Blind Obedience or Faith Obedience?

[Connie]

This has come up several times in a few threads, and i thought it might be interesting to discuss.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Faith Obedience

From above article:

"One of the sneaky ploys of the adversary is to have us believe that unquestioning obedience to the principles and commandments of God is blind obedience. His goal is to have us believe that we should be following our own worldly ways and selfish ambitions. This he does by persuading us that “blindly” following the prophets and obeying the commandments is not thinking for ourselves. He teaches that it is not intelligent to do something just because we are told to do so by a living prophet or by prophets who speak to us from the scriptures.

Our unquestioning obedience to the Lord’s commandments is not blind obedience. President Boyd K. Packer in the April conference of 1983 taught us about this: “Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. … We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see” (“Agency and Control,” Ensign, May 1983, 66).

We might call this “faith obedience.” With faith, Abraham was obedient in preparing Isaac for sacrifice; with faith, Nephi was obedient in obtaining the brass plates; with faith, a little child obediently jumps from a height into the strong arms of his father. “Faith obedience” is a matter of trust. The question is simple: Do we trust our Heavenly Father? Do we trust our prophets?"

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Believe All Things

From above article:

"Obedience is a fundamental law of the gospel. It is not only the demonstration of our faith but also the foundation of our faith. But the philosophical standard of the world holds that unquestioning obedience equals blind obedience, and blind obedience is mindless obedience. This is simply not true. Unquestioning obedience to the Lord indicates that a person has developed faith and trust in Him to the point where he or she considers all inspired instruction—whether it be recorded scripture, the words of modern prophets, or direct inspiration through the Holy Ghost—to be worthy of obedience.

The standard of the world is “I will move on a course only when its truth has been proven to me.” This standard contradicts the admonition to believe all things. Unfortunately, we are too often content to live with our reservations, assuming that believing most things is good enough."

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Testimony

From above article:

"In closing, I refer to the relationship between obedience and knowledge. Members who have a testimony and who act upon it under the direction of their Church leaders are sometimes accused of blind obedience.

Of course, we have leaders, and of course, we are subject to their decisions and directions in the operation of the Church and in the performance of needed priesthood ordinances. But when it comes to learning and knowing the truth of the gospel—our personal testimonies—we each have a direct relationship with God, our Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, through the powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. This is what our critics fail to understand. It puzzles them that we can be united in following our leaders and yet independent in knowing for ourselves.

Perhaps the puzzle some feel can be explained by the reality that each of us has two different channels to God. We have a channel of governance through our prophet and other leaders. This channel, which has to do with doctrine, ordinances, and commandments, results in obedience. We also have a channel of personal testimony, which is direct to God. This has to do with His existence, our relationship to Him, and the truth of His restored gospel. This channel results in knowledge. These two channels are mutually reinforcing: knowledge encourages obedience (see Deuteronomy 5:27; Moses 5:11), and obedience enhances knowledge (see John 7:17; D&C 93:1).

We all act upon or give obedience to knowledge. Whether in science or religion, our obedience is not blind when we act upon knowledge suited to the subject of our action. A scientist receives and acts upon a trusted certification of the content or conditions of a particular experiment. In matters of religion, a believer’s source of knowledge is spiritual, but the principle is the same. In the case of Latter-day Saints, when the Holy Ghost gives our souls a witness of the truth of the restored gospel and the calling of a modern prophet, our choice to follow those teachings is not blind obedience."

Okay, there are the articles and quotes. Have at!

[Guest tomk]

What is your question?

[Connie]

Just a topic for discussion.

[Guest tomk]

I understand, but usually discussion works best if someone begins with a question.

So far you have provided statements of belief from our leaders, none of which seem to evoke any need for discussion ( in my view ).

[Guest tomk]

Apparently our leaders do not advocate "blind obedience" but faith-filled obedience. Only our detractors accuse us of "blind" obedience.

Blind obedience does not bless us or help us gain knowledge. Mindless obedience is what Satan advocated, not God. God wants equals. God wants children who obey because they love Him and love truth and love serving others.

There is nothing to discuss, is there?

No trying to be mean, Connie. Maybe someone else will come along here who will feel the need to discuss this.

[rameumptom]

Yeah. What Tom said.

[LittleWyvern]

These definitions, to me, are a little odd. They seem to say that if we try to learn about a commandment that we're iffy about or try to gain a testimony of it first, we aren't trusting the prophets or God. When I hear of a commandment that I'm unsure of, my first thought is to pray for a testimony of it. When and if I get it, I know that this leads to a deeper understanding of the law and I have a better chance of following it. I could just trust whomever gave this commandment without trying to gain a testimony of it first, but my own experience has shown that this leads to a very shallow understanding of this commandment, and I usually have a lot of trouble keeping it because I've never received a testimony of it. Yes, I know that I shouldn't have a problem with any of the prophet's commandments if I have a testimony of the prophet, but at least to me, I find it very beneficial if I gain a testimony of any commandment that I may be struggling with.

Some people may interpret this as me not trusting the prophets, or thinking their commandments are not worthy of obedience (and therefore would discourage my efforts to gain a testimony of a commandment I'm struggling with), but this isn't the case at all. I just simply find it easier to obey a commandment I have a testimony of. This may be different for every person; so, this method is simply one that works for me. Your millage may vary.

EDIT: Your OP puts us in an awkward spot. When you post Ensign articles and tell us "have at it," what are we supposed to say? Any contrary opinion will be labeled as against the doctrine of the church and squashed. All I'm trying to do with this post is share my personal experiences with this concept.

Edited February 12, 2009 by LittleWyvern

[Connie]

I agree, Tom. There really SHOULD be no need for discussion. Perhaps in that case this would go better in the Share Forum.

I have, however, seen many LDS people accusing other LDS people of blind obedience.

[Guest tomk]

I agree, Tom. There really SHOULD be no need for discussion. Perhaps in that case this would go better in the Share Forum.

I have, however, seen many LDS people accusing other LDS people of blind obedience.

I see.

Well, good luck with this thread. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

There are LDS members who blindly obey.

There are LDS members who do not blindly obey.

Being LDS is no guarantee of anything. If we do not get to the point where we obey out of love, we are nothing. Many of us are not there yet. I'm not there yet. But I do know that a relationship with Christ is the key to unlocking that love within me. There is no Charity without personal revelation, for only Christ can reveal His Kind of Love unto us...and the knowledge of how to serve another person as He would.

[applepansy]

Connie, I appreciate the time and effort you went to to post this. It needed to be said. Especially in light of the discussions lately that all end up in accusations of "blind obedience."

Regardless of whether there is discussion or not does not diminish the need for your post. There needed to be clarification and an understanding about the difference between blind obedience and faith obedience.

All I can add is my testimony that faith obedience does bring you to a greater knowledge of our Heavenly Father's plan for us.

Thank you,

applepansy

[Maxel]

Thank you, Connie. I can explain fuller here a post I made elsewhere that I now sorely regret posting because it was a gateway to contention, when it was simply not meant to be.

I posted elsewhere that I sometimes see Mormons advocating 'blind obedience'; a 'following without questioning'. I must state emphatically here, echoing Connie, that the two are not the same- in fact, in some cases they are dichotomous of each other. Following without questioning only becomes blind obedience when we refuse to go to the Lord with questions and feelings and put our trust in our Church leaders on the false notion of them being infallible, which they are not. Following without questioning becomes true faith when we go to the Lord with our questions (if we have any) and say 'thy will be done'.

My comment was to reflect on the occasional lack of interest in some of the LDS community (and no, I can't name anyone from these forums who I have seen do this) to go to the Lord to receive knowledge from Him about commandments.

I have found, in my life, the best pattern for receiving knowledge goes like this:

Receive commandment --> Follow commandment as faithfully as possible --> Ask the Lord 'why', that I may understand His will concerning my life more fully --> Study, Ponder, and Pray --> Receive revelation concerning the nature of the commandment --> Follow the commandment more perfectly than I could before.

An example of 'blind faith', as I meant it, would flow like this:

Receive commandment --> Follow it because the prophet said so, and only because the prophet said so, not taking the time to ponder it or understand it.

Blind faith is not built on testimony or communion with God, but on trust in man, albeit a godly, inspired man. If we trust the prophets without realizing our ability to trust them comes from the fact that they are inspired of the Lord and wear the prophetic mantle; if we trust them because they are merely the leader of the Church; then we have no root of our own and when temptation comes, we wither in the sun.

Oftentimes we must throw up our hands and say 'thy will be done' because we simply do not know the answers, or we acknowledge that we are reticent in following them. In the case of true faith, this happens very often.

I hope that helps clear up the situation.

Edited February 12, 2009 by Maxel
Correcting grammar

[Connie]

Thank you, Maxel. I must confess, i was hoping for a response from you. I love so very many of your posts. You always tend to say the stuff i want to say, but you are far more eloquent than i. :)

[Moksha]

When we speak of the necessity for obedience too much we sound rather cult-like. Sometimes when I hear it, I think of folks wearing robes with a blank look in their eyes, mechanically chanting "Free the Bhagwan".

The danger of that is that we become what we seek to emulate. Seems much better to emulate righteous individuals rather than emulating the automatons of other righteous individuals.

[Janice]

I wanted to find a section of LittleWyvern's post to single out, but I couldn't. It's all too good. I can add nothing, so I won't.

These definitions, to me, are a little odd. They seem to say that if we try to learn about a commandment that we're iffy about or try to gain a testimony of it first, we aren't trusting the prophets or God. When I hear of a commandment that I'm unsure of, my first thought is to pray for a testimony of it. When and if I get it, I know that this leads to a deeper understanding of the law and I have a better chance of following it. I could just trust whomever gave this commandment without trying to gain a testimony of it first, but my own experience has shown that this leads to a very shallow understanding of this commandment, and I usually have a lot of trouble keeping it because I've never received a testimony of it. Yes, I know that I shouldn't have a problem with any of the prophet's commandments if I have a testimony of the prophet, but at least to me, I find it very beneficial if I gain a testimony of any commandment that I may be struggling with.

Some people may interpret this as me not trusting the prophets, or thinking their commandments are not worthy of obedience (and therefore would discourage my efforts to gain a testimony of a commandment I'm struggling with), but this isn't the case at all. I just simply find it easier to obey a commandment I have a testimony of. This may be different for every person; so, this method is simply one that works for me. Your millage may vary.

EDIT: Your OP puts us in an awkward spot. When you post Ensign articles and tell us "have at it," what are we supposed to say? Any contrary opinion will be labeled as against the doctrine of the church and squashed. All I'm trying to do with this post is share my personal experiences with this concept.

[Guest tomk]

Connie, I appreciate the time and effort you went to to post this. It needed to be said. Especially in light of the discussions lately that all end up in accusations of "blind obedience."

Regardless of whether there is discussion or not does not diminish the need for your post. There needed to be clarification and an understanding about the difference between blind obedience and faith obedience.

All I can add is my testimony that faith obedience does bring you to a greater knowledge of our Heavenly Father's plan for us.

Thank you,

applepansy

Well said, apple!! :)

[Guest tomk]

Connie:

I want to publicly apologize to you if I have said anything to offend you, or if I have come-off as a pompous, arrogant, you-know-what.

Please let me know if you hold any hurt because of my words.

Tom

[pam]

Connie, I appreciate the time and effort you went to to post this. It needed to be said. Especially in light of the discussions lately that all end up in accusations of "blind obedience."

Regardless of whether there is discussion or not does not diminish the need for your post. There needed to be clarification and an understanding about the difference between blind obedience and faith obedience.

All I can add is my testimony that faith obedience does bring you to a greater knowledge of our Heavenly Father's plan for us.

Thank you,

applepansy

Apple I totally agree with you. To start a thread to perhaps just get us thinking..is good. After all that's what this site if for. To be uplifting. Whether there is a discussion or not...doesn't matter.

[AngelLynn]

I know the truth and the beliefs of the gospel. Sometimes I have troubles explaining them and sometimes I have to go over them and study again. I know that the famous line of detractors is that we follow our leaders as sheep. Although it is ironic to note that the Savior refered in His parables that He is the shepard and we are His flock. That means that we are humble, that means we are also teachable.

However, the Lord also advised that we be wise as serpants yet harmless as doves. Which does mean we need to study our doctrines and our teachings so that we are not caught off gaurd by the Devil. The internet is a wonderfull thing to have in this day in age. From this tool we can learn so many things espically the doctrines and teachings of the gospel. Unfortunetly, it also means that the Advisary also can use it to spread his lies and his deceptions.

It is intresting to note from the article:

Then President Lee added a warning when he went on to say that we may not always like what comes from the authority of the Church, because it may conflict with our personal views or interfere with some of our social life. However, if we will listen to and do these things as if from the mouth of the Lord Himself, we will not be deceived and great blessings will be ours.

I am sure we can think of many commandments the church has given in our current time frame. An example of this is of the current position the church has taken on Homosexuality. It has divided many on the issue.

But 1st Nephi 3:5 recalling Lehi's asking his sons to go after the Brass Plates

And now, behold thy brothers murmur, saying it is a hard thing which I have required of them; but behold I have not required it of them, but it is a commandment of the Lord.

It is not Monson or anyone else stating these commandments it is the Lord. And this is not Blind Obedience but the Faith we have in the Lord and His commandments.

Edited February 13, 2009 by AngelLynn

[pam]

That was awesome AngelLynn. Very well said.

[Maya]

I do get often this blind obedience thrown on my face on other forums.... They have heard said that LDS follow blindly .... so they follow blindly that accusition, without searching and learning about us first.

Yes we need to believe that the profet is a profet, but we dont always understand the whys or even need to understand them. God dont need to excuse Himself to us, but sometimes we are allowed to know why, if we ask. If someone dont ask she/he dont either want to know or need to know.

When I hear a new thing I always ask ... why? I dont need to go round asking, as I have noticed that all answers are inside me already, all I need to do is to search for the answer.

Sometimes God gives seemengly absurd commands. For exemple to allow the whole Israel wonder in the desert for 40 years... But He knew they needed that many years to humble themselves. I hope we can do it with less than 40 in the deseret....

Sometimes God gives us commands to find out if we want to obey Him or if we want to choose an other way.

Sometimes it is very difficult to choose... sometimes what is considered right in todays world may cause an eternal pain.

[Elgama]

I don't understand what is blind about understanding that God has greater understanding than yourself and teaches the prophets to teach us what we are ready to understand in 2009, surely you are more blind when you do not follow the light or the shepherd.

Sheep in ancient Israel followed their shepherd because they trusted him to keep them safe, and to know way better than they did. Rare breed and ancient breed sheep like referred to in the scripture are very different to the fluffy clouds on legs that we think of today.

-Charley

[LittleWyvern]

I suppose, then, it depends on whether somebody thinks the prophets are 100% infallible or not.

[Elgama]

I suppose, then, it depends on whether somebody thinks the prophets are 100% infallible or not.

I have a strong conviction that President Monson is a decent guy and heading in the right direction, he has more light than any other human living right now and that if I follow him I am not growing away from my Heavenly Father,

Is he 100% perfect NO but is he highly favoured of the Lord YES. Will he always make the right decision NO, but he is always going to make a decision with Light I do not have. I follow him because he is the shepherd. Like the primary song says follow prophet says he knows the way - doesn't say he is perfect just he is the one with the map

-Charley

[Connie]

I do not consider any mortal man infallible, but i do consider God infallible.

Doctrine and Covenants

Official Declaration 1

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

"It matters not who lives or who dies, or who is called to lead this Church, they have got to lead it by the inspiration of Almighty God. If they do not do it that way, they cannot do it at all..."

-Wilford Woodruff

So then i suppose it depends on whether or not someone believes that God is at the head of this church.

[LittleWyvern]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that there was a right answer to my last post, I just was trying to make the point that whether or not something is considered blind obedience depends mostly how one feels what the answer to my last post is. It's a matter of personal opinion, in other words.

Besides, I think somebody can believe that God is at the head of the Church and not think that prophets are 100% infallible. Nobody's perfect. Sure, God is perfect, but a perfect driver needs a perfect car to drive perfectly (say that 5 times fast).