Lds Church And Saudi Arabia

[Traveler]

There is some question about the LDS religion being legal in Saudi Arabia. I contacted a friend still in Saudi Arabia and the following is what I was told about the current status as of today.

The legal status of the LDS church is some what “under the table”. Although the LDS church is a legal religion in Saudi Arabia it does not enjoy the same status as the Moslem faith. As pointed out by Curvette that to convert from the Moslem faith one can be punished by death. Following are some of the things the LDS faith is able to do:

1. Hold public meeting without supervision. 12 years ago the maximum number allowed at a meeting was 35, currently the number is unlimited.

2. Teach members of your own household or relatives that are not LDS and convert them to the LDS faith. This is assuming that they are not Moslem. This has also been relaxed recently and LDS are allowed to teach and convert foreign visitors that are not Moslem.

3. Collect tithing and other offerings and export the money from Saudi Arabia

4. Bring LDS leaders to Saudi Arabia for the sole purpose of meeting with other LDS members - for events like stake conference.

5. Perform Baptisms to those that request to be LDS (but are not Moslem)

6. Build an official stake center (building for only that purpose) on the east cost on property within the RAMCO (joint USA Saudi oil corporation) compound. There are 5 wards in Saudi Arabia. One in Juddah, one in Riyad and 3 on the east cost. In addition there are several branches - all on the east cost.

7. Give blessings to LDS members in Saudi hospitals.

LDS are not allowed to do the following:

1. Pass out LDS publications or other printed material to Moslems

2. Answer questions that an Moslem ask about the LDS faith. This has been relaxed and LDS are allowed to answer questions that can be answered with a “Yes” or “No”. The standard answer is to say “I did not come to Saudi Arabia to answer any questions about my religion.” I do know from my Arabic friends that it is not uncommon for them to visit LDS web sites to get information but they are very scared about posting anything themselves. Also it is a violation of their faith to copy anything where G-d is spelled out - which is one reason I don’t.

3. Build any religious buildings on Saudi soil - the exception is the Stake Center on REMCO property.

Some other points of interest: There is also a Stake in the United Arab Emirates with 12 unites (stakes and branches). These are listed in the global locator at the official LDS web site. UAE is much more liberal with the LDS legal status than Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s are very aware and curious about the LDS in particular that we do not use any statues, pictures or crosses as part of our worship services or displayed to identify where we worship (one reason that the LDS faith is legal). Our welfare and relief programs. That for our number of members we will have over 60,000 missionaries most of which are 19 years old. That we do not feel connected to the Catholic or Protestant Churches and that we believe in a living prophet.

The LDS church leadership has agreed not to make active efforts to convert any Moslems world wide. The agreement is that if a Moslem request membership while then are not in a Moslem country (like Saudi Arabia) we can baptize them.

Because the legal status is sort of under the table I cannot prove any of the above information but before you call me as a liar and condemn me to Hell based on your over active imagination and desire to shake thing up; I suggest you talk to an active LDS member that has been to Saudi Arabia within the last 10 years.

The Traveler

[Snow]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jan 12 2005, 06:23 PM

Because the legal status is sort of under the table I cannot prove any of the above information but before you call me as a liar and condemn me to Hell based on your over active imagination and desire to shake thing up; I suggest you talk to an active LDS member that has been to Saudi Arabia within the last 10 years.

The Traveler

Come on now Travelator,

I don't think that anybody condemned you to hell. I think we teased you a bit but hell? No.

[StrawberryFields]

I have a friend who lives in my ward and she has been here for about 8 years. From Travelers description it appears that things have lightened up since the time that she has been here. She told me that they had to meet in total secret at the time when she lived there.

[Guest curvette]

From that description, it sounds like they have made allowances for LDS foreigners living in Saudi Arabia to practice their religion there, but not Saudi citizens. Is that correct?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 13 2005, 01:20 PM

From that description, it sounds like they have made allowances for LDS foreigners living in Saudi Arabia to practice their religion there, but not Saudi citizens. Is that correct?

I would say your assesment is 100% correct.

The Traveler

[Sean1427]

A bit late to this thread I freely admit, but two points I'd like to share regarding Traveler's information. First, I'm a western member of the LDS Church who lives in Saudi, and while I know that Jews spell the Enlgish name for deity as G-d, I've never seen Muslims do it. In fact, it's the opposite. Perhaps I need to give some background. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. As such it is the word Muslims, Christians and Jews use whose native language is Arabic. When Saudi newspapers for the large English speaking community make reference to deity, they always translate it as God. Yet the opposite is true in the US where newspapers, news programs, talk radio hosts, TV anchors, and anyone you can find whose not Muslim all refer to Allah by the Arabic name and never use the English name. This is either done out of ignorance, i.e., they simply don't know, or intentionally puttine a wall up between "our" God and their "god." It's mindboggling.

The second point is that there is no stake in the UAE/Emirates. While I don't know how many units there are iin the Emirates, I do know that the UAE has officially recognized the stake which means that the Church can purchase property and meet openly. However, the stake includes far more than the UAE. Territorially, it's the largest stake in the world stretching about 1,200 miles east to west and 1,500 miles north to south. And it's been operating for a long, long time. Think big and you may get the picture. And it's the largest stake in the ME and is legal even though we've been asked to function out of the public eye. As a sidebar, how many can attend at one time depends on the location of the unit and the unit leader. But it is completely legal in its operaton.

[Hemidakota]

There is some question about the LDS religion being legal in Saudi Arabia. I contacted a friend still in Saudi Arabia and the following is what I was told about the current status as of today.

The legal status of the LDS church is some what “under the table”. Although the LDS church is a legal religion in Saudi Arabia it does not enjoy the same status as the Moslem faith. As pointed out by Curvette that to convert from the Moslem faith one can be punished by death. Following are some of the things the LDS faith is able to do:

1. Hold public meeting without supervision. 12 years ago the maximum number allowed at a meeting was 35, currently the number is unlimited.

2. Teach members of your own household or relatives that are not LDS and convert them to the LDS faith. This is assuming that they are not Moslem. This has also been relaxed recently and LDS are allowed to teach and convert foreign visitors that are not Moslem.

3. Collect tithing and other offerings and export the money from Saudi Arabia

4. Bring LDS leaders to Saudi Arabia for the sole purpose of meeting with other LDS members - for events like stake conference.

5. Perform Baptisms to those that request to be LDS (but are not Moslem)

6. Build an official stake center (building for only that purpose) on the east cost on property within the RAMCO (joint USA Saudi oil corporation) compound. There are 5 wards in Saudi Arabia. One in Juddah, one in Riyad and 3 on the east cost. In addition there are several branches - all on the east cost.

7. Give blessings to LDS members in Saudi hospitals.

LDS are not allowed to do the following:

1. Pass out LDS publications or other printed material to Moslems

2. Answer questions that an Moslem ask about the LDS faith. This has been relaxed and LDS are allowed to answer questions that can be answered with a “Yes” or “No”. The standard answer is to say “I did not come to Saudi Arabia to answer any questions about my religion.” I do know from my Arabic friends that it is not uncommon for them to visit LDS web sites to get information but they are very scared about posting anything themselves. Also it is a violation of their faith to copy anything where G-d is spelled out - which is one reason I don’t.

3. Build any religious buildings on Saudi soil - the exception is the Stake Center on REMCO property.

Some other points of interest: There is also a Stake in the United Arab Emirates with 12 unites (stakes and branches). These are listed in the global locator at the official LDS web site. UAE is much more liberal with the LDS legal status than Saudi Arabia. The Saudi’s are very aware and curious about the LDS in particular that we do not use any statues, pictures or crosses as part of our worship services or displayed to identify where we worship (one reason that the LDS faith is legal). Our welfare and relief programs. That for our number of members we will have over 60,000 missionaries most of which are 19 years old. That we do not feel connected to the Catholic or Protestant Churches and that we believe in a living prophet.

The LDS church leadership has agreed not to make active efforts to convert any Moslems world wide. The agreement is that if a Moslem request membership while then are not in a Moslem country (like Saudi Arabia) we can baptize them.

Because the legal status is sort of under the table I cannot prove any of the above information but before you call me as a liar and condemn me to Hell based on your over active imagination and desire to shake thing up; I suggest you talk to an active LDS member that has been to Saudi Arabia within the last 10 years.

The Traveler

I can attest it is a fact. I wrote a faith experiencing moment and left under the testimony threads concerning my own accord with a well known prominent family in Saudi Arabia 20-years ago. The military have opened the doors to this country. We can also open other doors if our members live the gospel according to Jesus Christ.

What I can add here, any member being a devote Muslim, needs permission from not only from the Mission President but also from the First Presidency.

Traveler, even China has the same policy. I do expect for the premier may again stop in Salt Lake before returning to China this coming month. We can give credit to our late beloved prophet Gordon B. Hinckley with the PR influence with the government of China.

Thanks Traveler for this post. It brings back old memories of such great people.

[Hemidakota]

I have a friend who lives in my ward and she has been here for about 8 years. From Travelers description it appears that things have lightened up since the time that she has been here. She told me that they had to meet in total secret at the time when she lived there.

They meet on the compound. There is no real secrecy about it. It is usually done with all devotional members of the any faith.

[pam]

I can attest it is a fact. I wrote a faith experiencing moment and left under the testimony threads concerning my own accord with a well known prominent family in Saudi Arabia 20-years ago. The military have opened the doors to this country. We can also open other doors if our members live the gospel according to Jesus Christ.

What I can add here, any member being a devote Muslim, needs permission from not only from the Mission President but also from the First Presidency.

Traveler, even China has the same policy. I do expect for the premier may again stop in Salt Lake before returning to China this coming month. We can give credit to our late beloved prophet Gordon B. Hinckley with the PR influence with the government of China.

Thanks Traveler for this post. It brings back old memories of such great people.

Hemi before you start thanking Traveler about his post, keep in mind it was posted 5 years ago. Things may have changed and Sean was able to give an update to it.

[Hemidakota]

Thanks...but his assessment still stand today. My close connection with [military] members today in that country, along with those living in Iraq, and Afghanistan, are still allow to meet on Sunday.

[Sean1427]

Regarding the statement that it was the US military that opened the doors to Saudi--while some of the early members might have been military, most of the early members were just members from all over the world who ended up living in Saudi Arabia for business purposes. Some think that it was the Gulf War that got the Church into Saudi, yet the Church has been there functioning as early as the early 1970s and it's been part of a stake for at least 30 years, long before a US military presence came on the scene.

[pam]

Sean has anything changed in regards to proselytizing?

[Sean1427]

Ah, one other thing I might add. The stake center is not on the ARAMCO compound, which is essentially the largest American "city" outside the US. Traveler was doing the best he could with what he had to work with. And you won't find much on the Church in that part of the world. But I've lived and worked in Saudi since before 9/11, which predates Traveler's post, and the stake center's never been in Saudi on the ARAMCO compound or anywhere else. It's actually in Bahrain, which is just across the causeway from the Dhahran/Aramco area, about 10 miles away. Bahrain, like the UAE, is one of the countries that has recognized the Church.

[LocalFarms]

This thread has reminded me of a freind I had back in Job Corps. He was a muslim refugee from Iraq (first gulf war). I was amazed at how similar our faiths were and the fact that he knew more about the LDS religion than my mainstream christian friends that grew up here in the U.S.

[Hemidakota]

Regarding the statement that it was the US military that opened the doors to Saudi--while some of the early members might have been military, most of the early members were just members from all over the world who ended up living in Saudi Arabia for business purposes. Some think that it was the Gulf War that got the Church into Saudi, yet the Church has been there functioning as early as the early 1970s and it's been part of a stake for at least 30 years, long before a US military presence came on the scene.

Sean, stake area will incorporated any area until it meets up to boundaries of the nearest stake boundaries that surrounds it. That could be in Bahrain to Israel border, far north to Turkey, or deep south to Yemen.

But to date when the doors open, using your statement, we could go back to even earlier influences when the land was set apart 1800s when Orson Pratt was sent to Israel. Or other GAs made the same attempt later after this date. Another side based on your statement, foreign workers have been in the land for quite sometime. Americans and the British were running oil wells long before the 70s and had influence Saud Royal family positively and negatively.

China was the same way. Members always been in China and Hong Kong area long before PR attempt to open the doors of China, but to what influence the government to relax the religion toleration is another story.

Thanks again Sean...

[Hemidakota]

Ah, one other thing I might add. The stake center is not on the ARAMCO compound, which is essentially the largest American "city" outside the US. Traveler was doing the best he could with what he had to work with. And you won't find much on the Church in that part of the world. But I've lived and worked in Saudi since before 9/11, which predates Traveler's post, and the stake center's never been in Saudi on the ARAMCO compound or anywhere else. It's actually in Bahrain, which is just across the causeway from the Dhahran/Aramco area, about 10 miles away. Bahrain, like the UAE, is one of the countries that has recognized the Church.

I use to love visiting Bahrain. What I did notice, is the lesser degree of Islam toleration of its own religion and dealing with foreigners.

[Sean1427]

I just sent off an e-mail and found your quesiton Pam. No, nothing has changed regarding proselytizing, which is interestingly the same policy in Israel. Oddly, I had one of the strangest callings ever--the branch mission leader in a country where you can't proselytize. The GAs refer to the Church in that area as beying beyond the fringes of the Church, which it really is. It's not in the mission field per se. We've been told, however, that our misssion is to gather the saints together. This gets kind of complicated, but it is similar to China. If you get a job in Saudi, you can't just call SLC and ask where your local unit is. They won't tell you anything. I lucked out by asking a second question which was of help--who was the area president that presided over the church in Saudi? But most LDS who arrive, don't know where the local units meet and don't have any contacts. The job of members is to search them out. And, for the most part, you can't just attend church unannounced. You have to have an interview with the local authority and sign a letter stating that you went to them, not the other way around. The church simply does not want the appearance of having proselytized. You can teach Christians, including Christian Arabs, but you can't seek them out. They have to come to you. And Traveler's info is still valid that you can't really talk about religion. If anyone asks you a question, you have to use wisdom as to how you answer. We're not supposed to be talking about religion. However, we've been told that the greatest missionary work more often than not involves just being a good friend and example. The whole experience reminds me a lot of the experience of the sons of Mosiah. I especially think of Ammon whose first desire was to simply be the king's servant and allow a time for trust to be developed and for things to change. By the way, our best "missionary" happens to be Muslims, who believe that God has revealed his gospel to all people through a founding prophet. This Muslim friend of ours does things we could never do, and he does it as a Muslim.

[Sean1427]

Hemi, regardign the stake boundaries you need to be aware that things don't work the same there as elsewhere. There are distinct boundaries to the state but it's not because the stake is meeting up to the bouncaries of any other stake. When I first went there before 9/11, we were the only stake inside an area stretching from northwest Africa to Vladisvostok in eastern Russia, and from southern Yemen to the Arctic Circle. The stake had it's distinct boundaries, but it was entirely surrounded by a vast terrirotory in which no other stake existed.

You're correct that government leaders were also there who helped in establishinng the Church. They were there with those from numerous lands who were working there. The point I was trying to make, however, was that it was not the military alone, nor even mainly, that helped get the Church established there. It was simply members gong into those parts of the world for employment reasons.

Like you, I enjoy Bahrain. It's much more relaxed than Saudi. But then Saudi has places that are more relaxed than other places in Saudi. Where I live is considered liveable by many westerners, close to heaven by many Saudis, and more like Soddom by many of the more fundamentalist Muslims. Oddly, Saudi reminds me a lot of Utah, which I hope doesn't offend anyone from Utah.

[Sean1427]

Local Farms, what you wrote reminds me of Elder Howard W. Hunter's experience with a high ranking official in the Egyptian government, who of course was Muslim. He said that out of all the Christian denominatons, the only ones who came close to understanding Muslims were the Mormons. He then said that if a bridge were ever to be built between Islam and Christianity, it would have to be built by the Mormons. I would hope so. Unfortunately, since 9/11 I've found that many American LDS are still very much a product of their culture and end up viewing Muslims the same way many of those our detractors view us, which is something we don't appreciate and rightly so. Regarding the influence of culture, I'll have to try to find a talk given in Gen. Conf about 5 years ago. It was great--his entire talk was about the tremendous yet subtle control that our culture has over us. You might like it. But Saudi Muslims love Mormons. Of course, when I told them about my ancestors who were polygamous but with the wrong kind of partner (a mother and her daugther at the mother's insistence), they thought that was pretty bad, but the fact remains that Muslims do appreciate Mormons. It's odd, in one way, because they believe that Muhammed was the seal of the prophets, i.e., that last of them. Because of this, they don't believe in any prophets after Muhammed, which would rule out Joseph Smith and everyone else. And yet, they accept us and consider us the only Christians who come close to understanding their religious views and practices.

[pam]

You'll have to look farther back for that conf talk than 5 years ago as he died 15 years ago. I'll look for it too.

[pam]

Richard G. Scott gave a talk about cultures in 1998 and quotes President Hunter. Not sure if this is what you are talking about:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Removing Barriers to Happiness

[Sean1427]

My mistake, Pam. I was writing quickly which was my mistake, but I didn't mean to imply that Elder Hunter gave the talk I was referring to. found Elder Hunter's experience in a book on Mormons and Muslims, which mighth actually be the title. But the talk I as referring to was given about five years ago. The speaker of the conference address was an Elder Stone or Stern or who knows? I can't remember his name at the moment. He's a Seventy and one most members likely don't know. If you search at LDS.org, search for the words culture and puppet. It might help. I'll look, too.

[Sean1427]

Bingo! Found it! It's entitled "Zion in the Midst of Babylon" by Elder David R. Stone. It shows up in the 2006 Ensign, which means it was given in the April conference. The URL is

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Zion in the Midst of Babylon

It really is a wonderful talk. I could share story after story of how I judged wrongly not realizing just how much my thinking was affected by the culture I came from. I hope you enjoy it.

[pam]

Zion in the Midst of Babylon

[Sean1427]

Sorry, I can see it didn't let me post the URL. I'm new to the site and just learning how things operate. But you know where to find it.