Rlds Church President Resigns

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda+Dec 3 2004, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Dec 3 2004, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Dec 3 2004, 03:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Dec 3 2004, 11:51 AM

The nasties have come out again.

Back to topic>  I am glad he resigned. What if he didn't admit he was off and needed to step down?

Community of Christ web site:

"What circumstances led to Grant McMurray's resignation?

"Brother McMurray has indicated that he made some inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in personal and family life. These circumstances led him to resign from his position as president of the Community of Christ and request release from priesthood office."

No new news there, so I still don't understand it. When I make “inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in my personal and family life”, I don’t think about resigning my position in the church. I think about seeking forgiveness and listening to what the authorities in the Church say to help me. And this article doesn’t say that the authorities asked him to resign, it says that he chose to resign on his own. Why would he do that? Do you think they asked him to resign?

There is only speculation.

Heh, but I want to know the TRUTH! :)

[Blessed]

We see priesthood differently than you do, Ray.

It seems that any 18 year old boy can be an elder in your church. In our church there is a lengthy process in order to become priesthood. Callings are not by who wants it, but by who God has called and set apart. Under that calling... that mantle you have set yourself apart to be "holy" to lead, to teach, to exhort and to embody Jesus Christ.

When a priesthood member feels in his/her spirit that cannot uphold that mantle or if they feel for what ever reasons they no longer should act in that call... they remove themselves from it. Now the call will always be there, but they cannot particopate in that ministerial capacity.

There is much wisdom in doing just that. A spiritually sick person should not stand in the role of a minister... less the whole body become infected.

I understand this very intimately.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Blessed@Dec 3 2004, 04:12 PM

We see priesthood differently than you do, Ray.

It seems that any 18 year old boy can be an elder in your church. In our church there is a lengthy process in order to become priesthood. Callings are not by who wants it, but by who God has called and set apart. Under that calling... that mantle you have set yourself apart to be "holy" to lead, to teach, to exhort and to embody Jesus Christ.

When a priesthood member feels in his/her spirit that cannot uphold that mantle or if they feel for what ever reasons they no longer should act in that call... they remove themselves from it. Now the call will always be there, but they cannot particopate in that ministerial capacity.

There is much wisdom in doing just that. A spiritually sick person should not stand in the role of a minister... less the whole body become infected.

I understand this very intimately.

I understand this issue very intimately too, because I was once disciplined by church authorities. I was told not to exercise the priesthood I hold because I was no longer considered worthy, and once I went through my repentance process, I could then exercise the priesthood again… and I didn’t try to exercise the priesthood again until then because I was told that I shouldn’t. But I didn’t stop because “I decided” that I shouldn’t exercise it, I stopped because “I was told” that I shouldn’t exercise it. This situation seems to be entirely different, though, because he resigned his priesthood, instead of simply choosing not to exercise it, and he resigned himself, instead of someone else removing him from office. And I don’t understand why he would do that unless he was told to do that. Without that discipline, I think the only thing to do is to confess and repent. Why would anyone think any differently?

[Jenda]

Ray, not all repentings need to be done publically, and the aftermath of some problems may take a long time to heal. If the problem is bad enough that he feels it stands in the way of him fulfilling a calling, then it is right that he step aside.

[Ray]

The letter [his letter] further asks that the church release McMurray from the lay priesthood of the faith.

This is the part I don’t understand. I can understand that he didn’t feel worthy to exercise the priesthood, but to ask to be released from the priesthood is an entirely different matter. Why not continue to hold the priesthood and simply not exercise it? And why ask for these things, instead of making it known that he no longer felt worthy and then leaving the discipline up to the other priesthood leaders? Or in other words, why ask to be released, instead of simply agreeing with their possible decision that allowing himself to be released is the right thing to do?

Or in other words, shat kind of a message do you think this sends to other people who are hearing about it?

[Traveler]

I am saddened by events that have occurred within the RLDS faith but from what I understand of Jesus – we should lend support and love for all who struggle with their “personal” covenants. I for one am impress with one that will deal with such struggles without being compelled to do so.

Until this point there is nothing the former president of the RLDS had done that impresses more than this. I will stand by any man that tries within their heart to make something like this right. I do not need to know what in his personal life went wrong. To dwell on that issue I believe is a mistake.

Personally I would rather stand in battle against evil with one willing to admit their mistakes than one that lies about their mistakes. “And by this shall you know if a man has repented – if they will confess and forsake their sins”. Sorry I did not quote that exactly.

The Traveler

[Ray]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 3 2004, 05:50 PM

I am saddened by events that have occurred within the RLDS faith but from what I understand of Jesus – we should lend support and love for all who struggle with their “personal” covenants. I for one am impress with one that will deal with such struggles without being compelled to do so.

Until this point there is nothing the former president of the RLDS had done that impresses more than this. I will stand by any man that tries within their heart to make something like this right. I do not need to know what in his personal life went wrong. To dwell on that issue I believe is a mistake.

Personally I would rather stand in battle against evil with one willing to admit their mistakes than one that lies about their mistakes. “And by this shall you know if a man has repented – if they will confess and forsake their sins”. Sorry I did not quote that exactly.

The Traveler

I’m not confused by someone who will confess and forsake their sins. I’m confused by someone who would ask to be released from their priesthood. Why not admit that he didn’t feel worthy and then leave the decision up to the other priesthood leaders? Perhaps they would have told him, as I would have probably told him, that none of us are perfect and all the Lord expects from us is to confess and forsake our sins…unless we are told that something else is necessary because of the seriousness of our sins. But there is no indication that anybody said something like that, is there?

[Blessed]

Originally posted by Traveler@Dec 3 2004, 06:50 PM

I am saddened by events that have occurred within the RLDS faith but from what I understand of Jesus – we should lend support and love for all who struggle with their “personal” covenants. I for one am impress with one that will deal with such struggles without being compelled to do so.

Until this point there is nothing the former president of the RLDS had done that impresses more than this. I will stand by any man that tries within their heart to make something like this right. I do not need to know what in his personal life went wrong. To dwell on that issue I believe is a mistake.

Personally I would rather stand in battle against evil with one willing to admit their mistakes than one that lies about their mistakes. “And by this shall you know if a man has repented – if they will confess and forsake their sins”. Sorry I did not quote that exactly.

The Traveler

Thank you for your kind words, Traveler. You are a blessed person to have such a compassionate and understanding heart.

[Blessed]

Ray, it is a personal choice. WHy can't you just accept it as such?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray+Dec 3 2004, 02:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Dec 3 2004, 02:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Dec 3 2004, 11:51 AM

The nasties have come out again.

Back to topic>  I am glad he resigned. What if he didn't admit he was off and needed to step down?

Community of Christ web site:

"What circumstances led to Grant McMurray's resignation?

"Brother McMurray has indicated that he made some inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in personal and family life. These circumstances led him to resign from his position as president of the Community of Christ and request release from priesthood office."

No new news there, so I still don't understand it. When I make “inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in my personal and family life”, I don’t think about resigning my position in the church. I think about seeking forgiveness and listening to what the authorities in the Church say to help me. And this article doesn’t say that the authorities asked him to resign, it says that he chose to resign on his own. Why would he do that? Do you think they asked him to resign?

Schunkies Ray,

If you committed adultery, you couldn't take the sacrament let alone preside over, say, the Elder's Quorum. Go ahead and repent but you would be yanked out of your calling - and if not excommunicated then you would be put on double secret probation... disfellowshiped. Happens all the time.

[Traveler]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 3 2004, 05:55 PM

I’m not confused by someone who will confess and forsake their sins. I’m confused by someone who would ask to be released from their priesthood. Why not admit that he didn’t feel worthy and then leave the decision up to the other priesthood leaders? Perhaps they would have told him, as I would have probably told him, that none of us are perfect and all the Lord expects from us is to confess and forsake our sins…unless we are told that something else is necessary because of the seriousness of our sins. But there is no indication that anybody said something like that, is there?

Not everyone feels the same going throuh the repentance process. Some people have a harder time forgiving themself than they do others. Some will forgive themself but will not forgive others.

Sometimes I feel like the goal of a Christian should be to confort the afflicted and afflict those that confortable. Sometimes I think it is good just to offer confort.

Some have heavy feelings of guilt when they pass through the repentance process because of their possition or enlightment and want to make a 10 fold payment as part of their repentance. Some do not feel as guilty and do not want to pay any more than they have to. Personally I am more impressed with those that are willing to pay some extra - I just think they have cought the vision better.

Yet I also believe that the time must come to exercise faith and hope in the Christ that his atonement pays what ever debt or guilt remains after our best efforts. Both for ourselves and others.

The Traveler

[Snow]

I have three thoughts:

1. The CoC Church indicates that in the absence of a president, the remainder of the presidency will run the Church.

Didn't the RLDS Church always make a point of where there is now president, there is no presidency?

2. It was also indicated that the 12 Apostles may wind up choosing a new president, maybe in 2006.

Wasn't it a big sticking point with the RLDS that the Quorum did NOT have the authority to appoint a president - hence the opposition to BY, appointed by the 12.

3. Eight years ago President Wallace resigned. Now that President McMurray has resigned he says that for the first time in a long time, he has nothing to do, no duties, and that he is looking forward to the next phase of his life.

There is such a divide between the current RLDS (CoCC) and the LDS Church. Could anyone imagine Spencer Kimball retiring from being prophet or Gordon B. Hinckley looking for the next phase of his life. It is not a criticism per se, just a striking difference in how Mormons view the faith.

[Randy Johnson]

Originally posted by Snow@Dec 4 2004, 01:05 AM

I have three thoughts:

1. The CoC Church indicates that in the absence of a president, the remainder of the presidency will run the Church.

Didn't the RLDS Church always make a point of where there is now president, there is no presidency?

2. It was also indicated that the 12 Apostles may wind up choosing a new president, maybe in 2006.

Wasn't it a big sticking point with the RLDS that the Quorum did NOT have the authority to appoint a president - hence the opposition to BY, appointed by the 12.

3. Eight years ago President Wallace resigned. Now that President McMurray has resigned he says that for the first time in a long time, he has nothing to do, no duties, and that he is looking forward to the next phase of his life.

There is such a divide between the current RLDS (CoCC) and the LDS Church. Could anyone imagine Spencer Kimball retiring from being prophet or Gordon B. Hinckley looking for the next phase of his life. It is not a criticism per se, just a striking difference in how Mormons view the faith.

Blessed,

Just a couple of thoughts. First, my heart aches for you and the other members of the CoC. I cannot fathom how I would feel if we were to struggle through such an ordeal. A few years back...we had a Stake leader who succumbed to temptation. I was called into the Bishopric by him. It shook and shocked me to the core. But, the Lord loves him as much as anybody....back then, as well as now. He has made his way back into full activity....his marriage is still intact...and I admire him for his steadfastness and courage in his time of adversity and trial.

I would like to echo my feelings....that I feel Pres. McMurray did the right and proper thing. He was striving to be true to himself and to the Lord. In his own way...I believe he was attempting to keep the Church pure and unspotted. I admire him for his courage.

Tamara....I just kinda want to correct you about the "just about any 18 yr old can be an Elder" comment. That notion is spread around in the RLDS/CoC...and has been for decades. It simply is not true. I explained this in detail on the CoC board. Suffice it to say...I have TWO boys..one 22...the other 19...neither one of them are Elders....sadly to say. There is nothing automatic in receiving the Priesthood...or advancing in the PH. There are some guidelines the Bishops follow...but they are just that...guidelines. The calls still come through revelation through the Presiding High Priest in the ward and Stake....which is the Bishop and Stake President.

I have just one thought about what "generally" is happening now in the CoC. Simply put...and I dont mean this to be harsh....but, it is just another round of "this is it....this is when the Lord is gonna make his move to bring the Church together....or this is when the "one mighty and strong" is going to come forward and put the Church in order" etc.

This has been going on since JSIII. Every President in the RLDS church has had some degree of chaos surrounding him. Everytime something momentous like this happens....everyone gets all excited and the grapevine starts chattering about "who" or "what" is going to happen. Its just always chaos. No other way to describe it. Its like the RLDS/Restorationists/CoC thrive on it.

As I see it....it is yet another crystal clear example of why the Lord "allowed" Apostolic succession to become the method by which he would control who became his Prophet. There is no confusion...no angst....no politicing...there is no need or possibility for speculation. The path is clear....the path is straight.

The Lord's House is NOT a house of confusion. How can this one point be made any more clear than in this latest event in the CoC?

I have many wonderful friends in all the Restoration factions here in Indep. Mo. I was able to meet BLESSED during their conference. She is without doubt...one of the sweetest and most congenial and saintly women I have met. She was gracious...and kind...and made me feel most welcome. The CoC is chocked full of these types of wonderful people.

But....having said that, it can not....erase the fact that the RLDS/CoC has been in a constant state of confusion and upheaval since its inception. Confusion and upheaval is simply not part of the Lord's plan for his church.

In the weeks to come we will see many comments about how Wally B. Smith may come back and designate a successor...or how he himself may repent and lead the church once more....and if that happens, how that might open the door for the Restorationists to be able to come back into the church and "save it" if you will...and restore it back to its "Restoration distinctives".

We will hear all of this...and much more. The end result will be as it has always been.....more confusion and upheaval.

I sincerely hope....that whatever path the CoC finds itself on...that its wonderful members can eventually find some measure of peace and comfort.

randy

[john doe]

Originally posted by Snow+Dec 3 2004, 11:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Dec 3 2004, 11:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@Dec 3 2004, 02:14 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Amillia@Dec 3 2004, 11:51 AM

The nasties have come out again.

Back to topic>  I am glad he resigned. What if he didn't admit he was off and needed to step down?

Community of Christ web site:

"What circumstances led to Grant McMurray's resignation?

"Brother McMurray has indicated that he made some inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in personal and family life. These circumstances led him to resign from his position as president of the Community of Christ and request release from priesthood office."

No new news there, so I still don't understand it. When I make “inappropriate choices while encountering significant struggles in my personal and family life”, I don’t think about resigning my position in the church. I think about seeking forgiveness and listening to what the authorities in the Church say to help me. And this article doesn’t say that the authorities asked him to resign, it says that he chose to resign on his own. Why would he do that? Do you think they asked him to resign?

Schunkies Ray,

If you committed adultery, you couldn't take the sacrament let alone preside over, say, the Elder's Quorum. Go ahead and repent but you would be yanked out of your calling - and if not excommunicated then you would be put on double secret probation... disfellowshiped. Happens all the time.

Ray,

Snow is right on this one, I believe. If a bishop in the LDS church were to say, commit adultery, once he confessed his sin, he would most likely be removed, and in many cases I have heard of, he would likely be at least disfellowshipped if not excommunicated. The higher up the leadership chain a person is, typically the harsher the "punishment" for the big sins. I have never heard of a case in the LDS church where a high leader has confessed to a serious sin and that he has kept his leadership status. Can you point us to an instance?

Paul Dunn's leadership callings went away for doing not much more than trying to pass off stories he was telling as being absolutely true. I haven't heard much from him lately, but he dropped off the leadership roles pretty quickly. He may be doing something in the church today, but it is probably pretty low-profile in nature.

I admit I don't know much about how the RLDS/CoC work their priesthood, but if the members of that church here are representing it correctly, it seems to me that their former president may have been taking steps to repent of whatever sins he believes he has committed. I would understand that action as an admirable one.

I don't have much understanding of how the Catholics run their priesthood either, but it seems to me that it takes a pretty serious sin, such as being convicted of murder, for one of them to be asked to hand in their preisthood card. I would much prefer someone to act as McMurray did than how most Catholic priests handle their own sins.

[Blessed]

Randy,

I appreciate your post... thank you.

[StrawberryFields]

I admire this president for taking this action. I believe that by doing this he is a great example to many. The example is to stand up and be accountable for your sins no matter what the cost might be. Apparently, he feels whatever he did he could not stay in his current position. He made a mistake, and by stepping down he show his respect and commitment for what he believes in. I am sure that it would have taken less courage to have stayed in his calling. I am grateful that the sins I have made in my lifetime are not as visible as his are. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone"...

[Blessed]

Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Dec 5 2004, 10:06 PM

I admire this president for taking this action. I believe that by doing this he is a great example to many. The example is to stand up and be accountable for your sins no matter what the cost might be. Apparently, he feels whatever he did he could not stay in his current position. He made a mistake, and by stepping down he show his respect and commitment for what he believes in. I am sure that it would have taken less courage to have stayed in his calling. I am grateful that the sins I have made in my lifetime are not as visible as his are. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone"...

Amen there SF. While it is a sad time for many of us in our church, we see and believe that God will take this and make something good out of it. That if our hearts our sincere and ready... God can shape and mold us in to the Body of Christ He ordained us to be.

All things work for the good...

Thank you, SF

[Deb]

I'm a little confused. This IS a SLC LDS talk forum? Right?

[john doe]

Originally posted by Deb@Dec 5 2004, 11:17 PM

I'm a little confused. This IS a SLC LDS talk forum? Right?

Usually, but this thread is about RLDS. Does it bother you?

[StrawberryFields]

Originally posted by Deb@Dec 5 2004, 11:17 PM

I'm a little confused. This IS a SLC LDS talk forum? Right?

Deb,

This is just not a SLC LDSTalk. This site is part of the WWW and so we share it with the whole web.

We are open to many discussion as long as they don't break certain rules. We are not a closed site only welcoming those of the LDS faith.

Does that help at all?

[Ray]

As I said before, I didn’t think about resigning my position in the church when I committed serious sins. I thought about seeking forgiveness and listening to what the authorities in the Church said to help me. Why wouldn’t anyone else do the same?

In other words, why would anyone advocate what President McMurray has done? Does anyone here really advocate that other Christian leaders resign their priesthood responsibilities after yielding to temptation?

I think resigning priesthood responsibilities is like resigning other responsibilities that men have. Would anyone advocate that a father resign his responsibilities as a father after yielding to serious sins? Or would anyone advocate that a policeman resign his responsibilities as a policeman after yielding to serious sins? I would hope not!

I would hope that a father who had committed a serious sin would seek forgiveness and turn himself in to the authorities, to see what the authorities would have him to do to obtain forgiveness. I wouldn’t advocate that he resign from his responsibilities to be a father. Even if the father did something serious enough to merit a loss or restriction of his duties as father, even a loss of custody over his children, I would hope that father would want to continue to do as much as he could to guide his children and set an example for them, even in weakness. Or in other words, I would hope he would appeal to the authorities and seek their help to remedy the situation instead of deciding for himself that he should quit being a father.

The same goes for a policeman who has committed a serious sin, or serious violation of law. I would hope that he or she would seek forgiveness and turn himself in to his authorities to see what the authorities would have him to do to obtain forgiveness. I wouldn’t advocate that he resign from his responsibilities as a policeman. Even if he did something serious enough to merit a loss or restriction of his duties, or even a suspension of his authority, I would hope that he would appeal to the authorities and seek their help to remedy the situation instead of deciding for himself that he quit being a policeman. And of course, I’m not advocating that a policeman in that position do anything improper or not within his rights.

Doesn’t anyone understand what I’m saying?

In other words, President McMurray asked his fellow authorities to take his authority from him instead of asking what he could do to receive forgiveness. Or in other words, he gave up, because he sought and is probably still seeking to avoid the authority that was given to him. Is that really an example that you want set for others? After making certain mistakes you should give up?

And btw, if anyone has any information that would indicate that he didn’t give up, or that he was asked to resign his position, I would love to hear it. I’m going strictly by the news reports indicating that he is the one who chose to remove himself from authority, which make him sound like a quitter.

[Jenda]

Ray, let's approach it from a slightly different POV.

When you are in the midst of sinning, can you effectively minister to others? When you have been soooo hurt by someone or something that your spirit is in pain, can you effectively minister to others?

What Grant McMurray requested is just time away from his priesthood responsibilities to heal the broken relationships in his life that prevent him from being an effective minister. He did not resign his priesthood, he asked for a temporary releasing, something that is not uncommon in our church while the individual struggles to get his life back in order.

[Blessed]

Did I miss something, Ray? Where did he ask someone to remove his priesthood from him? He didn't that I know of... like Jenda said... she resigned from it temporarily. We, the general public, do not know for the specific reasoning why he resigned and IMO we don't need to know. We don't know where his heart is in the repentance process and if that had anything to do with his resignation or not. Don't speculate or conjecture about this... nothing can be more painful... I assure you of that.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Call me an incorrigible gossip, but I want to know specifically what the man did. If the idea is to confess your sin, confessing to "inappropriate personal choices" doesn't cut it. If I were confessing to adultery (which, from the phrasing of Mr. McMurray's statement, I suspect is the failing at issue), confessing to "inappropriate personal choices" isn't much of a confession at all. We've all made "inappropriate personal choices."

[Ray]

Originally posted by Ray@Dec 3 2004, 05:49 PM

The letter [his letter] further asks that the church release McMurray from the lay priesthood of the faith.

This is the part I don’t understand. I can understand that he didn’t feel worthy to exercise the priesthood, but to ask to be released from the priesthood is an entirely different matter. Why not continue to hold the priesthood and simply not exercise it? And why ask for these things, instead of making it known that he no longer felt worthy and then leaving the discipline up to the other priesthood leaders? Or in other words, why ask to be released, instead of simply agreeing with their possible decision that allowing himself to be released is the right thing to do?

Or in other words, shat kind of a message do you think this sends to other people who are hearing about it?

Did you overlook this post from me, Blessed. You seemed to reply to it but maybe you didn't understand what I was saying.