Signs of the True Church

[prisonchaplain]

Maxel, if I'm not mistaken, the OP did suggest that the 16/17 points were signs of the true church, allegedly offered originally by someone who had scientifically studied the Bible to come up with core essentials. It is on that ground that we non-members see deficiencies and oddities. If a leader of your church said, "Here are 17 of our most basic teachings, and some references to them, found in the Bible..." my eyebrows would not have raised much at all.

[sakuragirl]

Maxel, if I'm not mistaken, the OP did suggest that the 16/17 points were signs of the true church, allegedly offered originally by someone who had scientifically studied the Bible to come up with core esseentials Ifficiencies and oddities. . It is on that ground that we non-members see d a leader of your church said, "Here are 17 of our most basic teachings, and some references to them, found in the Bible..." my eyebrows would not have raised much at all.

I originally opened the post based on remembering a story told to me by the missionaries when I was investigating. I was happy to get the answers that allowed me to find the points on line. When I read the scriptures listed in the bible I can see how it lends it self to the LDS church. I can also see how it 'cancels' out other religions. A lot of these points were reasons I had issues with other Christian Churches growing up, I just didn't realize it at that time.

It is on that ground that we non-members see deficiencies and oddities.

It is on these same grounds that I find other religions to be factious and I pity those in that place, at the same place I am happy to see people makes steps to HF though what ever means they have

John 10

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

12 He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.

13 He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep.

As an example, this clearly tells me that if someone is paid to be a Shepard instead of from the heart that the job will not be done well and the wolf (Satan) will tempt and succeed. On this basis, when someone gives part of themselves to the church without accepting physical reward (Spiritual Rewards are completely different) the lord has the ability to be more present. So in the same breath, those that are paid to preach are not doing the Lords work at all.

[Hemidakota]

I believe so

Did anyone find this for you?

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

1. Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

3. The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

5. The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)

6. The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

7. The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

9. The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

12. The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

13. The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

14. The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

15. The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

17. "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Edited January 27, 2009 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

The 17 Points of the True Church are meant to be viewed with an LDS viewpoint and with understanding of LDS-specific doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and other revelations of the Restoration. We see the verses that the points reference not as the source for understanding the doctrines, but merely as examples supporting them.

That is to say, the doctrine in point 16 (practicing baptism for the dead) does not stem from 1 Corinthians 15:16 & 29, but is merely referenced there. The doctrine itself stems from numerous revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets, some recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants.

It's unfair to look at the 17 points as a definitive case for the validity of Mormonism or its doctrines; it is not unfair to look at them as a supporting argument. To assume that the 17 Points represents comprehensive LDS theology is to do our religion disservice.

The 17 Points, if they are indeed accurate, point to the Mormon church as being the true Church of Christ. If that is the case, then the true Church receives revelation anew in each dispensation, and each dispensation receives special revelation meant to help the people understand the will of God. If that is the case, then this new revelation would build upon previous revelation and help clarify it and clear away the confusion that time, cultural differences, and apostasy has wrought. If that is the case, than all previous scripture must be viewed in light of new scripture for either to be truly inspired by God. If that is the case, than any doctrine understood (by prophets) through this synthesis of ancient and modern scripture would supersede doctrine gleaned from only one source or the other, whether the one who gleaned said doctrine was a prophet or not. If that is the case then it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a Mormon and a member of any other Christian faith to agree on finer points of doctrine in most cases (no matter how spiritually 'in tune' both are, and no matter how much they are striving to find unity in their understanding).

We see a prime example in August's point about paid ministry. Based on the records we have, it is difficult to definitively prove one way or the other if the first Christian ministers were paid or not, as we do find examples of both in the New Testament (there are passages that seem to condone paid ministry, as well as passages that seem to condemn it). It is easy enough for anyone in good standing before God to come to either conclusion, if they only had the information that the Bible and history makes available to us.

What's the point of all this? I refer you now to skalenfehl's most recent post, which beautifully summarizes the real import and proper use of the 17 Points.

For me is one point only...it is when the Christ calls you by name and answers those pertinent questions of the soul.

[sakuragirl]

Yes with your help I managed to find it on line. Thank you

[Maureen]

It is on these same grounds that I find other religions to be factious and I pity those in that place, at the same place I am happy to see people makes steps to HF though what ever means they have...

Respect for Diversity of Faiths - LDS Newsroom

sakuragirl, what is your opinion on the above article?

[prisonchaplain]

I'm going to restate my concern with these types of lists--if they are misunderstood.

A. I could just as easily publish a post that's titled "16 Signs of the True Church." Afterwards, I would post the 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God, repleate with Scripture references. All those verses would seem to lend credence to the points, and one could conclude, "Wow! The Assemblies of God is the true church." IMHO, there is no list of X number of points that will point one to THE true church. On the other hand, we can examine a church's doctrine and compare it with Scriptures to see if it teaches truth or not.

B. These lists are sometimes presented a religious urban legend. Allegedly some non-believer approaches the Bible from an objective or scientific perspective and just happens to develop a list of obvious truths that comport with what I or you already believe. Aha! My church must be true--because the scientist (atheist, etc.) [who happens to know nothing about how to study Scripture, btw] says so.

[sakuragirl]

sakuragirl, what is your opinion on the above article?

I fear you may have chosen to take me out of context....the term i chose was Pity

To feel pity or compassion for; to have sympathy with; to compassionate; to commiserate; to have tender feelings toward (any one).

Pity is a form of compassion and I also said that whatever brings people closer to HF. I feel it in the same way that if you saw anyone go without a knowledgeor a substance that you would wish them to have it. I have experienced many religions from being raised Catholic, to looking at Wicca, Agnostic and even researched Buddha. I accept that people have the opportunity to worship as and how they please, however I am entitled to feel for those that have not had opportunities and wish for them to experience all that can be offered. I also did not state that people did not have choices only that I found things to be different. When someone speaks in the 1st person they are expressing their personal beliefs and not those for others. I should ask how you feel about the article?

[Maureen]

...I should ask how you feel about the article?

A good statement that reflects what I think is a fair request is:

Thus, members of the Church do not view fellow believers around the world as adversaries or competitors, but as partners in the many causes for good in the world.

I don't see how pity or viewing fellow believers of other faiths as contentious and hostile will make it easy to become partners for good.

M.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Maureen

[FunkyTown]

I'm going to restate my concern with these types of lists--if they are misunderstood.

A. I could just as easily publish a post that's titled "16 Signs of the True Church." Afterwards, I would post the 16 Fundamental Truths of the Assemblies of God, repleate with Scripture references. All those verses would seem to lend credence to the points, and one could conclude, "Wow! The Assemblies of God is the true church." IMHO, there is no list of X number of points that will point one to THE true church. On the other hand, we can examine a church's doctrine and compare it with Scriptures to see if it teaches truth or not.

B. These lists are sometimes presented a religious urban legend. Allegedly some non-believer approaches the Bible from an objective or scientific perspective and just happens to develop a list of obvious truths that comport with what I or you already believe. Aha! My church must be true--because the scientist (atheist, etc.) [who happens to know nothing about how to study Scripture, btw] says so.

Lists like these remind me of the parable of the sower and the seeds. One could come up with a list of hundreds of necessary aspects of the True Church, and if someone based their testimony upon that soil they would quickly wither and die. There is only one thing your testimony can be based on: The firm rock of the soil of Jesus Christ. From there, you can grow and learn new things, but that must be the basis of testimony.

[Book_of_Mormon_Warrior]

Lists like these remind me of the parable of the sower and the seeds. One could come up with a list of hundreds of necessary aspects of the True Church, and if someone based their testimony upon that soil they would quickly wither and die. There is only one thing your testimony can be based on: The firm rock of the soil of Jesus Christ. From there, you can grow and learn new things, but that must be the basis of testimony.

Helaman 5

[12] And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

[FunkyTown]

Helaman 5

[12] And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

You -are- the Book of Mormon Warrior.

[Moksha]

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[Guest calvaryoakville]

So many things to learn from this thread but I don't want to confused myself.

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