A different view on "Free Will"

[Hemidakota]

"Without the evil, good cannot be appreciated. If there were no sorrow, there could be no full sensation of joy. And if death were not, life could not be comprehended in its completeness. It is the work of Deity to bring forth order out of chaos, light out of darkness, good out of evil, life out of death." VOL. VIII. MAY, 1887. NO. 7.

[Hemidakota]

I always prefer to use the word Agency instead of Free Agency. I don't think I can find Free Agency anywhere in the scriptures but Agency maybe.

I know that Prophets and Apostles have used the term Free Agency in talks but that is their agency to do so. :)

Ben Raines

I do ascribe to the term AGENCY but not FREE AGENCY also.

[Traveler]

There are several things in this thread that I think need to be considering. I will point out a few.

First: A choice without complete understanding of consequences and results is not a real or true choice – at best it is a guess. Jesus pointed out most clearly that it is his will that no one be judged for ignorant choices in his statement, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

. It is my personal opinion that we do not understand consequences during our mortal existence and that we suffer for our bad choices here only temporarily until G-d delivers us from the wages of sin by the grace of Jesus Christ. I believe all will accept the grace of G-d and be resurrected from the dead and forgiven of their sins. I believe that only choices where consequences and results are completely known will man be held accountable throughout eternity – this is known as sinning against the Holy Ghost. I also believe this is why we are counseled to forgive everyone and to judge or condemn no one.

Second: One purpose of life is to gain “knowledge” through experience, the difference between good and evil. This “knowledge” will allow us to make a choice between good and evil in eternity. Since we all have experience with good and evil we can choose to repent and be forgiven or we may choose to avoid the personal hassle and embarrassment of repentance and remain with the consequences of our ignorant and uninformed selections.

Third: We also develop methods to the manner we live. These habits are formed and connected to us and are part of our learning and intelligence. For example if we learn that kindness has a reward of love we may also learn that anger and vindictiveness also have their rewards. Therefore, if we have experienced both kindness and vindictiveness and knowing the results we can now decide we prefer one over the other we (as Alma points out in the Book of Mormon) become subject or dependent on that spirit we listen to. There are two spirit possibilities – one draws us unto Christ and the other to Satan and thus we become what we spend time and effort in becoming.

The Traveler

[kona0197]

Wow, LOL its like watching a child refuse to eat his peas.

You know the truth but you dont like what you hear, but that doesnt change the reality of the truth, except it or not.

If you choose 'not' then rejoice in your decision.

And the last I know the church was there for the ones that except it, bending to your situation isnt in the cards im sure, one less member what shall we do.....lol

Who ever said I believe the LDS church is the true church?

The church has power. They could look into the social security laws or have someone look into it and get the ball rolling to get a few laws changed.

[skalenfehl]

Who ever said I believe the LDS church is the true church?

I do believe you said this at one point and it would take a lot of digging to find your post. You have also been known to change your mind, bud.

[kona0197]

So I have.

[pam]

The church has power. They could look into the social security laws or have someone look into it and get the ball rolling to get a few laws changed

Give me a break. It's a Church not a legislative body. Why don't YOU write to your congressman and see if YOU can get the ball rolling.

Edited December 24, 2008 by pam

[kona0197]

Someone say something?

[gabelpa]

Kona, get a grip.

We have our beliefs and what we believe is not going to change just to appease people to bolster our numbers.

Yes, the LDS Church has political power but not nearly as much as the Christian Coalition lobby group or the Catholic Church. Even if the Church wanted to get political, it isn't powerful enough to put a dent into the armor built up by the current legislation.

[pam]

What happened to the idea of separation of Church and State? So because the two don't mix someone wants the Church to get involved. This coming from someone who doesn't believe the LDS Church is true. Interesting.

[austro-libertarian]

Let's pretend you are a ruler over a great many people. These people can not see you or talk to you but they believe in you.

You tell them through someone - a prophet or such - that they have free will.

So they are allowed to choose as long as they make the choice YOU want them to make.

You punish them if they choose a choice that you didn't want them to choose.

That makes no sense. They should be allowed to make any decision they want. You can't force people to choose the way YOU want things.

If there is only the choice you want them to make there is no other choice therefore no TRUE free will.

Get it now?

There will always be a choice, including not choosing (that being a choice). I think you may be confusing "free will," freedom, and power. You are always able to choose, only sometimes you are limited by your freedom, and other times by your power.

For example, in the US you can legally drink beer at age 21. Your freedom is "limited" in the sense that (if you obey the law--not the main point here) you cannot drink beer until you are at least 21. Now let's say you turn 21 and can choose to drink beer now that you have the freedom to do so (legally). And you decide, "This beer tastes good, and I've got 21 years of not drinking to make up for." So you drink until you drop. This is b/c even though you had the free will to make a choice (drink beer), the freedom to carry out that choice (buy beer legally), you do not have the power (in your body) to avoid the effects of too much alcohol, possibly death.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this. (Perhaps beer is not the best LDS example, given we do not advocate alcohol consumption; or perhaps it is apposite for that same reason.)

[austro-libertarian]

I should also point out that your thought experiment is pretty accurate, but not of the Lord's plan--but of Satan's. If you have learned about the two plans presented in the premortal life, it is Satan's plan you are describing. Jesus Christ submitted the plan where we could freely choose, even knowing that many would fall away.

Satan's plan would use force so that we would all make the "right decisions" and no one would fall away. Talk about a plan. No one would suffer and everyone would return "home" safely. It is very appealing, which is why one-third of Heavenly Father's spirit children chose it. And yet that would be slavery.

Christ supported our freedom to choose between good and evil, and we have the tools to do so--the light of Christ, or our conscience.

Edited December 24, 2008 by austro-libertarian

[pam]

someone say something?

fail!!!!!!!