Here's a piece of deep(ish) doctrine to ponder...

[cjmaldrich]

I've been studying the New Testament as of late, as I am going through the program at the Institute to (hopefully) become a Seminary teacher. I came across something in my studies that I have been pondering for about a week now. I'm curious to see what other people's thoughts are on this particular verse of scripture. I'll provide my own interpretation of it also.

Jude 1:9. This is the only place in scripture where this particular encounter between Michael and Lucifer is mentioned. This is a contention about the body of Moses.

It also says that Michael did not bring a "railing accusation" against the devil, "... but said, The Lord rebuke thee." So in my attempt to liken the scriptures unto myself, I began pondering this and comparing the contentions between Satan and Lucifer to various contentions that I have (with people, things, thoughts, etc.) and came to the conclusion that this is a great example of not being judgmental.

It's important to throw in at this point that when I say judgmental, I mean taking upon yourself the authority to say who is going to spend eternity where. Not judgmental in the sense that we have to judge those around us to decide with whom to spend our time or things of that nature.

Maybe we can all learn something from Michael about being careful not to be judgmental or rebuke those people we come into contact with; even if they are clearly in the wrong. We can inform them of right and wrong, and truth and fiction. But in the end, they have to answer to God for the things that they do, not us. Leave rebuking up to the Lord.

Your thoughts?

[Dr T]

Side question. Didn't Michael and Satan have an incounter in the end times also?

[the_last_gunslinger]

I think everyone inadvertently passes judgment on those around them, despite their best efforts. Whenever you see someone acting in a manner that seems contrary to gospel standards, there always seems to be a little twinge, a thought about consequences that will befall them as a result. I know I'm guilty of that from time to time, even though I try to refrain from doing so.

The best way to avoid this is simply not think about it. Encourage righteous living, actions, etc. and leave judgment to those whose place it is to judge.

[Guest tomk]

I think you are correct. The Lord is the one who knows us best and will judge us mercifully, taking into account all the factors. We are to forgive all men. Period. Whether they repent or not.

[nimrod]

Dunno. :) I'm just glad to see someone (you) understand the distinction of "judging others" versus "evaluating their fruits" and acting accordingly. :) Those that have eyes...let them see. The original poster speaks wisdom.

This is an aside, but that is a big problem in today's world. You can't advise your kids or others about the company they keep without being told...."you're being judgmental!.....we shouldn't judge." We should not be damning people to anywhere....but we had better be "judging" their fruits....lest we be deceived. Ok...I'm off my soap box.

I guess it is all part of the politically correct spiral we are in.

[Dove]

CJ,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the New Testament, the JST translation is to judge righteous judgment~i.e. Matthew 7:2 and John 7:24, rather than not judging at all. For with what judgment we judge, we shall be judged.

I agree with you, it's not mine to decide whose going to hell, or what kind of punishment, or non punishment, a person is deserving of. It is mine to decide if I can remain around people who degrade me or do things that harm me. It is critical in these circumstances for me to keep a sense of clarity about what "love" is, and what it is not, for often I have consented to allow their abusive acts towards me to continue in the name of being kind to them, or in understanding them, or forgiving them, when to do so is just inappropriate. There are times when the best response is to walk away from a situation that is not in my best interest emotionally or physically.

That being said, it is so easy to harbor anger or ill will towards the people who have done these abusive things. So much harder to practice forgiveness at a safe distance. I think, for me, a key note of forgiveness is accountability for my own life and happiness. Not blaming another for my own happiness, or lack thereof. That's a hard one, I admit. Another hard one is not joying when I see them get there "just deserts" in life, their portion of pain.....

I believe relying on the atonement of Christ is so important in this process of forgiving others~It is comforting to know that along with being all merciful, He is also just and fair, with all of us.

[Justice]

Yes, we are given the Light of Christ so that we may make righteous judgments. Part of this is realizing that anyone can repent at any moment. If we condemn them ourselves it means we will not see them as a child of God and give them the opportunity to repent... which means we will not teach them the Gospel.

Moroni 7, which are the words of Mormon, is the best description of it I have found in scripture.

14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.

15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.

19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

We learn many things from these verses.

1) We are told to judge (it is given unto you to judge)

2) If something does not persuare us to believe in Christ it is evil and of the devil (whatsoever thing persuadeth men to ... believe not in Christ ..., then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil)

3) If something persuades us to believe in Christ it is "good" (every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God)

I think we have lowered the bar about the way we think of judging if something is evil. As I have stated in another thread, we think "it is good if it does not contain bad." There are 3 sides to every point: pro, con, and undecided. Those things that are pro Christ are good, everything else is bad.

Too often we think the undecided ones are good because they aren't bad.

This same method can be used to judge all things, and with this method you can be absolutely sure you have made a correct judgement.

As far as people are concerned, we are to make this same judgment, but not condemn. We are to love them and "seek to recover them" as part of our covenant we have made.

In the eyes of this scripture, the "good" it is speaking of is the "best" in good, better, and best that the prophets teach about. It is those things that persuade us to believe in Christ.

[Hemidakota]

Side question. Didn't Michael and Satan have an incounter in the end times also?

Correct...I awaiting for that day to arrive.

[Hemidakota]

I've been studying the New Testament as of late, as I am going through the program at the Institute to (hopefully) become a Seminary teacher. I came across something in my studies that I have been pondering for about a week now. I'm curious to see what other people's thoughts are on this particular verse of scripture. I'll provide my own interpretation of it also.

Jude 1:9. This is the only place in scripture where this particular encounter between Michael and Lucifer is mentioned. This is a contention about the body of Moses.

It also says that Michael did not bring a "railing accusation" against the devil, "... but said, The Lord rebuke thee." So in my attempt to liken the scriptures unto myself, I began pondering this and comparing the contentions between Satan and Lucifer to various contentions that I have (with people, things, thoughts, etc.) and came to the conclusion that this is a great example of not being judgmental.

It's important to throw in at this point that when I say judgmental, I mean taking upon yourself the authority to say who is going to spend eternity where. Not judgmental in the sense that we have to judge those around us to decide with whom to spend our time or things of that nature.

Maybe we can all learn something from Michael about being careful not to be judgmental or rebuke those people we come into contact with; even if they are clearly in the wrong. We can inform them of right and wrong, and truth and fiction. But in the end, they have to answer to God for the things that they do, not us. Leave rebuking up to the Lord.

Your thoughts?

It was answered on another post.

Repost:

Elder Bruce R. McConkie book, 'Doctrinal New Testament Commentary Volume-3, talked about this subject;

Quote:

"Michael Disputed About Body of Moses"

What is mighty Michael doing disputing with the devil over the body of Moses? Why does the foremost (under Christ) of all the sons of God contend about the passing of a prophet from this scene of action? That he did so, Jude tells us-parenthetically, almost casually-in the course of a severe and near merciless castigation of false teachers in the Church.

If the adulterers and sexual perverts of Sodom and Gomorrah suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, Jude says, why should these filthy dreamers who defile the truth think to escape? In their ignorance, as brute beasts, they corrupt the course of nature. They are condemned with Cain who slew Abel (Gen. 4:1-15), with Balaam who divined for hire (Num. 22, 23 and 2 4), and with Korah and his band who were slain for their rebellion against Moses and Aaron. (Num. 16.) And yet with it all, no railing accusations are intended, for even the archangel left condemnation to the Lord, as witness the affair about the body of Israel's lawgiver.

What then was this dispute between Michael and Satan all about? As it happens, this is our only scriptural allusion to it, although it seems perfectly clear that Jude had before him some other scriptures bearing on the point. Its use as an illustration here is manifestly intended to clarify rather than confuse the doctrine being taught, and the facts relative thereto must have been known to and understood by the saints of that day.

Commentators assume, and it surely must have been so, that Jude had before him and was quoting from a then current apocryphal book, "The Assumption of Moses," which has been preserved to us in fragmentary form only. This non-canonical work presents the doctrine that Moses was translated and taken up into heaven without tasting death. It appears to deal "with certain revelations made by Moses," and "with his disappearance in a cloud, so that his death was hid from human sight... Michael was commissioned to bury Moses. Satan opposed the burial on the ground (a) that he was the lord of matter and that accordingly the body should be rightfully handed over to him; (b) that Moses was a murderer, having slain the Egyptian. Michael having rebutted Satan's accusations proceeded to charge Satan with having instigated the serpent to tempt Eve. Finally, all opposition having been overcome, the assumption took place in the presence of Joshua and Caleb." Another "Hebrew Apocalypse tells of Moses' transformation into the form of a fiery angel and his ascent through the seven heavens." And yet another deals "with the temporary translation of Moses before his death into heaven... When translated into heaven the heavenly Jerusalem and the Temple were revealed to him, and he was told these would descend to earth after God had gathered Israel a second time from the ends of the earth." Included in these same works are a number of statements not found in the Bible but known by revelation through Joseph Smith to be true, as the fact of a pre-existence for all men and that "Moses was prepared from the foundation of the world to be the mediator of God's covenant with his people," and that "during his 'life Moses was Israel's intercessor with God." (R. H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, vol. 2, pp. 407-413.)

That Moses was in fact translated is confirmed by President Joseph Fielding Smith. After quoting, from the Prophet Joseph Smith, these words: "The Savior, Moses, and Elias [Elijah, in other words] gave the keys to Peter, James, and John, on the Mount when they were transfigured before him," President Smith says: "From that we understand why Elijah and Moses were preserved from death: because they had a mission to perform, and it had to be performed before the crucifixion of the Son of God, and it could not be done in the spirit. They had to have tangible bodies. Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection; therefore if any former prophets had a work to perform preparatory to the mission of the Son of God, or to the dispensation of the meridian of times, it was essential that they be preserved to fulfill that mission in the flesh. For that reason Moses disappeared from among the people and was taken up into the mountain, and the people thought he was buried by the Lord. The Lord preserved him, so that he could come at the proper time and restore his keys, on the heads of Peter, James, and John, who stood at the head of the dispensation of the meridian of time. He reserved Elijah from death that he might also come and bestow his keys upon the heads of Peter, James, and John and prepare them for their ministry.

"But, one says, the Lord could have waited until after his resurrection, and then they could have done it. It is quite evident, due to the fact that it did so occur, that it had to be done before; and there was a reason. There may have been other reasons, but that is one reason why Moses and Elijah did not suffer death in the flesh, like other men do." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 110-111.)

"Moses, Elijah, and Alma the younger, were translated. The Old Testament account that Moses died and was buried by the hand of the Lord in an unknown grave is an error. (Deut. 34:5-7.) It is true that he may have been 'buried by the hand of the Lord,' if that expression is a figure of speech which means that he was translated. But the Book of Mormon account, in recording that Alma 'was taken up by the Spirit,' says, 'the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself.' (Alma 45:18-19.) It should be remembered that the Nephites had the Brass Plates, and that they were the 'scriptures' which gave the account of Moses being taken by way of translation. As to Elijah, the account of his being taken in 'a chariot of fire . . . by a whirlwind into heaven,' is majestically set out in the Old Testament. (2 Kings 2.)" (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 805.)

It appears, then, that Satan-ever anxious to thwart the purposes of God-"disputed about the body of Moses," meaning that he sought the mortal death of Israel's lawgiver so that he would not have a tangible body in which to come-along with Elijah, who also was taken up without tasting death-to confer the keys of the priesthood upon Peter, James, and John.

[nimrod]

CJ,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in the New Testament, the JST translation is to judge righteous judgment~i.e. Matthew 7:2 and John 7:24, rather than not judging at all. For with what judgment we judge, we shall be judged.

You are spot on!

I am amazed at how many times people misuse that scripture. (not you, but others) I have reminded people of the JST translation only to have them misuse the scriputre a few months later. If Joseph wasn't a prophet, he was the wisest man of our time....... In my book, he was surely the former and possibly the latter. (wisest in terms of what matters)

[Just_A_Guy]

Correct...I awaiting for that day to arrive.

Based on D&C 128:20, I had always assumed that it already happened.

[Elgama]

Christian Courage: The Price of Discipleship

This talk from General Conference by Robert D Hales covers the various ways Jesus approached people

-Charley

[ldslesson]

CJ,

Good luck with the seminary thing. I taught for 5 years and it was great! Now I do a website with some lesson plans. The link is my signature at the bottom.

One talk that I love to use on this is from Elder M. Russell Ballard. He taught,

"I feel that judgment for sin is not always as cut-and-dried as some of us seem to think. The Lord said, “Thou shalt not kill.” Does that mean that every person who kills will be condemned, no matter the circumstances? I feel the Lord recognized differences in intent and circumstances: Was the person who took his life mentally ill? Was he or she so deeply depressed as to be unbalanced or otherwise emotionally disturbed? Was the suicide a tragic, pitiful call for help that went unheeded too long or progressed faster than the victim intended? Did he or she somehow not understand the seriousness of the act? Was he or she suffering from a chemical imbalance in their system that led to despair and a loss of self-control?

Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth.

When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth."

So, I think the best bet is to leave that final judgment to the Final Judge.

As far as earthly judging, a great talk is from Elder Dallin H Oaks. His comment:

"We must, of course, make judgments every day in the exercise of our moral agency, but we must be careful that our judgments of people are intermediate and not final. Thus, our Savior’s teachings contain many commandments we cannot keep without making intermediate judgments of people: “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine” (Matt. 7:6); “Beware of false prophets. … Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Matt. 7:15–16); and “Go ye out from among the wicked” (D&C 38:42).

We all make judgments in choosing our friends, in choosing how we will spend our time and our money, and, of course, in choosing an eternal companion. Some of these intermediate judgments are surely among those the Savior referenced when He taught that “the weightier matters of the law” include judgment (Matt. 23:23).

The scriptures not only command or contemplate that we will make intermediate judgments but also give us some guidance—some governing principles—on how to do so."

So there is a big distinction there! Sounds like you have found out what that is.

Edited January 13, 2009 by ldslesson

[NeuroTypical]

I figure one of Satan's greatest achievements, is how many good folk have bought into his false notion that God's commandment to forgive removes or satisfies God's commandment to judge righteous judgement.

A great Ensign talk on the subject from 1999: “Judge Not” and Judging - By Elder Dallin H. Oaks

LM

[Hemidakota]

Based on D&C 128:20, I had always assumed that it already happened.

Not yet...

[Just_A_Guy]

Not yet...

Not wanting to get too specific, Hemidakota, but are you basing that answer on the temple ceremony? Or on something else?

DYC 128:20 refers in passing to a confrontation between Michael and Satan in the middle of a chronological list of events that have all taken place:

--Moroni's visits at Cumorah

--The revelation to the 3 witnesses

--The confrontation between Michael and Satan on the banks of the Susquehanna River

--The restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood

(and going on to v. 21)

--The formation of the Church at the Whitmer home

--Sundry revelations from various heavenly beings, probably including the events surrounding the dedication of the Kirtland Temple

Why would an event that hasn't happened yet (and may not happen for centuries) be listed among five other events which all took place within a period of fifteen years?

If you base your position on your interpretation of the temple ceremony, I certainly have no desire to dissect that. But if there are other sources that have led you to this conclusion, I'd be interested to learn more about them.

[bodhigirlsmiles]

I know I'm guilty of that from time to time, even though I try to refrain from doing so.

you mean you are not perfect?!?!

The best way to avoid this is simply not think about it. Encourage righteous living, actions, etc. and leave judgment to those whose place it is to judge.

The Fourth (Buddhist) Precept

Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I am committed to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticise or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small.

ok, the buddhist will butt out of the christian conversation now....