Doping kids -- it's time to question the practice.

[pam]

Are you saying that medicating for one's convenience and medicating to develop proper function are equivalent and condemnable? Many of us have stated throughout this thread that medications can be wisely and judiciously used to assist in learning to cope with various adversities. I can't remember anyone here condoning the use of medications as a lazy man's way to a simple outcome.

Thank you MOE. I truly appreciate that comment.

[MarginOfError]

And one wonders what he would say about the society's obsession with prescription drugs. Heck, compare advertising now and just a decade ago -- all kinds of drugs are being pushed on TV commercials. Makes one yearn for the controls over that industry put into effect in countries in Europe.

Same processes, different environment of sorts. We just disguize and hide from our primitive heritage.

What's the difference between a "power tie" and a penal shaft that men wear in many islands of the south Pacific? What's the difference between to high school teams fighting it out and when tribes come together for contests of bravery? Isn't dancing merely a display of physical power and dexterity to demonstrate attractiveness in mating? Ancietn Celtic women stripped naked and formed lines in the village centers and urged their warriors to bring back the heads of their enemies when the men went off to battle -- now we have cheerleaders dressed in skimpy outfits. And then we could discuss predatory capitalism.

Unless you want to start manipulating the genes of humans you are stuck with a hunter/predator who has been given the skills to survive in this cold dark terrestrial world. It's up to us to understand the beast and not try to medicate him or her into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standsards.

Nope, it's much better to 'discipline' them into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standards.

Or are you advocating anarchy? It's hard to tell.

[Fiannan]

Nope, it's much better to 'discipline' them into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standards.

Or are you advocating anarchy? It's hard to tell.

Sure is more natural than mind-altering drugs, wound't you say?

Also, one wonders the cost effectiveness between a Catholic nun with a ruler teaching 50 boys in the 2nd. grade or the cost of having to keep up drug company sales people, doctors and multi-billion dollar prescription drug industry.

I'd rather have the nun.

[Wingnut]

Then you can fund the therapy the 50 boys will be in for the rest of their lives.

[Gwen]

not to mention the trauma the messed up boys pass on to their wives and their children... what is it to the 3rd and 4th generation?

[ADoyle90815]

Mental illnesses such as depression and ADD/ADHD for example, are legitimate illnesses much as diabetes and cancer are. You hopefully wouldn't tell someone not to get treated for cancer because it would prevent them from "feeling the spirit" yet that's what people often say to those with a mental illness. There's no "spiritual" deficiencies that cause these, and for many people, getting treatment actually helps them to feel spiritual.

The reason why I feel this way is that I have the gene for depression, and antidepressants saved my life 8 years ago. Now, I combined the medication with therapy which is what caused it to go away and I have been antidepressant-free for 6 years. When I was at my worst, no amount of prayer, Bible reading, or church attendance could have helped me feel spiritual. With treatment, I was able to feel God's love, and I still do to this day.

[Fiannan]

not to mention the trauma the messed up boys pass on to their wives and their children... what is it to the 3rd and 4th generation?

So boys who went through traditional Catholic schools are just psych cases? Are you saying that our fast evolving dope-based society offers real hope for the future?

And people think the Amish and the FLDS are missing out on the wonders of modern society.

[Gwen]

So boys who went through traditional Catholic schools are just psych cases? Are you saying that our fast evolving dope-based society offers real hope for the future?

And people think the Amish and the FLDS are missing out on the wonders of modern society.

did you read any of my posts before this one? did you miss the example about the ruler discipline? no i'm not saying ALL what i am saying is the picture you paint of what is going on with our society and medication is inaccurate... do i think it needs an overhaul? yes, do ppl need better education and coping methods? yes are meds bad? no i don't think we have a dope based society and from what i've seen those that have been given meds appropriately and have used them as a tool are better for it. it reduces the amt of drug abuse not increases it.

[MarginOfError]

Unless you want to start manipulating the genes of humans you are stuck with a hunter/predator who has been given the skills to survive in this cold dark terrestrial world. It's up to us to understand the beast and not try to medicate him or her into submission to an artificial set of behavioral standsards.

Sure is more natural than mind-altering drugs, wound't you say?

Also, one wonders the cost effectiveness between a Catholic nun with a ruler teaching 50 boys in the 2nd. grade or the cost of having to keep up drug company sales people, doctors and multi-billion dollar prescription drug industry.

I'd rather have the nun.

The holes in your logic are large enough you could drive a traveling circus with a band of monkeys through them.

By stating that you'd rather have a nun with a ruler disciplining second grade boys, you acknowledge that you want people to submit to that same artificial set of behavioral standards. So apparently all we're debating is the best method for obtaining that submission.

So here's the big question: do we want to medicate people into submission? or do we want to beat them into submission? Such incredible options you present us, Fiannan.

Surely one such as yourself, who is so well versed in all things psychological, must have some knowledge of the long term effects of abuse on children. Perhaps you could dig up some of those studies that show that boys who are subjected to corporal punishment are more inclined to rely on physical aggression in their personal relationships. Perhaps you can find some references that show that it isn't uncommon for such children to turn into spouse and child abusers. Yeah, let's beat our children into submission. What a great idea! Someone tell my wife that because she has ADD, Fiannan has now authorized me to slap her knuckles with a ruler when she doesn't wipe the counter after dinner.

So let's never offer a child judicious use of medication to help him or her learn self-control without fear of punishment. Let's never work compassionately with a child so he or she can learn true discipline that fosters positive relationships with authority. Remember, no pain, no gain.

What you are so proudly displaying as 'discipline' is nothing more than abuse.

[Fiannan]

Mental illnesses such as depression and ADD/ADHD for example, are legitimate illnesses much as diabetes and cancer are.

Depression yes. ADD/ADHD are not mental illnesses even if you accept there is such a thing (there is no concensus in the mental health community in regards to classification or if you can actually list these "conditions" as true disorders).

Strange, if you fill out a questionare dealing with your mental health history (at a doctor's office or even if you are a donor) there doesn't seem to be any box for ADD/ADHD -- or I have not seen any. On that last part I have a great enterest in genetics and also in the modern process of egg and sperm donation. I have seen a few forms for donors and one would think if ADD/ADHD were truly a condition recognized by doctors (especially those involved in creating babies) they would not be letting people who might have this condition go in and father (or mother) dozens of children, now would they? They seem to screen for lots of other things after all and not allow donors with those negative characteristics.

[MarginOfError]

Depression yes. ADD/ADHD are not mental illnesses even if you accept there is such a thing (there is no concensus in the mental health community in regards to classification or if you can actually list these "conditions" as true disorders).

Strange, if you fill out a questionare dealing with your mental health history (at a doctor's office or even if you are a donor) there doesn't seem to be any box for ADD/ADHD -- or I have not seen any. On that last part I have a great enterest in genetics and also in the modern process of egg and sperm donation. I have seen a few forms for donors and one would think if ADD/ADHD were truly a condition recognized by doctors (especially those involved in creating babies) they would not be letting people who might have this condition go in and father (or mother) dozens of children, now would they? They seem to screen for lots of other things after all and not allow donors with those negative characteristics.

It is correct to say that ADD and ADHD are not mental illnesses. They are behavioral disorders. That's a distinction that many people don't make. Behavioral science is the red-headed bastard child that psychology wants to pretend it never fathered.

Part of the dispute over ADD/ADHD is that the cause and/or impetus for the behavioral disorder is not well understood. Many people want to say, "if we can't see what causes it, it must not exist." This runs contrary to the fact that you have a group of roughly 4% of the population that exhibits these symptoms, and when you put this group on stimulants, they become less hyperactive. This is the opposite response you would expect under normal conditions. So it follows that because it behaves consistently when manipulated, it must have a common impetus.

ADD/ADHD do not appear on medical forms because the presence of these behavioral disorders are not known to affect the outcome of treatment. Medication for these disorders may have an affect on treatment, but that's covered in the question about medications you are currently taking. It wouldn't appear on donor forms because the hereditary nature of it is still in dispute (perhaps rightfully so).

So to say that the condition must not be real because it isn't on medical forms is a fallacious extrapolation. It isn't on the medical form because it is not known to affect the expected response to treatment.

[pam]

Depression yes. ADD/ADHD are not mental illnesses even if you accept there is such a thing (there is no concensus in the mental health community in regards to classification or if you can actually list these "conditions" as true disorders).

Strange, if you fill out a questionare dealing with your mental health history (at a doctor's office or even if you are a donor) there doesn't seem to be any box for ADD/ADHD -- or I have not seen any. On that last part I have a great enterest in genetics and also in the modern process of egg and sperm donation. I have seen a few forms for donors and one would think if ADD/ADHD were truly a condition recognized by doctors (especially those involved in creating babies) they would not be letting people who might have this condition go in and father (or mother) dozens of children, now would they? They seem to screen for lots of other things after all and not allow donors with those negative characteristics.

Why does every single subject go back to your sperm donation logic? Seriously it is getting old. I'm surprised that you haven't posted something on the Youtube Christmas thread about it. Seriously.

[Wingnut]

Why does every single subject go back to your sperm donation logic? Seriously it is getting old. I'm surprised that you haven't posted something on the Youtube Christmas thread about it. Seriously.

Don't give him any ideas!

(BTW, I really hope there's no YouTube video out there that addresses Fiannan's sperm donation logic!)

[Nappaljarri]

Revelation 18 : 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

For those unaware the Greek for "sorceries" roughly translates to "pharmaceuticals" (ie drugs). So because of our trust in riches and reliance on drugs to solve all our problems, the voice of Jesus (Bridegroom), through the Spirit, is stifled and the message of the Bride (Restored Church of Christ) is incomprehensible to many.

This may be more off topic, but what Teancum has said I would go as far as to say that food manufacturers are in that boat as well. I believe that drugs and rubbish in processed foods and even fresh produce are purposefully put there to dull human brains and have us addicted to rubbish food that dulls our spiritual senses.

20 more sleeps and we'll be on our 10 acres of organic heaven.... Here we come yehaaaa!!!

[Nappaljarri]

and maybe off topic again.... but..... I rekon the rate of children with "mental ilness" has gone through the roof, right along that other excellent statistic of unwed parents and fatherless homes. I think mental ilness is a child's defense to abuse of God's law to them. Not in all cases, but I think it's a symptom of sin, these days in Sodem and Gomorah.

[TeancumsSword]

i'm curious, what is your personal experience with "mental illness"? not ppl you know or some story you read but what have you personally struggled with?

I've had a clinical psychologist try to put me on meds (I forgot the name, but it's like Paxil, starts with a D or something) My Father's side of the family is what you could classify as bi-polar, and my father is Schizophrenic.

You don't want to know what I have struggled with, and I'm not inclined to tell you. Don't assume that because I don't see meds as the answer, that I have no clue what I am talking about. K, thanks

Edit: Wellbutrin (W, B, same difference)

Edited December 3, 2008 by TeancumsSword

[MarginOfError]

I've had a clinical psychologist try to put me on meds (I forgot the name, but it's like Paxil, starts with a D or something) My Father's side of the family is what you could classify as bi-polar, and my father is Schizophrenic.

You don't want to know what I have struggled with, and I'm not inclined to tell you. Don't assume that because I don't see meds as the answer, that I have no clue what I am talking about. K, thanks

That might explain the paranoia

[TeancumsSword]

That might explain the paranoia

What me paranoid?

[prisonchaplain]

Sure is more natural than mind-altering drugs, wound't you say?

Also, one wonders the cost effectiveness between a Catholic nun with a ruler teaching 50 boys in the 2nd. grade or the cost of having to keep up drug company sales people, doctors and multi-billion dollar prescription drug industry.

I'd rather have the nun.

Is this line of argumentation meant to be provocative? Fun? Now, if your argument is, "In borderline cases, avoid medicine," I could see your arguments. On the other hand, I have to wonder if you have ever seen a child start to spiral out of control. I have. They start to get jittery. They are trying to focus, but finding it harder and harder. Pretty soon, he goes into the room with mattresses hung up, so he can calm down by literally bouncing off the walls. See, mommy and daddy "forgot" to give him his meds today...or perhaps were to hung over to bother.

Sorry...but the mean teacher with the stick won't solve this child's "behavior." She may tramautize, confuse and embitter him.

[Gwen]

I've had a clinical psychologist try to put me on meds (I forgot the name, but it's like Paxil, starts with a D or something) My Father's side of the family is what you could classify as bi-polar, and my father is Schizophrenic.

You don't want to know what I have struggled with, and I'm not inclined to tell you. Don't assume that because I don't see meds as the answer, that I have no clue what I am talking about. K, thanks

Edit: Wellbutrin (W, B, same difference)

i didn't assume anything, as i asked in my question "i'm curious"

from past experiance with ppl i've talked to many ppl that have such strong feelings have never actually had their brain doing something they don't want it to do... have never experienced what that's like or to have something that blocks the spirit and all other positive feelings... usually is someone that has never felt the relief that can come from meds that allow you to regain control of you and function normaly. when i've encoutered such ppl i find trying to have a rational conversation is a waste of time, they haven't felt it nor do they want to understand those that have... just wanted to know where i stood.

i apologize if my question offended you it was not my intent.

[Fiannan]

Why does every single subject go back to your sperm donation logic? Seriously it is getting old. I'm surprised that you haven't posted something on the Youtube Christmas thread about it. Seriously.

Because it illustrates the entire concept of genetics so well -- hey, be careful with the Christmas thing, you might consider the entire process involved in the conception of Jesus. Given what we know of His conception...

That's a topic most Christians and Muslims don't want to think about for obvious reasons.

It all goes back to the genes. And the reason I brought it up was because there are people who actually consider not having children since they don't want to pass on some condition that in reality may not even warrent being classified as abnormal. And often people with these "conditions" will say it seems to run in their family -- of course, personality traits do run in families but to say the trait is negative? Again, if these were totally accepted conditions you would think that geneticists and fertility doctors would not want to pass them on to prospective parents who are looking for totally healthy offspring, wouldn't you? They screen out people with diabetes, bad eyesight, recognized mental illnesses so why not these "new" conditions that have been caught up in the modern collective psychie?

Edited December 3, 2008 by Fiannan

[MarginOfError]

"The broad selection of targets indicates that ADHD does not follow the traditional model of a "genetic disease" and should be viewed as a complex interaction among genetic and environmental factors. Even though all these genes might play a role, to date no single gene has been shown to make a major contribution to ADHD." Wikipedia -- ADHD

Again, you can't use this as a justification that it can't be a valid and accepted condition. Your beloved fertility clinic won't imply that it can prevent ADHD when it has no way of doing so. Your logic to obtain your conclusion is overly-simplistic and lacks the ability to reflect reality.

[Fiannan]

"The broad selection of targets indicates that ADHD does not follow the traditional model of a "genetic disease" and should be viewed as a complex interaction among genetic and environmental factors. Even though all these genes might play a role, to date no single gene has been shown to make a major contribution to ADHD." Wikipedia -- ADHD

Sounds like your Wikipedia article's way of saying they don't have a clue as to what constitutes ADHD or how people allegedly with the condition differ from people without.

[prisonchaplain]

While doctors and scientists should not be followed blindly and without question, I am skeptical of what I term medical paranoia. For every prescription that is too quickly issued, there are likely several people who should take their medicine and don't. "He who doctors himself has a fool for a patient."

[MarginOfError]

Sounds like your Wikipedia article's way of saying they don't have a clue as to what constitutes ADHD or how people allegedly with the condition differ from people without.

Actually, it sounds more like you don't have a clue what you're talking about. How people with the behavioral disorder differ from those without it is quite well documented. What the statement says is that simple Mendelian genetics doesn't explain the occurrence of ADHD. Surely someone with as much knowledge and interest in genetics as yourself understands the complexity of genetic interactions and the insufficiency of Mendelian genetics in modern science.