God's hand in all things and Agency

[applepansy]

I know that God's hand is in ALL things. I also know that He will not do anything to restrict or take away our agency.

Does this mean that God put President Obama in the positioin of president? Or, did God allow our choice in the election to prevail?

I believe that it was our choice as a people through the Election process that decides who is our President. I do not believe God will restrict our agency in this decision or any other. I also believe there are always consequences of our choices, good or bad, and in that God will show his will.

What are your thoughts?

applepansy

[deseretgov]

Good question. I think God sees the future. I think God would allow events to happen that would bring inspiration to people to vote a certain way. They still have their choice to vote. But God gives people inspiration.

[bmy-]

It's just my opinion.. but I think He takes a mostly hands-off approach. We are his hands so to speak.. and if we don't do it.. it doesn't get done. We are in charge of this kingdom.. and it prospers or suffers in respect to the work we do here.

[Hemidakota]

I know that God's hand is in ALL things. I also know that He will not do anything to restrict or take away our agency.

Does this mean that God put President Obama in the positioin of president? Or, did God allow our choice in the election to prevail?

I believe that it was our choice as a people through the Election process that decides who is our President. I do not believe God will restrict our agency in this decision or any other. I also believe there are always consequences of our choices, good or bad, and in that God will show his will.

What are your thoughts?

applepansy

The world chooses for itself on who shall represent them. It is not by choice of Lord but we can hope, that any man that resides in that position would strive to do right. It failed in Clinton when he had every opportunity to make a better a America. It failed with Bush as he began to see himself as the only right person when in fact, he was wrong on many occasion as his own cabinet stated and finally gave up and quick. I expect the same from telestial beings and nothing more. I do not great successes to last forever when giving that much worldly power. I only expect the next two decades as the final draw down of the American nation.

I believe it is time for a voting change to our society and finally put away the electoral college.

[Hemidakota]

Good question. I think God sees the future. I think God would allow events to happen that would bring inspiration to people to vote a certain way. They still have their choice to vote. But God gives people inspiration.

Did you see my other post concerning the Mexico government?

[applepansy]

I appreciate your opinions. thanks for replying.

Hemi, what would you put in place of the electoral college to counter balance mob rule?

applepansy

[Dove]

Hi Applepansy,

What a difficult topic! So where does our agency end, and God's hand begin?! While you are applying this to who was elected president, I'm applying this to life as a whole.

While in many ways I agree with bmy and Hemi, that much of what is given to us is hingent upon our agency, to me it is all still such a gift! Yes, it is a fine line between agency and God's grace, imo.....

I definately do not agree that we are "in charge" of this kingdom altogether. I believe that we are in a promised land, a blessed land that is thriving because of the Hand of God. However, I do not dismiss that God may have placed people here at the right time who would make the kind of choices to cause the land to thrive, LOL. Still, I attribute it to God's omniscience and knowing who to place where to make the choices needed to bring His purposes forward.

Doctrine and Covenants 59:21 might be helpful here: "And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is His wrath kindled, save those who confess not His hans in all things and obey not His commandments."

Maybe it's a combination of the two....

[Moksha]

If God did vote the Democratic ticket last November, it only held sway Salt Lake County and the rest of the country.

[applepansy]

Hi Applepansy,

What a difficult topic! So where does our agency end, and God's hand begin?! While you are applying this to who was elected president, I'm applying this to life as a whole.

While in many ways I agree with bmy and Hemi, that much of what is given to us is hingent upon our agency, to me it is all still such a gift! Yes, it is a fine line between agency and God's grace, imo.....

I definately do not agree that we are "in charge" of this kingdom altogether. I believe that we are in a promised land, a blessed land that is thriving because of the Hand of God. However, I do not dismiss that God may have placed people here at the right time who would make the kind of choices to cause the land to thrive, LOL. Still, I attribute it to God's omniscience and knowing who to place where to make the choices needed to bring His purposes forward.

Doctrine and Covenants 59:21 might be helpful here: "And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is His wrath kindled, save those who confess not His hans in all things and obey not His commandments."

Maybe it's a combination of the two....

Dove, I appreciate your comments. You're right. . . this is a difficult topic. But I'm known in my family for always picking out the difficult parts of anything and everything.

I agree this topis should be applied to life as a whole, and not just the current political circumstances. Current politics was just on my mind yesterday. But, this has been something I've thought about a lot.

A whole world of people pray. And often they pray for different and opposing positions. A really good example is in the move "The Other Side of Heaven", when John Groberg is in the middle of the ocean and there is no wind. One of his counselors says "We are praying for a head wind, maybe there are others who are praying for a tail wind. Maybe we need to pray for a good wind." After they prayed the counselor got in the smaller boat and rowed John Groberg to where he needed to me. . . he said "I can be God's wind today."

I often hear people praise God when their prayers are answered the way they want. I don't often hear people praise God when the answer is not what they want or expect.

I appreciate the scripture you quoted. Its so important to acknowledge the Lord's hand in all things. Its the tough times or when we dont' get what we want that we are truly tested. Its the tough times that teach us and prepare us to be worthy to return to live with our Heavenly Father. Its when the answer is No or Not Yet that we need to praise God the most.

I'm going to start praying for "a good wind."

applepansy

Edited January 21, 2009 by applepansy

[beefche]

I was thinking of this topic the other day. I was speaking to a Christian friend who was telling me of a few families in his congregation that have had severe losses while doing "good" things. One person actually died while being baptized--an electrical current went through the water and killed him. We discussed how it is so hard to understand something like that...he was doing something God commanded, yet lost his life. I made the comment that rain falls on all--good and bad. It is up to us to respond appropriately to the event.

I'm not convinced that God is the root of all the seemingly "bad" things that happen to people. I simply don't know if some of the events in our life are punishment by God. I do believe in agency and that many, many events are results of consequences by people exercising their agency.

But one thing that I try to do. I try to give God praise for any good in my life (and give praise for those rare times when I recognize that bad things are simply a challenge or way to grow). I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to God--I'll give him praise for any good in my life and attribute any bad to consequences of actions by me or another.

[Guest tomk]

I know that God's hand is in ALL things. I also know that He will not do anything to restrict or take away our agency.

Does this mean that God put President Obama in the positioin of president? Or, did God allow our choice in the election to prevail?

I believe that it was our choice as a people through the Election process that decides who is our President. I do not believe God will restrict our agency in this decision or any other. I also believe there are always consequences of our choices, good or bad, and in that God will show his will.

What are your thoughts?

applepansy

I don't think that Obama getting elected is evidence that it was God's will. Or even the actual will of the people. Perhaps Obama is just the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps more to the point, and a more relevant question is:

Is Obama seeking God's will as he serves the American people?

Only Obama knows the answer to this. I hope he is.

God does step in under certain conditions. When people have ripened in iniquity. Or when a ruler is evil and is a burden to his people (King Noah) and "causes" them to sin also.

Like the rest of us, Obama draws breath at the sufferance of that God who gives us life.

[bytor2112]

Perhaps Obama is just the lesser of two evils.

......or the beneficiary of an economic meltdown in October.

Good question. I think God sees the future. I think God would allow events to happen that would bring inspiration to people to vote a certain way. They still have their choice to vote. But God gives people inspiration.

He leads and guides those who choose to seek his will and listen......he sends Prophets to help us navigate the seemingly complex decisions like abortion, gay marriage, etc......and yet many still ignore and choose to decide and justify there decisions based on the world's standards.

[deseretgov]

Did you see my other post concerning the Mexico government?

No I don't think so.

He leads and guides those who choose to seek his will and listen......he sends Prophets to help us navigate the seemingly complex decisions like abortion, gay marriage, etc......and yet many still ignore and choose to decide and justify there decisions based on the world's standards.

Great post!

[Dove]

Dove, I appreciate your comments. You're right. . . this is a difficult topic. But I'm known in my family for always picking out the difficult parts of anything and everything.

I agree this topis should be applied to life as a whole, and not just the current political circumstances. Current politics was just on my mind yesterday. But, this has been something I've thought about a lot.

A whole world of people pray. And often they pray for different and opposing positions. A really good example is in the move "The Other Side of Heaven", when John Groberg is in the middle of the ocean and there is no wind. One of his counselors says "We are praying for a head wind, maybe there are others who are praying for a tail wind. Maybe we need to pray for a good wind." After they prayed the counselor got in the smaller boat and rowed John Groberg to where he needed to me. . . he said "I can be God's wind today."

I often hear people praise God when their prayers are answered the way they want. I don't often hear people praise God when the answer is not what they want or expect.

I appreciate the scripture you quoted. Its so important to acknowledge the Lord's hand in all things. Its the tough times or when we dont' get what we want that we are truly tested. Its the tough times that teach us and prepare us to be worthy to return to live with our Heavenly Father. Its when the answer is No or Not Yet that we need to praise God the most.

I'm going to start praying for "a good wind."

applepansy

I was thinking of this topic the other day. I was speaking to a Christian friend who was telling me of a few families in his congregation that have had severe losses while doing "good" things. One person actually died while being baptized--an electrical current went through the water and killed him. We discussed how it is so hard to understand something like that...he was doing something God commanded, yet lost his life. I made the comment that rain falls on all--good and bad. It is up to us to respond appropriately to the event.

I'm not convinced that God is the root of all the seemingly "bad" things that happen to people. I simply don't know if some of the events in our life are punishment by God. I do believe in agency and that many, many events are results of consequences by people exercising their agency.

But one thing that I try to do. I try to give God praise for any good in my life (and give praise for those rare times when I recognize that bad things are simply a challenge or way to grow). I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to God--I'll give him praise for any good in my life and attribute any bad to consequences of actions by me or another. Quote from prior thread by Beefche

Hi Applepansy, Beefche,

AP, thanks so much for opening up this thread, while this is a "hard topic," it's one I've given so much thought to throughout my life, why opposition in all things, Beefche, why the good and the ill?

Of course, this takes us back to the garden of eden, and the necessity of Adam and Eve in partaking the forbidden fruit in order for mankind to come into the world....."Adam fell that man might be, and men are that they might have joy...." The fact that this verse in ensconsed in the chapter on opposition is not lost on me....and that opposition is necessary for our agency, growth and "glory" if I might say in coming home to our Heavenly Parents....

Hard concepts for me to learn due to the issues I was dealing with from my childhood at the time. I will always be grateful to a dear friend who showed up in that hour to be there and "help" me learn these things. And my, how it did seem that God's hand was in all things in those hours of my life. Very pointedly so~

I was once told in a priesthood blessing years ago that I had agreed in the pre-existance to have diabetes here in earth life~which makes sense to me. I believe that we all were given choice beforehand to experience the trials that we now have~Maybe given a rough draft as to what we would go through, in order to preserve our agency as to the pain we would experience. Just my opinion though. As my friend would say to me, there are no accidents.....

I also believe that pain is necessary in the great plan of salvation....that trials and opposition are for our good and benefit in the end. NOT that we would seek after them, that's not our place, neither to hold negativity towards our great creator for placing us in an existence that can and will inflict this upon us, but to be grateful for all things to teach us more deeply who we are as children of God, and to confess His hand in all things....for making us who we are.

I don't think there are accidents in this life, that all things are directed, and done according to God's will, even if it is the giving of consequences to our choices and use of agency in direct conflict with His commandments.....I strongly believe God already knows the end from the beginning, and plans accordingly.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Dove
Clarifying Beefche's Thread

[Hemidakota]

Again, the Savior has no hands in this election nor in any future politics that has no weight for the eternal reward. It is called AGENCY. As my beloved companion stated, "let the world have its time." I concur with revelatory statement. It only brings us closer to the end where we can again have a theocratic government, which is operated by the Lord Himself and not man. Now, if anyone can prove me wrong, before the casting the stones, please take a good look at the Nephite government in its last days. Did the Lord have the robbers take charge of the government? Or was it the Nephites own choices?

There is nothing hard here to see. It is our own observation and lack of attuning to the Spirit is clearly the problem. As one day, when the Anti-Christ comes knocking, many in the church will fall away and join with him. He will have the power of influence over the weak minds and many will fall prey. Now, it is no different what we are seeing today; being influential to the masses not for GOD but for themselves.

[Dove]

Again, the Savior has no hands in this election nor in any future politics that has no weight for the eternal reward. It is called AGENCY. As my beloved companion stated, "let the world have its time." I concur with revelatory statement. It only brings us closer to the end where we can again have a theocratic government, which is operated by the Lord Himself and not man. Now, if anyone can prove me wrong, before the casting the stones, please take a good look at the Nephite government in its last days. Did the Lord have the robbers take charge of the government? Or was it the Nephites own choices?

There is nothing hard here to see. It is our own observation and lack of attuning to the Spirit is clearly the problem. As one day, when the Anti-Christ comes knocking, many in the church will fall away and join with him. He will have the power of influence over the weak minds and many will fall prey. Now, it is no different what we are seeing today; being influential to the masses not for GOD but for themselves.

Hey Hemi,

Sorry, I think we are talking about two totally different things, I wasn't talking about the government at all in my prior thread; but rather about my personal experience of life.

I agree with you, I think Hitler, and the Gadianton Robbers were all about man's agency, not God's will....However, I also think God is amongst the victims of these evil leaders, and that He never leaves His people alone....

PS, while we may deny Him all we want, we are still in His hands for Him to do with us as He sees fit, when He sees fit...

Edited January 22, 2009 by Dove
for the PS

[Hemidakota]

Actually HE does leave them based on there choices. This when you can see that there is no Spirit about them. I did enough research on what I perceives are 'thugs' of the world and those who considered 'Sons of Perdition', only to see the same pattern among them - NO SPIRIT - NO LIGHT.

Now, I can say with out doubt, GOD is the author of CHAOS. Many in the church will spit, jump up and down, rant and rave, shouting...NO. Nibley onces stated this and he was right.

[Hemidakota]

Let me apologize Dove if I sound harsh in my posting. What I have seen lately, there shall be change coming that our country needs some humbleness. I sit and cry, when viewing our future. As there is now tears in my eyes of those who fought gallantry and died to ensure we can have this day. Wasted by a few telestial beings who only to seek their own five-seconds of worldly fame vice on doing good for the country and the world.

Again, thanks for posting such quantifying threads.

[applepansy]

I don't think that Obama getting elected is evidence that it was God's will. Or even the actual will of the people. Perhaps Obama is just the lesser of two evils.

Perhaps more to the point, and a more relevant question is:

Is Obama seeking God's will as he serves the American people?

Only Obama knows the answer to this. I hope he is.

God does step in under certain conditions. When people have ripened in iniquity. Or when a ruler is evil and is a burden to his people (King Noah) and "causes" them to sin also.

Like the rest of us, Obama draws breath at the sufferance of that God who gives us life.

I agree Tom. In the case of the election I believe it was the people's choice as far as that goes, understanding the lesser of two evils dilemna.

I hope Obama is seeking God's will. I can only pray that he will.

Thanks for your thoughts Tom.

Edited January 22, 2009 by applepansy
typos

[applepansy]

Dove, I agree that we had a choice before we came to this earth regarding what we would experience here. This is a personal belief and I not found scripture to back it up. I do have personal experiences and the experiences of a family member which are too sacred to discuss online. My point is that I believe our Agency started before we came to earth.

Believing that God knows everything just reaffirms to me that we had a choice. As a parent of four children, as their mother I know pretty closely what they will or won't do in a certain circumstance. I base this on their character and personalities as they were growing up. They rarely surprise me, disappoint me? yes. . .but rarely surprise. If it can be that was for an imperfect, fallible Mom, how much more it must be for our Heavenly Father who knows us in the depths of our hearts.

As a parent I can look back at some of my rough times growing up and I cringe knowing the heartache I caused my Heavenly Father. But as a parent, I rejoice knowing He loves us regardless of our choices and because of the law of Agency (a priceless gift) we grow through the consequences of choices. Sometimes those consequences are the result of someone else's choices, which is a hard circumstance.

Hemi, I think what this nation in the future will go through is the consequences of the choices of an unrighteous people. As a nation, a people, we have been embrassing more and more evils. The ones trying to live the Law's of God will suffer right along those who didn't, those who thumbed their noses at God's laws. (there are many scriptural examples to warn us of this)

I'm feel like I'm kind of rambling. . . you can see I've thought about this from all angles.

My point is. . . we can only decide for ourselves whom we shall follow. . . God or the world. Either way we need to rejoice in whatever happens because it will be for our own good. I think that applies to this election in many ways, too.

applepansy