Epistemology

[PeterVenkman]

Philosophy is valuable to me because it has the tendency to require stepping into different perspectives. It questions fundamental meaning in a way that allows us to examine our own understanding of the world. One of my favorite philosophers, Slavoj Zizek, once said that philosophers often get a bad rap because they are seen as competitors for a unified theory of life, the universe, and everything. This gets philosophy wrong. One of the most popular philosophical debates throughout history is the question between free will and determinism. People have gone back and forth trying to understand how free will is possible if God is omniscient and already knows every choice we will ever make. According to Zizek, it is not philosophy to ask whether we are subject to free will or determinism. Philosophy asks a different question: "what does it mean to be free?"

I wish to apply this philosophical mindset to knowledge. Growing up in the church, I have heard thousands bear their testimonies. Most often, I hear the following phrase: "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, I know the scriptures are true, I know the prophet is the mouthpiece of the lord." This certainty has always fascinated me. What does it mean to "know" these things?

Like Descartes, I have previously thought that I knew things that turned out to be false. I have actually been embarrassed many times by asserting what I considered to be True, when in fact it was not. I was so confused about what constituted "knowledge" that I started studying theories of knowledge...a branch of philosophy called "epistemology"...an investigation into how we know what we know.

(image from wikipedia article on "epistemology")

The above classical definition of knowledge draws a distinction between "truth" and "beliefs." Knowledge is when beliefs correspond with "truth", which is objectively verifiable and scientifically provable. "Belief" denotes faith, a prediction that something is true, without objectively verifiable evidence of truth.

From this, I understand faith, and I understand Truth (even if I am skeptical of it), but I do not understand knowledge as phrased in this context. I don't understand what it means to "know the church is true" or "know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God". I believe the church has it partially right, but I also believe the church has it partially wrong, and neither of these beliefs have been proven or shown to correspond with "truth". Therefore, I cannot say that I "know". Many people in the church don't seem to have this problem. So...I submit the following question:

How do you know what you know?

[Hemidakota]

When you have witnessed it.

[PeterVenkman]

Newspapers teach journalists that there are 6 main questions: who, what, when, where, why and how. I asked how, and you answered when.

Can you give me an example? What have you witnessed?

/not baiting

//honestly want to understand what everyone is talking about when they say they "know the church is true"

Edited December 23, 2008 by PeterVenkman

[Hemidakota]

Going back to the earlier church with the saying that GOD is not a respector of any person. When we finally pass through the refiners fire, it is then we received a first-hand witness of the Godhead in person.

[PeterVenkman]

I am confused. Can you please explain to me what the "refiners fire" is? Do you remember passing through the refiners fire? Have you witnessed the Godhead in person first-hand?

I don't remember these things, and so I am curious.

[Hemidakota]

Refining Fires

Whate'er of trials come to us,

Of this we do feel sure;

That we, through grace of Christ alone,

Have power to endure.

And through his precious light of faith

Our souls are made secure.

What wondrous blessings come to those,

Who trials shall endure,

By which the soul is sanctified,

The life from sin made pure.

And through his holy sacrament

Eternal life secure.

Through partaking of the symbols

Of his flesh and blood,

The soul's thus made to stronger grow

'Gainst sin's o'erwhelming flood;

By taking of those emblems pure,

We're fed life's lasting food.

And thus he cleanseth man from dross

And seeks to save from sin,

And unto truth and righteousness

His sin-stained soul to win,

That in partaking of his love

A new life we begin.

Help us to feel his wondrous power,

His mission most divine,

Let perfect faith our beacon be

To guard from sin and crime,

And give us power in every hour,

To say, "Thy will, not mine."

Oakland, California. ANNIE G. LAURITZEN

[BenRaines]

When I was younger I believed that fire was hot, I felt that it gave off warmth. Truth is that fire can burn you. One day I touched the wood stove in the house. Knowledge it was very hot, got burned.

When I learned about LDS faith I was 15. Had been attending, on occasion, the Southern Baptist Church in our area. Had an interest in Christ, God, faith, scriptures, a belief. As I learned of the LDS beliefs I too had faith that what I was hearing was true. The scriptures teach that we can know the truth of all things by the Holy Ghost. Anyone can. I was baptised and later served a mission, I taught that these things I believed to be true. Married in the temple, attended church faithfully and did all those things asked of me, served in many different capacities. It was after many years of study, prayer, experience, etc. that one day I came to know. I received a witness of the Holy Ghost that these things I have believed for so many years are true.

Before that I had always felt that "Oh well, even if they aren't I have lived a good life and done no one intentional harm". Now I look forward to the day to be reunited with my God and Jesus Christ.

Belief+Truth= this knowledge.

That is how I arrived at this point.

As for those many who say in testimony meeting "I know this is true". I think that many are parroting what they have heard over the years but that is what I think and who am I to judge.

Ben Raines

[PeterVenkman]

Mr. Raines,

Thank you for your testimony, it makes sense to me. Your belief certainly corresponded with truth to create knowledge that fire was hot. That much I understand. The rest though, I am confused. I also once believed that I could know the "truth" of things through the holy ghost, also known as the "still small voice." I am particularly interested in this part of your post:

"It was after many years of study, prayer, experience, etc. that one day I came to know."

I am intrigued about how that happened. How did you come to know? When did it go beyond the utilitarian value of Pascal's wager? Did you read or see some evidence that converted it from faith to objective truth?

[Moksha]

So...I submit the following question:

How do you know what you know?

We frequently use the word know, when the word believe would be more appropriate. However, I think many believers have been conditioned to think that the usage of the word know, is somehow superior to the word believe. Perhaps that is part of the Gnosis of our Mormon Unconsciousness. Or perhaps it is predicated on one getting more BYU sweethearts with the usage of the more macho sounding know. No knowers will get sand kicked in their face on the beach like those namby-pamby believers. Unless of course, it is done by the dread Epistemological Gang.

[HoosierGuy]

One of the most popular philosophical debates throughout history is the question between free will and determinism. People have gone back and forth trying to understand how free will is possible if God is omniscient and already knows every choice we will ever make.

That used to bother me too but now I realize free will and God knowing every choice we will ever make can and does exist together. We just can't understand it right now because we have a veil over our memories. I'm pretty sure we understood how it's possible in the pre-life and I'm sure we will understand it again in the Spirit world or when we reach the Kingdoms. It's the same with Heavenly Father knowing each and every one of us more than we know ourselves. With billions and billions and billions of sons and daughters, how is it possible for Heavenly Father to know each and every one of us? Easy - He's God! And it all will make perfect sense to us in the future.

[PeterVenkman]

That used to bother me too but now I realize free will and God knowing every choice we will ever make can and does exist together. We just can't understand it right now because we have a veil over our memories. I'm pretty sure we understood how it's possible in the pre-life and I'm sure we will understand it again in the Spirit world or when we reach the Kingdoms. It's the same with Heavenly Father knowing each and every one of us more than we know ourselves. With billions and billions and billions of sons and daughters, how is it possible for Heavenly Father to know each and every one of us? Easy - He's God! And it all will make perfect sense to us in the future.

Hence the point of this thread...how are you sure? How are you sure there even was a "pre-life", or that we knew everything in totality in that pre-life? How are you sure there is a "spirit world" or that we will reach it somehow? How are you sure that God knows every thought that has gone through every living being's mind for all of eternity?

[Prodigal_Son]

It seems to me that you're desperately in search of a PHYSICAL manifestation of a SPIRITUAL confirmation. I'm not sure that's how this works. It almost sounds like you're seeking signs? I'm not sure what other "proofs" you might be hoping to encounter... If I'm misunderstanding you, let me know.

I have witnessed to others that I "know" of the validity of the Gospel. I've seen no angels, nor talked to God, etc. But I HAVE witnessed myriad miracles. I HAVE felt the confirming power of the Holy Ghost again and again and again.

If I may, I'd like to suggest a simple solution to the formula you provided via the chart in your initial post. While I don't know that it'll satisfy your concerns, it readily speaks peace to my mind and heart... so here goes:

Bruce R. McConkie taught that 'the Spirit is broadcasting ALL truth at ALL times'. Thus, each time the Spirit touches us, we are being assured by a member of the Godhead that what we just heard/witnessed IS TRUTH. These moments generally arrive in moments of discussion/contemplation/practicing of our beliefs. When these moments arrive, you have the merging of BELIEFS with the witness of TRUTHS. These moments are the building blocks of progressing from "believing" to "knowing".

[aliasgeorge]

Philosophy is valuable to me because it has the tendency to require stepping into different perspectives. It questions fundamental meaning in a way that allows us to examine our own understanding of the world. One of my favorite philosophers, Slavoj Zizek, once said that philosophers often get a bad rap because they are seen as competitors for a unified theory of life, the universe, and everything. This gets philosophy wrong. One of the most popular philosophical debates throughout history is the question between free will and determinism. People have gone back and forth trying to understand how free will is possible if God is omniscient and already knows every choice we will ever make. According to Zizek, it is not philosophy to ask whether we are subject to free will or determinism. Philosophy asks a different question: "what does it mean to be free?"

I wish to apply this philosophical mindset to knowledge. Growing up in the church, I have heard thousands bear their testimonies. Most often, I hear the following phrase: "I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, I know the scriptures are true, I know the prophet is the mouthpiece of the lord." This certainty has always fascinated me. What does it mean to "know" these things?

Like Descartes, I have previously thought that I knew things that turned out to be false. I have actually been embarrassed many times by asserting what I considered to be True, when in fact it was not. I was so confused about what constituted "knowledge" that I started studying theories of knowledge...a branch of philosophy called "epistemology"...an investigation into how we know what we know.

(image from wikipedia article on "epistemology")

The above classical definition of knowledge draws a distinction between "truth" and "beliefs." Knowledge is when beliefs correspond with "truth", which is objectively verifiable and scientifically provable. "Belief" denotes faith, a prediction that something is true, without objectively verifiable evidence of truth.

From this, I understand faith, and I understand Truth (even if I am skeptical of it), but I do not understand knowledge as phrased in this context. I don't understand what it means to "know the church is true" or "know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God". I believe the church has it partially right, but I also believe the church has it partially wrong, and neither of these beliefs have been proven or shown to correspond with "truth". Therefore, I cannot say that I "know". Many people in the church don't seem to have this problem. So...I submit the following question:

How do you know what you know?

An interesting question. In reading your perspective on this issue, I will submit to you what I see as the falacy in your argument--that being the definition of "'Truth', which is objectively verifiable and scientifically provable." I do not believe this is what it means if something is true. Truth as I see it (and as taught in LDS theology) is defined in D&C 93:24, which states: "24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" With this we learn in verse 28 that "28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things."

I recommend you read D&C 93 and study it to understand the LDS beliefs concerning the words "truth" "light" "knowledge" and "intelligence." God defines them differently than the world does. And it is my personal experience in school (especially graduate level) that the world, or many academics of the world rather, unilaterally define "truth" as something that they must be able to "prove" in and of themselves objectively, in a labratory, etc. Whether or not something is true or not depends nothing on what has been done in the lab. If its true, its true regardless of what your western blot showed last week. And that said, according to the tennets of the scientific method, it is impossible to prove something unless you can test it in a controlled setting, able to control all the variables. Much truth can come out of such a setting, but is there any way to actually do such with life's higher questions? about God? about creation? about death? about life after death? spirituality? karma? revelation? Prayer? No. Its impossible. Science has its theories and observations, but due to the nature of the question and limitations of the scientific method its impossible to "prove" something to the extent to "know the truth" about any of these. Though in some areas godless scientists love to say they have "proven" x, y and z about these, and "thats why their athiest" etc. But they must take the same leap of faith to believe their theories as I do to believe in God--the difference is that God has given us a different way to experiment and come to know Him and His truths--which are THE truth as He defines them in D&C 93.

Read D&C 93, Moroni 10:3-5, the Bible Dictionary under "prayer," and the Joseph Smith History in the back of the triple (ie book with the BofM, D&C, and PorGP).

Logically there is only one conclusion when it comes to questions of this nature--God must reveal himself to man or remain forever unknown. Man cannot come to know God and His higher truths in and of themselves. Thus each of us here in this life have 2 options: try it God's way=seek him humbly and sincerely, obeying his commandments and repenting of our sins, in prayer and fasting to know if He really is there, asking if the Book of Mormon really is true, and if Joseph Smith really is a prophet, and all the other things that you mentioned that you hear in testimony meeting. The other option--don't do it God's way, and remain forever skeptical, unbelieving, or confused about the personal experiences that others will tell us who chose to do it God's way.

A man knows the truth concerning these higher questions, which are unanswerable by the scientific method, only when God tells it to him. And God tells the individual through the Holy Spirit in a way that leaves no question to the individual, but due to the limits of language is extraordinarily difficult to describe and convey to others who have not had such an experience--but God will not be mocked. Only those who do it His way, following His methodology, can ever have the personal experience that leads to "knowing the truth." I would be, and was, a skeptic, until I chose to do it God's way and then God kept His promises to me, his child, so that I Know the Truth. Hope that helps answer the question.

Edited December 24, 2008 by aliasgeorge

[MarginOfError]

This is deserving of my Grapefruit Speech, but I don't want to type it again, and I can't find it. Anyone remember where I posted my Grapefruit Speech?

[FunkyTown]

Therefore, I cannot say that I "know". Many people in the church don't seem to have this problem. So...I submit the following question:

How do you know what you know?

I'm sorry, Peter. You have a very logical mind and people are speaking to you from an entirely different perspective than you have.

"I know" in this case constitutes, "Belief without doubt." It means, "I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet much like I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe Jesus died for my sins much like I believe that that I exist."

To "know" in this context is to experience, or believe you have experienced, something so profound or something so reinforced by its regularity of expression, that you can not imagine it not being so.

In that context, I know the church is true.

[Hemidakota]

That used to bother me too but now I realize free will and God knowing every choice we will ever make can and does exist together. We just can't understand it right now because we have a veil over our memories. I'm pretty sure we understood how it's possible in the pre-life and I'm sure we will understand it again in the Spirit world or when we reach the Kingdoms. It's the same with Heavenly Father knowing each and every one of us more than we know ourselves. With billions and billions and billions of sons and daughters, how is it possible for Heavenly Father to know each and every one of us? Easy - He's God! And it all will make perfect sense to us in the future.

How does GOD know the outcome of HIS children? Every world that gives life to mortal human play the same 'play', same roles, but with different actors. Each actors is closely picked to fit that role.

[Hemidakota]

I'm sorry, Peter. You have a very logical mind and people are speaking to you from an entirely different perspective than you have.

"I know" in this case constitutes, "Belief without doubt." It means, "I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet much like I believe the sun will rise tomorrow. I believe Jesus died for my sins much like I believe that that I exist."

To "know" in this context is to experience, or believe you have experienced, something so profound or something so reinforced by its regularity of expression, that you can not imagine it not being so.

In that context, I know the church is true.

Agreed.

BELIEF = FAITH

KNOWLEDGE = EXPERIENCE FIRST-HAND or WITNESSED THE EVENT

[Hemidakota]

When I was younger I believed that fire was hot, I felt that it gave off warmth. Truth is that fire can burn you. One day I touched the wood stove in the house. Knowledge it was very hot, got burned.

When I learned about LDS faith I was 15. Had been attending, on occasion, the Southern Baptist Church in our area. Had an interest in Christ, God, faith, scriptures, a belief. As I learned of the LDS beliefs I too had faith that what I was hearing was true. The scriptures teach that we can know the truth of all things by the Holy Ghost. Anyone can. I was baptised and later served a mission, I taught that these things I believed to be true. Married in the temple, attended church faithfully and did all those things asked of me, served in many different capacities. It was after many years of study, prayer, experience, etc. that one day I came to know. I received a witness of the Holy Ghost that these things I have believed for so many years are true.

Before that I had always felt that "Oh well, even if they aren't I have lived a good life and done no one intentional harm". Now I look forward to the day to be reunited with my God and Jesus Christ.

Belief+Truth= this knowledge.

That is how I arrived at this point.

As for those many who say in testimony meeting "I know this is true". I think that many are parroting what they have heard over the years but that is what I think and who am I to judge.

Ben Raines

You can bible bash...you can recite the scriptures to another but you can't deny a person of a true testimony. Thanks for sharing your testimony.

I know over time, through hope and faith, truths are revealed to that person until it becomes knowledge.

[Hemidakota]

Elder James E. Faust gave talk on this subject called "The Refiner's Fire"

I direct my thoughts to all, but especially to those who feel they have had more trials, sorrows, pricks, and thorns than they can bear and in their adversity are almost drowned in the waters of bitterness. My message is intended as one of hope, strength, and deliverance. I speak of the refiner's fire.

Some years ago President David O. McKay told of the experience of some of those in the Martin handcart company. Many of these early converts had emigrated from Europe and were too poor to buy oxen or horses and a wagon. They were forced by their poverty to pull handcarts containing all of their belongings across the plains by their own brute strength. President McKay relates an occurrence which took place some years after the heroic exodus: "A teacher, conducting a class, said it was unwise ever to attempt, even to permit [the Martin handcart company] to come across the plains under such conditions.

[According to a class member] some sharp criticism of the Church and its leaders was being indulged in for permitting any company of converts to venture across the plains with no more supplies or protection than a handcart caravan afforded.

"An old man in the corner . . . sat silent and listened as long as he could stand it, then he arose and said things that no person who heard him will ever forget. His face was white with emotion, yet he spoke calmly, deliberately, but with great earnestness and sincerity.

"In substance [he] said, 'I ask you to stop this criticism. You are discussing a matter you know nothing about. Cold historic facts mean nothing here, for they give no proper interpretation of the questions involved. Mistake to send the Handcart Company out so late in the season? Yes. But I was in that company and my wife was in it and Sister Nellie Unthank whom you have cited was there, too. We suffered beyond anything you can imagine and many died of exposure and starvation, but did you ever hear a survivor of that company utter a word of criticism? Not one of that company ever apostatized or left the Church, because everyone of us came through with the absolute knowledge that God lives, for we became acquainted with him in our extremities.

"'I have pulled my handcart when I was so weak and weary from illness and lack of food that I could hardly put one foot ahead of the other. I have looked ahead and seen a patch of sand or a hill slope and I have said, I can go only that far and there I must give up, for I cannot pull the load through it.'"

He continues: "'I have gone on to that sand and when I reached it, the cart began pushing me. I have looked back many times to see who was pushing my cart, but my eyes saw no one. I knew then that the angels of God were there.

"'Was I sorry that I chose to come by handcart? No. Neither then nor any minute of my life since. The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.'" (Relief Society Magazine, January 1948, p. 8.)

Here, then, is a great truth. In the pain, the agony, and the heroic endeavors of life, we pass through a refiner's fire, and the insignificant and the unimportant in our lives can melt away like dross and make our faith bright, intact, and strong. In this way the divine image can be mirrored from the soul. It is part of the purging toll exacted of some to become acquainted with God. In the agonies of life, we seem to listen better to the faint, godly whisperings of the Divine Shepherd.

Into every life there come the painful, despairing days of adversity and buffeting. There seems to be a full measure of anguish, sorrow, and often heartbreak for everyone, including those who earnestly seek to do right and be faithful. The thorns that prick, that stick in the flesh, that hurt, often change lives that seem robbed of significance and hope. This change comes about through a refining process that often seems cruel and hard. In this way the soul can become like soft clay in the hands of the Master in building lives of faith, usefulness, beauty, and strength. For some, the refiner's fire causes a loss of belief and faith in God, but those with eternal perspective understand that such refining is part of the perfection process.

In our extremities, it is possible to become born again, born anew, renewed in heart and spirit. We no longer ride with the flow of the crowd, but instead we enjoy the promise of Isaiah to be renewed in our strength and "mount up with wings as eagles." (Isa. 40:31.)

The proving of one's faith goes before the witnessing, for Moroni testified, "Ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." (Ether 12:6.) This trial of faith can become a priceless experience. Stated Peter, "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ." (1 Pet. 1:7.) Trials and adversity can be preparatory to becoming born anew.

A rebirth out of spiritual adversity causes us to become new creatures. From the book of Mosiah we learn that all mankind must be born again—born of God, changed, redeemed, and uplifted—to become the sons and daughters of God. (See Mosiah 27:24-27.)

President Marion G. Romney, speaking for the Lord, has said of this marvelous power: "The effect upon each person's life is likewise similar. No person whose soul is illuminated by the burning Spirit of God can in this world of sin and dense darkness remain passive. He is driven by an irresistible urge to fit himself to be an active agent of God in furthering righteousness and in freeing the lives and minds of men from the bondage of sin." (Conference Report, 4 October 1941, p. 89.)

The feelings of being reborn were expressed by Parley P. Pratt as follows: "If I had been set to turn the world over, to dig down a mountain, to go to the ends of the earth, or traverse the deserts of Arabia, it would have been easier than to have undertaken to rest, while the Priesthood was upon me. I have received the holy anointing, and I can never rest till the last enemy is conquered, death destroyed, and truth reigns triumphant." (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-86, 1:15.)

Unfortunately, some of our greatest tribulations are the result of our own foolishness and weakness and occur because of our own carelessness or transgression. Central to solving these problems is the great need to get back on the right track and, if necessary, engage in each of the steps for full and complete repentance. Through this great principle, many things can be made fully right and all things better. We can go to others for help. To whom can we go? Elder Orson F. Whitney asked and answered this question: "To whom do we look, in days of grief and disaster, for help and consolation? . . . They are men and women who have suffered, and out of their experience in suffering they bring forth the riches of their sympathy and condolences as a blessing to those now in need. Could they do this had they not suffered themselves?

" . . . Is not this God's purpose in causing his children to suffer? He wants them to become more like himself. God has suffered far more than man ever did or ever will, and is therefore the great source of sympathy and consolation." (Improvement Era, November 1918, p. 7.)

Isaiah, before the Savior's birth, referred to Him as "a man of sorrows." (Isa. 53:3.) Speaking in the Doctrine and Covenants of Himself, the Savior said: "Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink." (D&C 19:18.)

Some are prone to feel that their afflictions are punishment. Roy Doxey states: "The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that it is a false idea to believe that the saints will escape all the judgments—disease, pestilence, war, etc.—of the last days; consequently, it is an unhallowed principle to say that these adversities are due to transgression. . . .

"President Joseph F. Smith taught that it is a feeble thought to believe that the illness and affliction that come to us are attributable either to the mercy or the displeasure of God." (The Doctrine and Covenants Speaks, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1970, 2:373.)

Paul understood this perfectly. When referring to the Savior, he said: "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Heb. 5:8-9.)

For some, the suffering is extraordinary.

Stillman Pond was a member of the second Quorum of Seventy in Nauvoo. He was an early convert to the Church, having come from Hubbardston, Massachusetts. Like others, he and his wife, Maria, and their children were harassed and driven out of Nauvoo. In September 1846, they became part of the great western migration. The early winter that year brought extreme hardships, including malaria, cholera, and consumption. The family was visited by all three of these diseases.

Maria contracted consumption and all of the children were stricken with malaria. Three of the children died while moving through the early snows. Stillman buried them on the plains. Maria's condition worsened because of the grief, pain, and the fever of malaria. She could no longer walk. Weakened and sickly, she gave birth to twins. They were named Joseph and Hyrum, and both died within a few days.

The Stillman Pond family arrived at Winter Quarters and, like many other families, they suffered bitterly while living in a tent. The death of the five children coming across the plains to Winter Quarters was but a beginning.

The journal of Horace K. and Helen Mar Whitney verifies the following regarding four more of the children of Stillman Pond who perished:

"On Wednesday, the 2nd of December 1846, Laura Jane Pond, age 14 years, . . . died of chills and fever." Two days later on "Friday, the 4th of December 1846, Harriet M. Pond, age 11 years, . . . died with chills." Three days later, "Monday, the 7th of December, 1846, Abigail A. Pond, age 18 years, . . . died with chills." Just five weeks later, "Friday, the 15th of January, 1847, Lyman Pond, age 6 years, . . . died with chills and fever." Four months later, on May 17, 1847, his wife Maria Davis Pond also died. Crossing the plains, Stillman Pond lost nine children and a wife. He became an outstanding colonizer in Utah, and became the senior president of the thirty-fifth Quorum of Seventy. (See Leon Y. and H. Ray Pond, comps., "Stillman Pond, a Biographical Sketch," in Sterling Forsyth Histories, typescript, Church Historical Department Archives, pp. 4-5.)

Having lost these nine children and his wife in crossing the plains, Stillman Pond did not lost his faith. He did not quit. He went forward. He paid a price, as have many others before and since, to become acquainted with God.

The Divine Shepherd has a message of hope, strength, and deliverance for all. If there were no night, we would not appreciate the day, nor could we see the stars and the vastness of the heavens. We must partake of the bitter with the sweet. There is a divine purpose in the adversities we encounter every day. They prepare, they purge, they purify, and thus they bless.

When we pluck the roses, we find we often cannot avoid the thorns which spring from the same stem.

Out of the refiner's fire can come a glorious deliverance. It can be a noble and lasting rebirth. The price to become acquainted with God will have been paid. There will be a reawakening of dormant, inner resources. A comfortable cloak of righteousness will be drawn around us to protect us and to keep us warm spiritually. Self-pity will vanish as our blessings are counted.

I now wish to conclude by testifying concerning Jesus as the Christ and the Divine Redeemer. He lives! His are the sweet words of eternal life. He is the Son of the Living God. This is His holy work and glory. This is His church. It is true. I am most grateful for this sacred knowledge. It is my cherished privilege and duty to so testify.

As Paul stated for those that are called by GOD in Hebrews 12:6-8

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

What is the reward?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[rameumptom]

The issue of truth, is that we define truth via our senses and perceptions. I believe many things to be true that others have witnessed to me: quarks and France are two of them. In fact, enough witnessing has been given that although I personally have not actually seen France or a quark, I can say I "know" they exist. Epistemologically, the knowing is still actually a belief, but is based on very strong evidence.

In spiritual matters, it is the same thing. I have experienced very powerful spiritual events that have strengthened my belief in religious things.

Here's an example, right after my mission, I was dirt poor and unemployed (Jimmy Carter's recession). I was assigned to hometeach a new member who was a full time student. He asked me what to do on a problem he had: he could either pay his tithes or his rent, but not both. Believing intensely in the law of tithes, to where I could say it has knowledge components in the mix, I encouraged him to pay his tithes and the Lord would make up the rent. And if the Lord didn't, I would pay his rent (even though I had no money). He paid his tithes, and 2 days before his rent was due, he received a letter from his mother (not a Mormon), who lived 1200 miles away. In the letter she said she'd been saving money in her cookie jar for years for a rainy day. Something told her that he needed the money, so enclosed was a check - for the amount of his rent.

While some would claim such events to be purely coincidental, to me they are evidences that create a knowledge, built upon faith. Spiritual witnesses are the same for me. I've had some that I consider very amazing and awesome, and have left me with little, if any, doubt pertaining to certain things of the gospel.

Yet, what would be knowledge to me, would/could still be a point of question or faith/doubt to another who is on a different spiritual road/path.

How does one respond to the individual (Mormon or not) who claims to have seen Christ? Is it with doubt, faith, open or closed minded, or what? Do we see the person as having a "frenzied mind" or as a credible witness?

In most Christian and other religions' beliefs, most religious experiences occur to a single individual. Mohammed had no other see Gabriel with him.

Yet, Joseph Smith shared his visions with Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Frederick G. Williams, the Three Witnesses, and hundreds in the Kirtland Temple. How do we explain this? Either it is mass delusion or an actual event. Either way, it becomes evidence that what Joseph Smith claimed was not just one charlatan bespeaking his verbal snake oil. Instead, it would have required an entire concert of people involved in the ruse - many of whom would leave the Church, offended by Joseph, yet would not deny their spiritual witnesses!

Either that, or Joseph was no charlatan, but such spiritual events actually did occur. Given the experiences I've had, and Joseph Smith was no where in sight when I had them, I personally witness that I know the gospel to be true, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

[rameumptom]

As on the definition of truth, I like what was said by Harrison Ford in the 3rd Indiana Jones' movie, where he is teaching a new class:

Archaeology is the search for fact... not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.

[KristofferUmfrey]

Alma 8 : 40 And now behold, I say unto you, that the foundation of the destruction of this people is beginning to be laid by the unrighteousness of your lawyers and your judges.

[Hemidakota]

Man! Wheres the laugh button when you need it? Ram, thanks for the humor in posting the Indiana Jones remark.

[PeterVenkman]

Wow, a lot of comments to chew on here from last night. I need to take some time to think about them one by one and post my thoughts. Thank you very much for the insightful perspectives...

Except for you KristofferUmfrey. You have now posted that scripture twice, somehow intending to imply that I am laying the foundation for the destruction of the world on the basis that I went to law school. You're out of line. I guess it's a good thing I'm not a lawyer...

Rame, I find it interesting that you quoted Indiana Jones for the notion that "truth" is a philosophical question...especially since my original post on this subject was mostly about the value of philosophy.

[HiJolly]

According to the graphic, we have Blue = Beliefs; Yellow = Knowledge; Orange = Truth; and Purple = (unknown/unlabeled). I would argue that 'knowledge' being a subset of some unlabeled area (Purple) is unhelpful and incomplete.

What is the label for the Purple region? In the Church, and scripturally speaking (BoM & NT) the Purple region is FAITH. The Yellow is Gnosis. Shall we start with that?

Sam Harris in his book "The End of Faith" argues that faith = unjustified belief; belief = justified, reasoned conclusions; and gnosis = (nothing). This is a significant disconnect.

Semantics? Yes, for sure, but epistemology always requires great care and caution in semantics. We cannot just 'blow off' meanings of words. gnosis has none of this difficulty, as its meaning transcends the limited symbology of language.

I vastly prefer gnosis to any epistemelogical methodology. In my view, there is simply NO comparison. And they both lead us to (hopefully) truth.

Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed philosophy somewhat, and formal, even mathematical logic was a real excitement for me to learn in college. I have used the Socratic method in a Zen-like application to dispose of my false conceptions and refine my own beliefs. But ultimately, what I *know* has been the result of God's grace, via gnosis.

Thank God for the teachings and environment of the Church, which led me to living a life that brought these experiences to me.

HiJolly

Edited December 24, 2008 by HiJolly