What is the need for atonement?

[ninjormon]

First of all I am kind of ashamed for even needing to ask this question, I have read it in a book before but dont remember which one and I read an average of 10 pages an hour, so to remember which one would probably take weeks of searching, so I thought I would ask here.

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

[bytor2112]

Check out this talk by Cleon Skousen......very interesting.

The Atonement, by Cleon Skousen reperiendi

[Guest tomk]

There is an excellent talk on "why" the Atonement was necessary by the late Cleon Skousen:

A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement Cronk

This same talk is available for purchase. Let me know, or just google it.

It boils down to this. God is a god of law. He, too, must obey eternal law, just as we must do in order to return back to Him.

But after the Fall of Adam and Eve - returning back to Father became impossible. Death and Sin were not things we could conquer, unaided.

So the Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to "atone" (make as one). Christ suffered so horribly in the Garden and on the Cross that the "intelligences" which comprise all matter were moved with compassion. Not for our sakes, but for His sake, we can be exalted and brought back into the presence of the Father again. Christ is our advocate. He can claim us as "His" - He earned the right to do this by the things He suffered.

Skousen does a much better job of explaining it than I do.

Consider this verse:

Mosiah 15: 9

9 Having ascended into heaven, having the bowels of mercy; being filled with compassion towards the children of men; standing betwixt them and justice; having broken the bands of death, taken upon himself their iniquity and their transgressions, having redeemed them, and satisfied the demands of justice.

Who is demanding justice? It's not God. It's not Christ. They are all about mercy. The entire Plan of Salvation is merciful!!!!!

The demands of Justice are the intelligences which comprise the universe. The things that ACT (intelligences) and the things that are acted upon (element) are the building blocks of all existence.

Now look at this verse:

Alma 42: 24

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.

The Atonement does not prevent punishment, it reverses the effects. Christ said that our sacrifice is to be a broken heart and a contrite spirit (we must be penitent, willing to obey). The verse does not say "none but the truly PERFECT are saved" !!!! It says "none but the truly PENITENT are saved" !!!! It's not about perfect performance, but rather about our relationship with Christ.

Does this help any?

[applepansy]

Yeah. . . what Tom said.

applepansy

P.S. I started a post, but Tom beat me to it and did a better job. My age is showing again

[Traveler]

First of all I am kind of ashamed for even needing to ask this question, I have read it in a book before but dont remember which one and I read an average of 10 pages an hour, so to remember which one would probably take weeks of searching, so I thought I would ask here.

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

The simple answer is because of the fall of Adam all mankind are fallen and thus cast out from the presents of G-d (the tree of life). Therefore there must be a "keeper of the way" to the tree of life and all must enter by that way. (See Genesis 3:24)

The Traveler

[Guest tomk]

Yeah. . . what Tom said.

applepansy

P.S. I started a post, but Tom beat me to it and did a better job. My age is showing again

Go ahead and post your thoughts and feelings!! We learn by sharing.

I did a lot of study and research on the Atonement -- BECAUSE I realized "I really don't understand it". And I still don't really understand it -- only as God chooses to reveal it to me, bit by bit.

A few excellent books on the subject are:

Not Left Comfortless: Books I've Read

of particular note are:

Amazon.com: The Infinite Atonement: Tad R. Callister: Books

Amazon.com: The Atonement of Jesus Christ: A study of the saving atonement of Jesus Christ: Kevan Kingsley Clawson, John Hopkins, Jaime Clawson: Books

and

Amazon.com: A Scriptural Discussion of Light: Allen J. Fletcher: Books

[Hemidakota]

What is law according to the scriptures? Who is the author of such? If GOD is not the author of the law but one who enforces the law, then why the need of an Atonement? What and who is Justice? When Lehi speaks of Intelligences, one to ACT and the other to ACT UPON, what does this have to do with the Atonement and Justice? Was it necessary for a sin-less man to accomplished this feat? Why?

Things that need further explanation in order to have a greater depth of understanding of the Atonement vice references. This subject is not to be taken lightly.

[applepansy]

I understand the basic need of needing the atonement because we ourselves have sinned distancing ourselves from God through a spiritual death and therefore needing Christ as an intercessor to atone for us as we could not do it for ourselves. And that once we accept then we are accountable but also covers all with lawlessness. I need help not on the what but why. If someone can get as technical as possible with the degrees of intelligence and universal laws it would be a great help.

My thoughts on this are two fold. One is that when "Adam fell that man might be" we all became condemned. Justice must be satisfied and the only person who could do that was someone without Sin - Jesus. We cannot return to our Heavenly Father's presence without the Atonement, nor without the Grace of Christ.

Second, the Atonement does something else for us. When we accept or embrace Christ's sacrifice for us personally, we soften our hearts. We in essence say "I can't do this alone." We change! When we soften our hearts and become more Christ-like it is easier to repent and its easier to forgive. All things become possible. This is where I believe the LDS doctrine of "faith without works is dead" comes in. We have to accept and show our acceptance through obedience to the laws and ordinances of our Heavenly Father.

I know that without Christ's Atonement and applying it in my life, my faith wouldn't have been as strong as it is. The Atonement a living thing for me. I do not have the words to describe the feelings I have when the Atonement is working in my life.

I know that what I need to do now is to continue to identify areas I need to improve on and continue to repent and let the Atonement work in my life even more. I want to be as perfect as I can achieve (I have a long way to go) so that Christ knows how much I love Him and how much I appreciate His sacrifice on my behalf.

applepansy

[ninjormon]

Thank you bytor2112 and tom, This is exatly what I was loking for, I have been talking to a coworker that I found out was a muslim sheik in charge of their temples in nevada, utah, and arizona and I just couldnt find the words to explain when I needed them but I told him I would study, I got him to admit Thomas S Monson is a prophet and start reading the BOM, and many other things things pertaining the gospel. I found out that a lot of Muslims have closer beliefs to us than some Christians and are more open to discussion and acceptance of a lot of gospel topics.

[Guest tomk]

If you are working with an investigator...I would not even bring up Skousen's ideas.

Milk before Meat. And often what we think is Meat is still Milk.

[Traveler]

My thoughts on this are two fold. One is that when "Adam fell that man might be" we all became condemned. Justice must be satisfied and the only person who could do that was someone without Sin - Jesus. We cannot return to our Heavenly Father's presence without the Atonement, nor without the Grace of Christ.

......

applepansy

May I add something here? Not only is it necessary that Jesus be without sin but also it was necessary that he not be a partaker of the fall - thereby retaining his divine and G-dly titles that he could abide the presents of G-d the Father. Jesus is also the Mediator and voluntarily condescends below his divine station to suffer as a sacrifice for all that the fallen state of man requires for justice.

The Fall of man is the first great knowledge required for understanding of the Plan of Salvation that was the plan of God the Father from the beginning.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

Thank you bytor2112 and tom, This is exatly what I was loking for, I have been talking to a coworker that I found out was a muslim sheik in charge of their temples in nevada, utah, and arizona and I just couldnt find the words to explain when I needed them but I told him I would study, I got him to admit Thomas S Monson is a prophet and start reading the BOM, and many other things things pertaining the gospel. I found out that a lot of Muslims have closer beliefs to us than some Christians and are more open to discussion and acceptance of a lot of gospel topics.

I concur with Tom that Skousen's talk among our own membership is beyond their own understanding, let alone trying to present it to non-members.

[Moksha]

The atonement explains the sacrifice of Christ's death.

[Hemidakota]

To add, there is need to understand the terms, 'JUSTIFICATION' and 'SANCTIFICATION'. Do a advance search on this site for a complete writeup.

[ninjormon]

Yeah Tom milk before meat but a lot of non members already have thier fill of milk and need the training wheels taken off everyonce in a while, besides how would you explain the need for atonement to a Muslim? its easy to teach a Christian about it because they have accepted Christ, the hard part for them is to accept the rest of the teaching, I found out that Muslims already have a good understanding of a lot of our other doctrine that Christians reject.

Thanks Hemi I will

[ninjormon]

How do I do an advanced search? I thought I'd figure it out but its proving more difficult than I thought.

[Hemidakota]

Click on SEARCH, then ADVANCE.

[rameumptom]

Let me answer this from the perspective taught in the Book of Mormon. 2 Ne 2 teaches that we all have agency given to us through the atonement of Christ and the Fall. This agency allows each of us to choose who we will become. Become is the key word here.

The Fall physically and spiritually separate us from God.

The atonement has two components: the resurrection and the spiritual atonement/redemption. The physical resurrection comes to all mankind as a free gift, as we can read in Alma 11.

What many LDS and others do not understand is that the spiritual atonement also comes as a free gift, as well. Alma 11-12, Mormon 9, and many other scriptures state that through Christ's atonement we ALL will be brought into the presence of God. With that event comes an automatic judgment. It isn't that God will be sitting behind a judge's desk with robes on, waiting to slam the gavel down on us. It is that those who have not BECOME Christ-like will not be willing or able to accept the fullness of the spiritual gift. Alma 12 states that the wicked will wish the rocks to cover them up and hide them from the glory of God. Mormon 9 states that the wicked would be more miserable in God's presence than with the souls in hell!

There will be those who BECOME celestial, while others will become terrestrial, telestial, or even of perdition (a kingdom with no glory) (D&C 88) depending upon what they become and the laws they abide by. We are the ones who will choose how much of the gift of atonement we personally will receive.

Those without law are not responsible for the things they have not yet received. Once received, each individual will have to choose just how much law (celestial, terrestrial, telestial, none) he/she is willing to abide.

Faith and Repentance are key parts to the process of becoming. Without faith, we would have no need or desire to follow Christ. Without repentance, we would not desire to change our lives, forsaking past sins, and turning ourselves toward God.

I see the spiritual atonement in this manner: When we choose to follow Christ, to that level, we become one with him (and therefore, the Father). When the Book of Mormon states that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one, this is the form of oneness. Christ embraces us with His love and forgiveness. As he embraces us, we feel the Spirit burn within us, changing us. We become more like Christ, no longer desiring to do evil, but only to do good continually (Mosiah 4:1-5).

Becoming One with the Godhead was Christ's main teaching throughout his teachings to the Nephites (esp see 3 Ne 11-12). His "doctrine" is to become one with the Godhead and each other through faith, repentance, receiving ordinances (baptism), and receiving the Holy Ghost. These steps are not a one time thing, but a lifetime process. Jesus himself went from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace until he received a fulness of the Father (D&C 93).

The more we embrace Christ's atonement, the more He embraces us with his light/spirit (the Light of Christ) and fills us with that light (D&C 88, 93, Moroni 7) until we achieve a perfect oneness with Him.

When Jesus embraces us with His light, he embraces all of our good and bad. Our pains and sins become His, and He shares them with us, as He shares His love and forgiveness with us. In this sense, the atonement is on-going. It did not culminate at Gethsemane and on the Cross. Instead, that was the center point of an atonement that extends forever into the past, and forever into the future. It reaches back into the premortal existence, where the sons of God shouted for joy that Christ accepted the call to sacrifice, and where that same atonement gave us the agency to choose God's plan of salvation. And it will reach far into the future, after we have received our final judgment and resurrection - for his atonement and the Light of Christ will sustain all of us in the kingdoms we shall inherit.

[Misshalfway]

Well, without the Atonement there would be no salvation. Only payment for sin. Not only would the payment be sore and torturous for all of us, there would be no way to anything better. Justice would be satisfied and we would be forced to satisfy it, but there would be no salvation from spiritual death. We would simply have to suffer it.

[Hemidakota]

Hugh W. Nibley depicts atonement in this manner,

"There is not a word among those translated as 'atonement' which does not plainly indicate the return to a former state or condition; one rejoins the family, returns to the Father, becomes united, reconciled, embracing and sitting down happily with others after a sad separation. We want to get back, but to do that we must resist the alternative, being taken into the community of the 'prince of this world' (John 12:31)." ("The Meaning of the Atonement," p. 26)

[Dove]

Ninjormon,

The best understanding of the atonement I received was through throroughly reading the Book of Mormon several times. Maybe you're unable to do that in time to help your muslim friend; but, that is what I would suggest you do as soon as you can to understand it. Go to sacred scriptures before anything else to gain your understanding. The book of Mormon is pretty clear and concise in it's explanation of the fall and the necessity for the atonement to overcome the effects of the fall.

It seems like everyone here is doing a great job of answering your question....so I'll refrain from trying to answer it anymore deeply other than to suggest that you might study the fall and the atonement in the topical guide of the Book of Mormon for more information.

Best of Luck with your friend

Dove

[Dove]

May I add something here? Not only is it necessary that Jesus be without sin but also it was necessary that he not be a partaker of the fall - thereby retaining his divine and G-dly titles that he could abide the presents of G-d the Father. Jesus is also the Mediator and voluntarily condescends below his divine station to suffer as a sacrifice for all that the fallen state of man requires for justice.

The Fall of man is the first great knowledge required for understanding of the Plan of Salvation that was the plan of God the Father from the beginning.

The Traveler

Traveler,

How is it that Jesus was not a "partaker of the fall?" Could you clarify that and the ramifications of it for me? Yes, he was perfect, but, as far as I understand, he suffered all manner of temptation, yet did not give in to the temptation. He suffered all that we as mortals suffered, but still was perfect.....Wasn't he a partaker of all the opposition that took place as a result of the fall?

Thanks

Dove

[tubaloth]

The Atonement and Our Part in It - A. Theodore Tuttle

Feeling the Atonement - Jeffrey D. Keith

Why a Savior is Necessary, and Why Only Jesus Christ Could Qualify - Robert J. Matthews

Alma 34

[Maxel]

Traveler,

How is it that Jesus was not a "partaker of the fall?" Could you clarify that and the ramifications of it for me? Yes, he was perfect, but, as far as I understand, he suffered all manner of temptation, yet did not give in to the temptation. He suffered all that we as mortals suffered, but still was perfect.....Wasn't he a partaker of all the opposition that took place as a result of the fall?

I think I can help clarify. I hope I don't do Traveler a disservice by trying to help.

The Lord Jesus Christ was a partaker of the temporal effects of the fall by choice, but he was not in any way affected by the spiritual effects of the fall. That is, he suffered the temptations and weaknesses of the flesh, but at no time in his life gave in to the spiritual temptations that accompanied physical trials.

For example, during His time of temptation from Satan after His period of fasting for 40 days, he allowed himself to be tempted and afflicted by the physical consequences of hunger and thirst. However, even when Satan appeared and tempted Christ to turn stones into bread, Christ refused to use His spiritual powers for sinful reasons. He chose to live life as a mortal man blessed with immortal spiritual gifts.

He was tempted, but he did not fall into the trap of sin that is the otherwise universal heritage of the Fall. He was a partaker in that he was tempted, but he was not a partaker in that he did not give in to those temptations. As Traveler said, Jesus 'voluntarily condescend[ed] below his divine station to suffer as a sacrifice for all that the fallen state of man requires for justice'.

[rameumptom]

Christ suffered all the effects of the Fall. He was subject to death, both physical and spiritual. Due to his holiness and power, he was able to overcome both.

Please note that on the Cross, he cried, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

It was necessary that he was out of the presence of the Father completely, in order for him to complete the Atonement for himself and us. He died physically. He went to the Spirit World, where he condescended below all things, leaving the full presence of the Father, in order to rise above all things and lift all others with him.

Edited January 29, 2009 by rameumptom