Obama and Transparency: No More Need for Limbaugh

[Just_A_Guy]

Obama is asking for people who can't pay to go bankrupt. That means their credit is shot for seven years and this means for millions of people there credit rating will be shot all to heck and back. It means that our country will be frozen for seven years perhaps more. It's only going to make things worse not better.

I must confess my visceral disagreement with the above. The last thing people who demonstrably can't handle credit need, is more credit. If that means our economy needs to go through a few years of detox, so be it. The longer we try to keep this bubble alive, the more catastrophic will be its ultimate collapse. And sooner or later, it will collapse.

Aside from that, I must confess to feeling a little taken in. First Democrats argue for liberalization of bankruptcy laws so that people who need one can get a "fresh start"; but then they argue that people shouldn't even have to declare bankruptcy! What, exactly, is the end game in all this?

Edited February 19, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[talisyn]

I agree that the market should have been allowed to correct itself. The best thing Congress should have done was to repeal the law passed in about 2001 that allowed banks to go into the sub-prime market in the first place. There is no business too big to fail, especially businesses that have proven inept in the marketplace (financial Darwinism isn't necessarily a bad thing). I like Obama, I think he'll be a good president. I almost wish McCain had been elected though, then he could had dealt with the mess started before Obama was even elected to the Senate.

[bytor2112]

I do think the stimulus was needed. Although some of it I have to agree is junk. And this is coming from someone who is a democrat.

I am highly skeptical of the housing mortgague bill being put on the table. Obama is asking for people who can't pay to go bankrupt. That means their credit is shot for seven years and this means for millions of people there credit rating will be shot all to heck and back. It means that our country will be frozen for seven years perhaps more. It's only going to make things worse not better.

If stimulus was needed to jump start the economy the best way would have been through major tax cuts. The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world and cutting this rate would encourage economic growth. Allowing people to keep more of there income is much preferable than printing more money and putting our country so much deeper in debt that our great grand kids will still be trying to dig out.

People who bought more house than they could afford......sad, but the government shouldn't bail them out. Bad decisions equal bad consequences. That being said, if we are going to spend two trillion dollars....and I am so against it....but if we are, then I would much rather see mortgages get retired than banks being propped up and pork being funneled out all over the country. But that would make to much sense and help to many people and the government, controlled by Democrats or Republicans rarely does anything that makes sense.

[Just_A_Guy]

The US has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world and cutting this rate would encourage economic growth.

That, and the capital gains tax.

Remember, too, that in 2010 the estate tax goes away completely (to be resurrected in 2011). It will be interesting to see what effect--if any--that has on the economy, as heirs will have larger inheritances to re-invest (provided they don't use them to pay down debt).

[NeuroTypical]

Best of all, you don't have to rely on Limbaugh to tell you what's in it anymore. You can look it up yourself.

Elphaba is the second liberal I've heard sort of mention in an offhand way that life would somehow be better without a dissenting voice.

Elphaba, I'd like to give you the opportunity to expand on your comment. Could you clarify a little about how you would like the airwaves to look? Do you support the 'fairness doctrine' stuff we keep hearing about? Do you agree with the notion that we should have some law forcing airwaves to put on an hour of liberal talk for every hour of conservative talk? And finally, do you believe that such a law would serve mainly to silence conservative talk, as liberal radio shows have notoriously failed to gain large enough audiences to attract advertising sponsors, hence most program managers in their right minds shun liberal talk as a quick way to go out of business?

Just wanted to give you every opportunity to let us know where you stand on the issue of silencing the opposition.

LM

[AngelLynn]

If stimulus was needed to jump start the economy the best way would have been through major tax cuts.

And I disagree with that statement. Business are going out of business. If business and people are not making money, how in the world are they going to have a tax cut? A tax cut means they have to be working in order to qualify for it. If this was any other crises then I'd agree with a tax cut but so many people have been cut in their jobs and so many business are going belly up. I fail to see the logic in a major tax cut.

[AngelLynn]

I must confess my visceral disagreement with the above. The last thing people who demonstrably can't handle credit need, is more credit. If that means our economy needs to go through a few years of detox, so be it. The longer we try to keep this bubble alive, the more catastrophic will be its ultimate collapse. And sooner or later, it will collapse.

That is the problem in many ways. There has been a loss of credit in the market. So you're suggestion that what we need is more loss of credit. While I agree that society has gone hog wild on the credit market and there needs to be more withstraint. Freezing more credit for a good portion of the population will make things even harder for the economy to move and develop.

[bytor2112]

And I disagree with that statement. Business are going out of business. If business and people are not making money, how in the world are they going to have a tax cut? A tax cut means they have to be working in order to qualify for it. If this was any other crises then I'd agree with a tax cut but so many people have been cut in their jobs and so many business are going belly up. I fail to see the logic in a major tax cut.

Do you own a business? I do...two in fact. And your simply dead wrong. Where do you think the money comes from that the government spends?????? Taxes. What faster way to get money back in to the economy than to allow people to keep more of there hard earned money? Would you rather have a good job and lower taxes so that you could have a decent standard of living or a government handout and a barely sustainable lifestyle? Businesses come and go all of the time, the idea is to create an environment where businesses can grow and higher more people.

Corporate tax rates are ridiculously high. Cut the rates and businesses can expand and hire more people. The concept of owning a business is to make a profit. If, as a business owner I can produce more goods and services by employing more people to grow my business, imagine how many more people a business could higher if they weren't robbed by the federal government. Worried about bad ole big business not expanding the job market and keeping the profits? Tie the tax cuts to hiring and remember public traded companies are accountable to there share holders, people like you and I.

Remember the government doesn't make money, they print it, they spend it and they take it away. I am not debating the need for government safety nets, but the stimulus plan is not a stimulus plan. Do you follow business? Have you seen the markets reaction to the bill? Where is your logic?

[NeuroTypical]

If business and people are not making money, how in the world are they going to have a tax cut?

Businesses pay taxes whether or not they're making money, AngelLynn. Payroll, Social Security, tax on stuff they buy, tax on stuff they make, property/plant/equipment taxes, import and export taxes, a lot of other taxes.

There are businesses out there who are not currently profitable, but would be, if they could lighten their tax burden.

[bytor2112]

Taxes have a sour affect on economic growth. If a business is not earning a profit or it's profits have been cut, logic follows that it will raise the cost of it's goods and services and pass them on to the consumer. What else might they do???

Well, a small business owner like myself, might decide to make budget cuts like, not using a cleaning service to clean my office or a yard service to maintain my office landscaping or my home landscaping, I might even stop using a pool service to maintain my pool. Maybe I will stop eating out for lunch and maybe I will make my car last another year or two rather than buying a new car. The list could go on and on, hopefully you see the point. It affects everybody.......... More disposable income means that I can keep my cleaning ladies, my yard people, my pool service and buy a new car or two and eat out for lunch if I choose. Who benefits????? Everyone.

[Elphaba]

Elphaba is the second liberal I've heard sort of mention in an offhand way that life would somehow be better without a dissenting voice.

No, I am not the second, or the third or the 230,023,002, because I never said any such thing. In fact, it is the exact opposite of what I believe.

You’re conflating my advice not to listen to Limbaugh into my suggesting life would be better off without a dissenting voice. It’s a straw man, as I have never said any such thing.

In fact, let me be very clear so people who enjoy Limbaugh don’t twist my intent into something it’s not, as you have in this post:

The First Amendment gives Limbaugh, and his ilk, every right to say what he does, and it gives every American the right to listen to him, and to believe everything he says.

I would never, ever, take any of those rights away, as they are fiercely guaranteed by the First Amendment. If those who know me don’t understand my passion for the First Amendment, this should make it obvious.

What I have said is that people should not listen to Limbaugh for accurate information, which is my right to say as protected by the First Amendment. And I stand by my statement.

But passionately disagreeing with Limbaugh, and encouraging others not to listen to him does not equate to me wanting him to be silenced, by the government or anyone else.

And when President Obama uses his guarantee to free speech as outlined by the First Amendment, to tell people that if we ever want a chance to succeed, people need to stop listening to Limbaugh, he gets to say that. And I should get to agree with im without being accused of wanting to silence dissenting opinions.

Nor does Obama as he never said Limbaugh should be silenced; he encouraged people not to listent to him, and that is two very different things.

Could you clarify a little about how you would like the airwaves to look?

Exactly as they look at any given time.

Do you support the 'fairness doctrine' stuff we keep hearing about?

Absolutely not.

Do you agree with the notion that we should have some law forcing airwaves to put on an hour of liberal talk for every hour of conservative talk?

Absolutely not.

And finally, do you believe that such a law would serve mainly to silence conservative talk, as liberal radio shows have notoriously failed to gain large enough audiences to attract advertising sponsors, hence most program managers in their right minds shun liberal talk as a quick way to go out of business?

I have no idea, but it is possible, and I am vehemently against it.

I have heard on the right-wing talk shows that the liberals want the “fairness doctrine” returned, and I know there are some who do, including, I believe, Nancy Pelosi. I completely disagree with her, as happens often, but it is her right to support the doctrine, as guaranteed by the First Amendment. And I can assure you there are many liberals who adamantly oppose the return of the "Fairness Doctrine."

The problem with what you’ve written is that less discerning people think it’s all or nothing. If you dislike right-wing radio, the logical conclusion is you must be for the fairness doctrine, including silencing voices of dissent. Again, I'm sure there are people who agree with this, as is their First Amendment right. But not everyone, including this liberal, does.

Ultimately the people who are responsible for obtaining correct information are the listeners themselves. I listen to Limbaugh to hear what he has to say. I can’t stomach most of it, but I listen.

I also listen to Keith Olbermann to see what he has to say. I can’t stomach most of it, but I listen.

I go to many blogs, but left and right-wing, and obviously I am staunchly left wing, so I agree with more of the left-wing blogs. But I also find some issues in the right-wing blogs that I think at least have merit.

It’s the extremes I object to; and I doubt anyone would disagree Limbaugh tends to talk in extremes. However, do not even attempt to turn that into the false statement that I want his voice to be silenced. I do not, and I never said I did.

All of us, including radio talk show hosts, have the right to express ourselves as provided by the First Amendment of the Constitution. Even those who bloviate on and on and on about the evils of Obama, including the tactless playing of "Obama the Magic Negro," I found it disgusting and beneath the office of the president. Luckily, Obama has a far better temperament for these things than I, and knows how to ignore these petualnt rants.

At the same time, this does not mean I don't understand he has the right to play it, and it does not mean I think he should be silenced. I do not.

So when I say you don’t need to listen to Limbaugh for your information, it is a straw man to interpret that to say I want to silence dissenting voices.

That would be anathema to me.

Elphaba

[miztrniceguy]

I think the best stimulus would have been to send every TAXPAYER in America a check for $10k, which would be used to pay credit card debt, mortgages, car payments etc. The banks would then have that money, be making profits, use it to lend again....everybody wins, except politicians, cuz NO PORK!!!

[NeuroTypical]

So when I say you don’t need to listen to Limbaugh for your information, it is a straw man to interpret that to say I want to silence dissenting voices.

That would be anathema to me.

Fair enough.

[lilered]

Do you own a business? I do...two in fact. And your simply dead wrong. Where do you think the money comes from that the government spends?????? Taxes. What faster way to get money back in to the economy than to allow people to keep more of there hard earned money? Would you rather have a good job and lower taxes so that you could have a decent standard of living or a government handout and a barely sustainable lifestyle? Businesses come and go all of the time, the idea is to create an environment where businesses can grow and higher more people.

Corporate tax rates are ridiculously high. Cut the rates and businesses can expand and hire more people. The concept of owning a business is to make a profit. If, as a business owner I can produce more goods and services by employing more people to grow my business, imagine how many more people a business could higher if they weren't robbed by the federal government. Worried about bad ole big business not expanding the job market and keeping the profits? Tie the tax cuts to hiring and remember public traded companies are accountable to there share holders, people like you and I.

Remember the government doesn't make money, they print it, they spend it and they take it away. I am not debating the need for government safety nets, but the stimulus plan is not a stimulus plan. Do you follow business? Have you seen the markets reaction to the bill? Where is your logic?

While I agree in general with the above, I can't help but insert the following. Our Federal Government (Congress) continues to write checks against tax dollars they do not in fact have. Congress continues to spend Billions of tax dollars on "Pork" items (nice to have), while millions of taxpayers suffer from job loss etc..

Bottom Line, everyone is struggling but Congress continues business as usual.

Which in my opinion makes a great case for line item veto power for the President.

I understand the position taken concerning cutting Corporate Tax Rates, however this alone is not the magic bullet. Business still has to have a market to sale their products to. They still have to be able to compete in the market place for customers who are willing and able to buy their product. Unless a business is growing and making a profit, they cannot afford to hire more employees.

There seems to this mindset that has developed that Business is the enemy and what is needed is more government entitlements for our citizens is the order of the day. The very principles that made this country attain its greatness is now viewed as somehow a bad thing and Governement is responsible for our happiness and well being.

[nox88]

I’m new to this site and I have seen a lot of Inspiring threads, but this BLIND support of this destroyer of the fruit of the womb (OBAMA) makes me want to cry. THIS BABY killer started his career in the house of Bill Ares, a man who thinks that those reasonable for 9/11 DID NOT DO ENUGHF. OBAMA participated in a church were racism and hate towards AMERICA AND WHITE MALES is preached has are BROTHERS preach faith, repentance, charity. The mainstream media of America is evil. Why would that which is evil push so hard for the victory of Mr. Obama? History always repeats itself and it usually starts with those who feel exempt from those 3 wise words. My president is the Constitution and my king is Christ. I choose not to follow this man.

[FunkyTown]

I’m new to this site and I have seen a lot of Inspiring threads, but this BLIND support of this destroyer of the fruit of the womb (OBAMA) makes me want to cry. THIS BABY killer started his career in the house of Bill Ares, a man who thinks that those reasonable for 9/11 DID NOT DO ENUGHF. OBAMA participated in a church were racism and hate towards AMERICA AND WHITE MALES is preached has are BROTHERS preach faith, repentance, charity. The mainstream media of America is evil. Why would that which is evil push so hard for the victory of Mr. Obama? History always repeats itself and it usually starts with those who feel exempt from those 3 wise words. My president is the Constitution and my king is Christ. I choose not to follow this man.

Yeah! And George Bush, Sr. and Ronald Reagan gave weapons to terrorists(During the Iran Contra affair). It's time we removed all...

Y'know? I'm not even going to finish this. Your words are filled with bile, half-truths, exaggerations and outright lies. There's no blind support for Obama on here. If you feel that's the case, you are sadly mistaken. Or a troll who has no idea what he's talking about. Time will tell.

I disagree with the stimulus bill. I think Obama is an honorable man making a mistake. I hope what he believes will happen will come to pass, but it's safe to say this is a generally stupid idea. However, it's not new. The New Deal came about during the Great Depression. It's not a new idea.

If you have an issue, take it up with your congressman. If you don't and you want to ignore the voice of the people, the majority of your country who elected them, then you are akin to the Kingmakers in the Book of Mormon. You claim to be doing righteous good when in fact you are destroying liberty.

[nox88]

.

If you have an issue, take it up with your congressman. If you don't and you want to ignore the voice of the people, the majority of your country who elected them, then you are akin to the Kingmakers in the Book of Mormon. You claim to be doing righteous good when in fact you are destroying liberty.

__________________/

You put me in the same category as THE KINGMAKERs of the book of Mormon because i feel Obama is everything our founding fathers warrned us aginst??????? You know nothing about me. Every day i try to be more like our lord. the book of morman change my life i would be nothing without it i love the phrophets and try my best to become like them please dont think of me like that

[Just_A_Guy]

Nox, he qualified that statement by saying "if you ignore the voice of the people", which was probably a response to your ambiguous statement that "I refuse to follow this man".

If, by your statement, you mean that you will refuse to observe any laws that come down from his administration--then yes, unfortunately, you've got a lot in common with the Kingmen.

If that's not what you meant, then his statement doesn't apply to you. So why take offense? :)

[nox88]

the fact that i said the "Constitution" is my president i think answers that justaguy. and i guess "support" is a better word than "follow". so I CHOOSE NOT TO "SUPPORT" THIS MAN. The constitution comes from god and i feel he poses a threat to it.

[Just_A_Guy]

On a slightly related tangent:

Obama gets schooled in Foreign Policy

Apparently, it is not possible to accomplish all America's foreign policy objectives just by talking and NotBeingBush™.

But hey, at least we don't need to worry about Iran enriching uranium anymore. (They have all they need.)

Edited February 20, 2009 by Just_A_Guy

[Palerider]

I just listened to all 3hrs of Limbaugh today......:) and proud of it...

[Moksha]

I’m new to this site and I have seen a lot of Inspiring threads, but this BLIND support of this destroyer of the fruit of the womb (OBAMA) makes me want to cry. THIS BABY killer started his career in the house of Bill Ares, a man who thinks that those reasonable for 9/11 DID NOT DO ENUGHF. OBAMA participated in a church were racism and hate towards AMERICA AND WHITE MALES is preached has are BROTHERS preach faith, repentance, charity. The mainstream media of America is evil. Why would that which is evil push so hard for the victory of Mr. Obama? History always repeats itself and it usually starts with those who feel exempt from those 3 wise words. My president is the Constitution and my king is Christ. I choose not to follow this man.

What a horrible post.

[Palerider]

Tone it down a little or I will close this thread....:)

[nox88]

its nice to meet you guys too.....

[LittleWyvern]

Whoah. For a second there I thought I had accidentally gone to rr-bb instead of lds.net.

...Weird.