The biggest robbery of the century

[Mahdi]

Yeah, you can argue the side of the Palestinians. You can feel their pain, and argue the case that Israel is the agressor. But from where I'm standing, these Hamas' tactics are unsupportable and undefendable by anyone who considers themselves good and moral. If you disagree, please show me how you can support and defend:

* Targeting innocent civilians and trying to kill them.

* Surrounding your military operations with children.

* Using mentally disabled or drugged people to run suicide bombing missions.

LM

I think we should return to the root of this war.Why are they in war?

And why they attack each other?the answer to this question will show us who is in the right side!Israelis or palestinians?

I have a serious question from you:

Imagine that some person come to USA and buy some lands from the people of USA in an area.Can they after a while constitued another country with those lands?!Can they claim :" now we have a new country and you should accept it?".Will you let them?

(It has a long story but I try to make it brief.)

About 60 years ago some persons decided to constitude Israel in the land of palestine and according to their believe "the holy land" .(Although Muslims also believe that it is a "holy land".)

Those days Muslims were living with Jews and christians in peace.there were no war,no bloodshed,... .But after coming Israel it became!

It was after the world war II and the england troop were in palestine.

So those persons decided to buy the palestinians' lands.England helped them much!How?

First some land were sold by palestinians(They didn't know that what happen will occur after a while!).because that group of Jews were rich ,they start buying the major lands of palestine.England raised up the taxes much so palestinians that were poor, had to sell their lands to make mony.Slowly many person who said that we are Jews came to this land and bought the palestinian lands that were bought by england from palestinians!

After a while they said that we want to constitude another country in this country!!!(How can it be acceptable?)

Slowly that group of Jews started to invite from other Jews from all over th world to come to this land.Palestinians protested the England many times and each time they promised palestinians that they shouldn't be worry about that!!!But the other side of the coin was another thing!They helped Zionists,they let them to enter weapons,they gave them the major Jobs in Palestine,... .

Arabs decided to help Palestinians so the 6 days war between Arabs and Israel occured .

and till now war is continuing... .

Who can accept that?if I buy some land from your country and then say that we now have a new country in your land and you shouldn't protest!

It is palestinians right

[NeuroTypical]

I think we should return to the root of this war.Why are they in war?

...

About 60 years ago...

Ok, so hold on a second. I understand the usefulness in figuring out why these folks are fighting. But going back a mere 60 years is NOT returning to the root of the war. The history of this place started a much longer time ago than 60 years.

Here are two links who try very hard to be impartial, trying to give a full history of the place:

St. Petersburg Times: Children of Abraham - The Battle for Palestine

Mideastweb: Israel and Palestine - A Brief History

Going back a mere 60 years to look for a starting place for this conflict is misleading, useless, and borders on intellectually dishonest. Jews and their enemies have been fighting over this place for millenia, not just 60 years.

If one gains a sense of the history of the place, one's time is productively spent asking themselves why this area is so different and unique when compared to other areas. After all, every person reading this is occupying a land that has been involved in violent conflict at least one time in the past. Eventually, there were clear winners and clear losers where you live. Not so with the Israel/Palestine area.

LM

Edited January 1, 2009 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[BenRaines]

The buying of the land is an interesting point. So people of Jewish ancestry came to Palestine, lawfully purchased a bunch of land from Palestinians who were willing to sell. Hmm, I wonder if there was any greed involved in those who saw, stupid American Jews, coming to Palestine and willing to buy desert land and for a good price. Nah, I am sure there was no greed involved.

Later as they became a vocal and powerful force they elected their own representatives and eventually formed their own government. Hmmm, I think that is how it has been done for almost every country that has been formed.

As LM has said this goes back much more than 60 years. The actual modern day conflict is not even 60 years old. It has only been in the last 20-30 years that they have not been able to live in peace. Palestinian and Israeli have lived in peace for many years after Israel was formed.

Ben Raines

[Islander]

I think we should return to the root of this war.Why are they in war?

And why they attack each other?the answer to this question will show us who is in the right side!Israelis or palestinians? Who can accept that?if I buy some land from your country and then say that we now have a new country in your land and you shouldn't protest!

It is palestinians right[/QUOE]

I suggest a more in depth history inquiry. The operational realities of the Middle East are complex and with a long history of violence. There was violence, and plenty of it, prior to 1948 between the Arabs and the Jews in Palestina going back to 1920. So, limiting the origin of the conflict to the 1948 UN-mandated partition is shortsighted, to say the least. There was no clearly defined geopolitical borders in the Middle East at the time. The region was a collection of tribal chieftains and nomadic enclaves away from the historical "cities" in what is today Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There were no Palestinians in the modern sense of the world in the region in 1948.

A more practical approach would be to set history aside, since it can not be undone, and explore the causes of failure to peaceful coexistence. There is ample evidence that Arab states have done little to support a Palestinian State. Most of the support goes to insurrection and armed opposition to Israel rather than social and political improvement.

Since June 2008 when the cease fire was proposed Hamas has fired 1200 rockets at Israel. The UN said nothing, the Arab league said nothing and the world press remained silent for the most part. That seems like a bias position.

Just as a mental exercise conside the following: A radical political party has taken over the government of Baja California, Mexico. They declared the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo of 1848 nullified and void. They demand the return of the 525,000 square miles of land taken by the US in the accord. The US refuses. The radical Mexican party begins the systematic bombardment of San Diego and other southern US cities. After an energetic response from the US military a cease fire is reached. During the 6 month (of declared cease fire) the radical Mexican party fires 1000 rockets at civilian targets in the US killing dozens of civilians and destroying dozens of business and housing. What should the US response should be?

Edited January 1, 2009 by Islander

[BenRaines]

Wipe it off the face of the earth? :)

Ben Raines

[checkerboy]

Correct me if I am wrong but there were no Muslim Arabs until approx. 600 AD. Jews have been around as a nation since approx. 1300 BC. So let's see who's land is it?

[a-train]

The expansion of this conflict all around the world will only make it that much worse. We need to allow those directly involved to solve it. All aid should be completely removed. The U.S. actually provides more of our tax dollars to enemies of Israel than to Israel. The best U.S. policy I've heard is to simply stop subsidizing the war.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

In the name of God

Look at this picture:

The green points are the places in which Palestinians lived.During about 50 years,you now see the disaster!We can name this event "the biggest robbery of the century".

I don't know how do you think about Palestine and Israel .Maybe Israel for you are Holy troop that has come from Jesus(Peace be upon Him)! Or you think that they must live in the Holy land or...

but Just look at what todays and especially nowadays happen in palestine!

Many children are bieng killed.Their weapons are small stones but what about Israeli troops?They fight with aircrafts and tanks,modern weapons.

(How equal war!!!)

I am sure that who kills innocents has not from Jesus Christ.because He has teached people to love each other not to kill!

First, you need go there and lived there to see what is truly happening within and not be judgmental on people who are willing to give up their lives in believing in a cause. The sad part, what happened to all the money that SUPPOSED to help the people? Who's coffer did it end up? Surely, none of the people. I think you can research that one to see what had happened. Corruption of there own government is the source of the problem.

Next, there is no Arab nation in the region that will give up a bigger portion that is already shown on the map, of the desert land for this of group. Why is that? They simply have no love for them at all. They see this group as troublesome and politically incorrect. Then, whose land is it in the first place? Before replying, look at historical record from Abraham and move forward before replying to this statement. It will aid you with truth and not fanatical wisdom.

There will never be peace until Islam has a true prophet that is called by Allah [GOD]. I will be quite honest here, Islam as a whole will failed in the end because of this; by inside fanatics who claimed they are called by Allah when they are not. Until that happens, it will only grow worse until the world will declare them as a scourge to the world. If you don't believe this statement, then ask Allah HIMSELF.

If the state of Israel wants to protect itself from these fanatics, go for it. We do it here in America, from those who want to claimed this land for their own empire. Even if all the Arabs gave them tanks, weapons, aircraft, they will only be beaten until there is no place for them at all. Why? Go look at what the US did to Iraq. US was outgunned, out manned compared to the world's third largest army at the time. If not that, go back and look at how many times when the Arab league came against the Israel and they were beaten severally. What I am saying, it is lost cause and they simply need to get over it and personally remove those fanatics from the government and the land itself. Seek peace with the Jews and learn to get along with them as a people being under one roof. Then, they will blossom as rose in the desert. I promise it will happen if they seek this agenda.

I truly love the true Muslim who love Allah and walk in HIS footstep in seeking peace and showing love to humanity. As I love those who considered to be of the Tribe of Judah or called Jews. We are brothers and sisters, no matter the culture, country, or lineage.

[BenRaines]

Here is an interesting article from the Wall Street Journal:

Alan M. Dershowitz: Israel's Policy Is Perfectly 'Proportionate' - WSJ.com

[BenRaines]

Here is a book that I enjoyed reading.

Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands A Pagan Ethos

Book by Robert Kaplan.

[Hemidakota]

Ben...exactly what I am saying:

Until the world recognizes that Hamas is committing three war crimes -- targeting Israeli civilians, using Palestinian civilians as human shields, and seeking the destruction of a member state of the United Nations -- and that Israel is acting in self-defense and out of military necessity, the conflict will continue.

[Rico]

Those days Muslims were living with Jews and christians in peace.there were no war,no bloodshed,...

I know the area and I have a good friend of mine from Kirkuk. 100% Muslim. I was surprised that he wasn't anti-Israeli. We were talking about the area. His grandfather had lived in Palestine before the partition. Things were not nice for the Jews. The Arabs were discriminating against the Jews. Jewish businesses were regularly assaulted. As long as the Jews didn't do anything that the Arabs didn't like then there was peace.

I had an uncle who used to come over to our house when he was on a bender. He'd want peace and as long as he got everything his way, there was peace in the house. As soon as my dad told him to take his hands off my sister and to not steal the change out of our change jar, he would become violently angry and scream that we weren't letting him live in peace.

I often wonder if my uncle was an Arab. Arabs behave the same way towards others. As long as non-Arabs do everything to make Arabs happy, then there is peace. As soon as they start to demand that the raping and pillaging stop, Muslims claim that the non-Muslims do not want peace.

Palestine wouldn't have needed to be partitioned if there was real freedom for all religions in 1947.

Now I just have two questions:

1) If conditions are so bad in Gaza, (food, fuel, medicine shortages, etc) then why isn't the international condemnation just as loud against Eqypt? The Rafah border station is controlled Hamas and Eqypt. Eqypt has unilaterally closed it. Egypt doesn't allow medicine, food or other humanitarian supplies to cross into Gaza. (I know the answer to this one, Israel markets and products are better quality than Eqypt products and markets)

2) Why didn't Jordan and Egypt give the Palestinians a homeland when they controlled the West Bank and Gaza before the 1967 war? If Arab countries were unwilling to give the Palestinians a homeland, why should the Jews give them a homeland?

Edited January 2, 2009 by pam
Do not attack another poster.

[Hemidakota]

What is a greater sadness here, is the rouse of claiming if they commit a claimed act for Allah, they will go to paradise and receive x amount of virgins. Ugh! No! When committing homicide bombing, what lives that you MURDERED, you will have to ask forgiveness from each of those who lives you had affected. Then after through long repentance process and missionary work acceptance, you will be allowed into paradise. The surprise for them? Where they committed the crime, they are still there. The Spirit prison is here.... and there is no virgins awaiting for them. So much in reading the Koran.

[Traveler]

One question we should ask of each side in the conflict: Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Being alive and living should not be considered part of the problem - seeking revenge is without question the greatest part of the problem.

For those Muslims that are concerned with the treatment of Palestinians in what is called Israel then the world should look to them for examples of how religious tolerance should be handled from the tolerance they demonstrate in their home lands. For example – before the Citizens of Iran should criticize how Israel treats Muslims in Israel over the last 75 years they should look first to how the Muslims of Iran have treated the Jews in Iran over the last 75 years. The rhetoric from the leaders Israel and Iran about what should be done about the other is most telling who is the less tolerant.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

Lets not make this about Arabs. We are discussing Hamas, Palestine and Israel.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

Hamas = thugs

They do not represent Islam or the Muslim community.

[Rico]

I think we need to not make this about Muslims as well. This is about Palestinians Arabs, (Christian and Muslim) who support Hamas. Most Muslims are NOT Arabs. And most Arabs do not support Hamas.

But one extra point, Hemidakota, you are wrong. Hamas was ELECTED by the people of Gaza. So they DO represent Gaza Arabs. It's sad, but true.

[Hemidakota]

Not all people elect Hamas as a government in Gaza, as not all Arabs support Al Qaeda.

[Rico]

You are right, very few Arabs support Al Qaeda. It's usually the unintelligent, the uninformed and the easily coerced people who support those they shouldn't.

When I was in deep southern Thailand, I went to pay my phone bill shortly after 9/11. I was accosted by one Muslim wearing a Bin Laden shirt and he quickly called his friends. There were about 20 or 30 Thai Muslims ready to help do Bin Laden's duty. Seriously, I figured somebody was going to get killed. Police arrived and we all went down to the police station to sort things out. Two of the leaders of the local Muslim community came and talked to me and apologized for the actions of the one crazy guy. I will never forget what I was told. "The man is crazy, He listens to people he shouldn't listen to. We are sorry and please don't think all Muslims are like him."

I know that's the truth. I'd hate to be judged based on the actions of that crazy guy who is always holding that sign on Main Street that says the world will end tomorrow.

[Hemidakota]

Wow...you need to blog that experience. You are indeed blessed person.

[Rico]

Hemi, it got posted years ago on the net. It even made it into the papers in Thailand. I am smart enough to realize that even before I was a member, Heavenly Father was watching over me, even when I didn't deserve it.

[Islander]

Lets not make this about Arabs. We are discussing Hamas, Palestine and Israel.

Ben Raines

Yes!! The Pakistanis are not Arabs, neither the Iranians or the Egyptians. Indonesia is the largest Islamic-majority country and they are not Arabs. Ben is absolutely right; let's not confuse ethnicity with religion and geopolitics.

[jimuk]

The way i look upon the situation is that one or one hundred innocent deaths is to many, no excuses in gods eyes, if any rockets are fired indiscrimanatly by either side, and people are killed, then those people that caused these deaths will be held accountable by god.

[a-train]

Hamas = thugs

They do not represent Islam or the Muslim community.

And the state of Israel does not represent Judaism or the Jewish community either.

-a-train

[NeuroTypical]

Man, I want to take issue with a-Train's comment there, but then, I figure half of the Jews in Israel would agree with him.

Perhaps it's a sign of democracy that people can openly dislike their own government?