophets......often times as men...fallable men. So again I say, for spiritual guidance I do folow the Prophet.......for other things, I tend to work those things out myself.....with the help of the Spirit.

Do you really believe your Bishop will be accountable if you decide to follow his council and he was wrong?

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

[john doe]

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Thanks, Kris! You just Godwined this thread.

[bytor2112]

Do you really believe your Bishop will be accountable if you decide to follow his council and he was wrong?

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Yep....sure do. Not accountable for my sin mind you, just accountable for the council he gave. Why? Because he holds the keys of Priesthood authority....the authority to act in God's name.

Edited November 19, 2008 by bytor2112

[KristofferUmfrey]

Agency.......yes we will all be held accountable for our own choices. But the Bishop is an ecclesiastical leader......and is accountable for his decisions.

"if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me"

[bytor2112]

"if I follow my Bishops council in some spiritual matter and he was wrong....it will be the Bishop who is held accountable by the Lord and not me"

Not accountable for my sin mind you, just accountable for the council he gave.

[a-train]

Concur.

-a-train

[Heavenguard]

Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

SeattleTruthSeeker, your example necessitates that your boss definitively knows better than you do, and his way is the absolute most efficient (and therefore, for this purpose, the right) way. I can give examples where I know better than the President of where I work, believe you me. (*Sigh* Some of the requests I get in ... oy.)

What KristofferUmfrey is asking is whether or not we believe that the church leaders (I note he didn't say Prophet) definitively know better, and their ways are absolutely the right way(s).

[bytor2112]

Bytor, he's not arguing that the Bishop would (or not) be accountable for the wrong counsel, but whether or not you are accountable for the action you took after his counsel.

If I act on my ecclesiastical leaders council....I will be blessed....unless of course the council is to rob the convenience store.

[bytor2112]

Abortion has been a hot thread lately....so perhaps this would be a good analogy. Let' say, that I am a woman and I go to my Bishop and tell him that I want an abortion because I am afraid that I might not survive the birth and he says ok...you should do that....so you have the abortion and it turns out that he was wrong....he should have asked you to see another physician or whatever or perhaps referred you to the Stake President. You will not be accountable for acting on your Bishop's council........make sense?

[japacific]

When the bishop gives you bad advice, does it mean God was wrong?

[Kirajo]

It does sound really extreme, but I think to the people that have a strong enough testimony/faith in their leader and prophet, it makes complete sense, and maybe to those that are still struggling with their testimony is sounds foolish.

[rampion]

It seems that we are more independent thinkers now than members were expected to be back in 1945. And I think that is both good and bad in some ways. On the one hand, we have become more proud and stiff-necked and individualistic. People expect a lot out of life, and too many of us sacrifice important things for the sake of getting things that we want, leisure activities, careers, etc. It is a problem when we put ourselves first and live beyond our means, fail to help our neighbors, sacrifice family, etc. I'm probably as guilty as anyone. But there can also be too much dependence on someone else to tell us everything. Maybe sometimes we ask for more council from our leaders than is their responsibility to give. The Lord said that it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things. God expects us to think for ourselves, even when we go to Him. We should figure out some solutions and pray to know whether it is right. The sheep metaphor has its place, but can be taken too far. Sheep are better off when they trust and follow the shepherd, but if we act like sheep all the time and don't do our own thinking, we will get into trouble.

In our time, God doesn't generally tell us which career to choose, who to marry, where to go on vacation, what to have for lunch (the details, anyway), etc. I wonder if it might have been different in earlier years. In pioneer times, people were apparently given callings to go and settle particular places. One of my ancestors immigrated from Scandinavia, and was sent to Gunnison to be a farmer. He unfortunately wasn't good at farming and never did well at it, and we have too many stories in that line about people who died in farming accidents. It was recorded that these good pioneers never murmured or complained. I'm not so sure that I buy all of that, or maybe if they just went along with it, perhaps it would have been better for this ancestor if he had spoken up and said that he was not a farmer, but a taylor, and needed to find work that he was suited for. My family tends to be overly passive, and it does not serve us well.

I think that it would have been better for me if I had been taught growing up that I was responsible for my life and my choices, rather than that I would live the life that my parents expected that I would, no questions asked. Church leaders are sometimes like parents. They want what is best for us, and they do their best, but sometimes they may be prone to overstepping their boundaries, and when they do, we need to have boundaries and be responsible for ourselves and our decisions.

[tubaloth]

"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945

Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945 (which was the official church magazine before the Ensign)"

I would concur for the most part.

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

This one would be a little bit on the edge (for me)

When I was LDS, I believed that we would stand at the judgment bar alone.

Yes and part of that judgment well be how we followed the commandments of our leaders.

Accepting counsel is one thing. Assuming that one need not reflect on statements because the thinking has been done is quite another.

And I think this is part of the miss understanding that is kind of coming into this thread.

The reason we (LDS members) would trust/follow a prophet so faithfully is because we have already made that judgment up that this person is a prophet of God. That we have gotten that witness that this mortal man, has a calling of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.

This is the obligation of the members of the church. I feel if they DON’T do this and are following the prophet, then that is the wrong path. The point being, is when one follows the prophet it isn’t because of the calling or title, its because I know by the spirit, that this person is lead and guided by God.

What happened to agency? You are responsible for the choices you make, no one else.

You are, you use your agency to study it out in your mind and in your heart. You use your agency to get on your knees and pray about it. To seek the Lord in guidance. You use your agency based off the decision that you have come to know that this prophet is called of God. You use your agency to follow that council that came from one that is called of God. Agency is very much part of the process.

Under this logic Hitler (if he had lived) is the only one that should have been convicted at Nuremburg, because they were just doing what their leader told them.

Like I pointed out, this is not a good comparison. Those following Hitler did not have a choice to find out for themselves if he was the “chosen” leader. Hitler rose to that position and people were forced to follow that.

For a prophet, each member is to gain there own testimony that the prophet is called of God. Each member individually sustains that prophet on there own. If one feels that a prophet is not called of God, they can do what they well. They are not forced in any way.

[Moksha]

"Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, exhorted the Mormon people to "... learn to do as you are told, ... if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.32)."

There are a number of quotes on record by various Church leaders telling us not to be dumb sheep and follow blindly. I doubt many of us would strap a bomb on our backs and venture into a crowded place even if our Stake President told us to do so.

[OtterPop]

There are a number of quotes on record by various Church leaders telling us not to be dumb sheep and follow blindly. I doubt many of us would strap a bomb on our backs and venture into a crowded place even if our Stake President told us to do so.

But what if the prophet told you to? Couldn't happen? Don't forget that part of the endowment used to be to swear vengeance on the U.S.

[pam]

I concur with the comments in the OP.

[YoungMormonRoyalist]

Because doing what the bishop told you and killing 6 million Jews really amounts to the same thing...

Jeesh....reminds me of work.

Lady comes in, orders food. I tell her price, she gets mad. I tell her that I don't control the prices, and she says, "Oh I see, you're just like those Germans who went along with Hitler because they were following orders."

Me: (Normally I can keep cool with most customers) Yah...because charging 8 dollars for a meal is exactly like....(you get the picture)

Honestly, what are people here expecting the church leadership to ask of us?

Commands from the bishop:

Do your home teaching

Love your wife

Strenghthen your family relationship

Do temple work

Be a good neighbour

Study the scriptures and live them

Honestly...do I really need to question any of these? The cases in which really weird and innappropriate things are asked by church leadership are rarities and only pointed because they are such.

[AnthonyB]

So if the prophet tells you that he is reinstituting polygamy and that God has called him to wed your wife and you should be best man at the wedding. You'd happily get divorced and turn up and be best man at the wedding? (see Orson Pratt/Sarah Pratt history, I am not picking sides just saying that might have been a possibility.)

Could a prophet or bishop tell you to do something you know to be wrong and do you expect God to absolve you simply because you were told to do it?

I know that Abraham went to sacrifice Isaac but that was a direct command from God, he had a personal conviction/testimony. But doing something that I felt convicted was wrong because a Pastor/Priest/Prophet told me is not something I could comprehend.

Edited November 19, 2008 by AnthonyB